218 replies to this topic

[Robinhood78]

The6thMessenger, on 31 October 2017 - 11:52 PM, said:

There's still like mobility based, positioning based, and strategy based skill on the game. Skill isn't just about putting shells, beams, missiles, or bolts down range. Come on.

There's already a game that does that. It is called chess. If I wanted to play chess I would just play chess.

[El Bandito]

davoodoo, on 01 November 2017 - 02:42 PM, said:

You really want to avoid novels for tactical inspiration.

If i followed 40k novels i would claim space marines use no cover, terminator armor can jump and do backflips, marine squad can destroy ******* spaceship and create dow3, universally reviled as absolute abortion of the series.

Novels are pretty dramatic but given free reign ppl wont fight like in there.

On the other hand, BT novels do not have mechs poptarting/snap shooting with pin point accuracy, or constantly fighting near 100% heat with no drawbacks. There is immersion in the novels, something MWO sadly lacks.

[Insanity09]

I could see having an improved HUD if you had the gear for it. Basically, any sensor package (BAP, CAP, TC#) would give you suggested aiming information (lead direction and approximate bearing angle for the shot) it would still be up to you to notice and use that information, and it would still allow you to target specific parts of the enemy.
Sadly, such a thing might also further encourage using a single weapon type. <shrug>


As far as any form of auto-aim... No. That's cheating.

[Trissila]

Anjian, on 01 November 2017 - 05:39 PM, said:

All high tech weapons in the real world would auto-aim, so we should expect realistically, that a real world mech would. This is not to mention the ability to self identify targets and threats, even prioritize which is the most dangerous.

In War Robots there is also aim locking, or better yet, aim-smoothing, but that's because you're playing on a phone sized screen, with buttons on glass, which makes it harder to see and more difficult to aim precisely. The aim AI also has a mind of its own, so you end up throwing your lock from an intended target to a non intended one which can be a wreck if you are trying to finish off a target. Do note you can turn off auto-aim if that is a problem with you. The autoaim works differently across weapons, lightning type weapons are more aggressive in their self aiming and tracking, which makes them suitable against fast dashing bots.

I would think you played the fifth series? ACV or ACVD?

In the PvP, due to the autoaim, you spend more time concentrating on your flying and dodging, as well as rushing behind the skyscrapers or hills for cover.




No. 7 is news to me, since I have played ACV and ACVD in PvP mode.

The main reason why AC has autolock is that its a console game, and game controllers don't have the fast precision of a mouse.

Collectively, the use of auto-aim is a quality of life decision for non mouse users.

V/VD were a huge departure from the 12 (more, if you count Formula Front and the various PSP re-releases) AC games that came before them. I never played them with any kind of seriousness because by that point I'd given up on the series (4th gen and 5th gen proved pretty thoroughly to me that FROM had no desire to go back to 'Classic' AC), but they had a rock-paper-scissors system in place with damage types on armor and weapons. This solved some of the issues with weapons being non-viable (and also created entirely new issues, but that's another story).

In previous AC games, it usually came down to velocity. Especially in 4th gen, anything below X projectile velocity was non-usable against humans because you would never land a hit, thanks to having no actual control of your aim and the auto-lock leading not working against targets that could shift direction so quickly.

It's why you basically never saw most of the basic rifles in PvP battles in 3rd gen and earlier. They didn't have the velocity and/or the DPS to work under the lock system.

[adamts01]

El Bandito, on 31 October 2017 - 11:48 PM, said:

I have been advocating lock based accuracy for a long time. It will certainly help to curb snap shooting and peekabooing behavior, and encourage more face to face action--just like in the novels.

That sounds good for an auto-aim/fire rng kind of game but not a fps. Just for an example: You lock a target 100m in front of you and you can more accurately land fire on him. Do your weapons lose that accuracy for a miss? Because if they don't, then you could lock a guy right in front of you and then fire just past him and get the accuracy buff against a farther target. So you'd have to only apply that accuracy if your shots are close to the target mech? There are just too many instances where this could be a problem. I've settled on a variable CoF like every other game. You sprint or jump and your shots go everywhere. You crouch and you gain more accuracy. Obviously adjusted for MWO. Fire too many guns at once and your shots spread. Fire while airborne and your shots spread. This solves so many balance problems, boating, pop-tarting, insta-gibbing, bad hit boxes....

[El Bandito]

adamts01, on 01 November 2017 - 07:57 PM, said:

So you'd have to only apply that accuracy if your shots are close to the target mech? There are just too many instances where this could be a problem.

How so?

[InspectorG]

The6thMessenger, on 31 October 2017 - 11:23 PM, said:

So you think this would work? Would it be close to Battletech style combat? Would it be more or less fun?

Why not just take MegaMek and import MWO graphics?

Why not remove punching from Boxing and Boxers an get points by just touching each other?

Why not remove hitting from (American)Football and make them play FlagFootball to avoid concussions?

Why not hide the amount of weight Powerlifters lift at meets so its less about the numbers and more about the fun?

Why not just have MWO mechs on Rails like a rail-shooter, and not worry about WASD?

[Relishcakes]

All I can think of is..so you want the game to play itself?

[The Mysterious Fox]

sounds like a mobile game for your handphone, do we have something for BT for the phone?

[Vellron2005]

Personally, an auto-aim option would basically be a hack, since it's exactly the ability to aim (as well as position) that distinguishes good players from less experienced ones. Auto-lock would make it easier to blast targets with high alphas, and in my humble opinion, it would take away from the game..

Anyone who's ever played EA sports F1 game or any racing game, knows how much of the "realism" you loose if you engage auto-breaking or traction control.. This would kinda feel like that..

Although I understand the surprisingly good-natured drive behind the idea, I think it would kinda "dumb down" or "water down" the game.

Auto-aim / auto-lead where you just have to stand in front of the target and push a button, that would make things too easy for direct fire weapons, especially weapons like Gauss or PPCs..

I would not, however, mind a module/skill-like thing that would be like Artemis was in previous MW games, where it allowed you to target a specific component.

I would also be ok with just a motion indicator like in Star Citizen, or other space-sim games, which is auto-lead, but without lock.. It just shows you where the target is gonna be for it's current speed.

Although, knowing PGI.. such things would probably wreak havoc with hitreg..

[Dr Hobo]

Curccu, on 31 October 2017 - 11:49 PM, said:

So remove skill from the game...


NO FU**ING WAY!

Skill? What skill?

You hide behind a building peek out and puke a 90pt alpha to delete a mech,that's not skill.

That's just playing COD snipers with bigger hitboxes.

[Curccu]

Dr Hobo, on 02 November 2017 - 02:00 AM, said:

Skill? What skill?

You hide behind a building peek out and puke a 90pt alpha to delete a mech,that's not skill.

That's just playing COD snipers with bigger hitboxes.

Whether you like it or not but dishing out that 90 point alpha (and hold that beam in same component) and COD sniping are both skills. You may not like those or be good at them but they are still skills.

Edited by Curccu, 02 November 2017 - 02:12 AM.

[Dr Hobo]

Curccu, on 02 November 2017 - 02:12 AM, said:

Whether you like it or not but dishing out that 90 point alpha (and hold that beam in same component) and COD sniping are both skills. You may not like those or be good at them but they are still skills.

Im just gonna give ya crap because I can here,mostly in good jest though

It's still not skill tho it's just sitting in the open,spamming artillery strikes,and then Grouping all weapons to 1 and clicking away till you die of overheat or get striked back.

Then again I can't talk too much trash talk here..I run Catapults with LRMs..and some lights with LRMs..but then again I'm also getting my own locks at 2-400m..

Now for the serious part

But..you can't. Because of hitreg,lag and movement. And you're constantly alpha striking(something that was incredibly rare to do so,but you know,we don't have heat penalties). It's not fun fighting a team of snipers that hide in the back,especially when the maps we haven now,prohibit brawling.

Every time I see Polar or Frozen ****** come up again and again I just want to drive my mech off the edge of the map and suicide out of it.

Make Brawling Great Again!

Give us heat penalties,don't just increase the heat cap. Make ammo bins explode,make gauss rifles explode if you're overheating,punish people for constantly riding the redline,something,anything. It's just so goddamn boring now.

/rant.

[Willard Phule]

FupDup, on 01 November 2017 - 05:47 PM, said:

How is literal auto-aim any less of a crutch? It literally removes player input. The weapons would do everything by themselves.

Yes there are definitely more skills than just mechanical aiming, but auto-aim on every gun simply reduces the pool of skills you need by 1.

AH......haven't seen this suggested yet, but I'll toss it in....

We KNOW they have the ability to generate a random target location, they do it with Streaks and LRMs. What's saying the "autoaim" can't work that way as well? A lock is a lock, it means you're pretty much assured of a hit. Difference is, using the targeting computer puts you at the mercy of the system generating an aiming point that you can't control.

Toggling "autoaim" off (aka: Manual Override) lets you aim wherever you want. I still think there should be multiple crosshairs for each weapon system and each weapon system be given a different tracking speed based on location and weight. If you're using an LBX20 in a torso coupled with SRMs in the arms, unless the target is directly in front of you, the arms will track to the target first. That means you'll have to wait until the LBX catches up to get the full effect.

It also gives the sensor tree a purpose to others, besides LRM boats.

Edited by Willard Phule, 02 November 2017 - 05:38 AM.

[Willard Phule]

El Bandito, on 01 November 2017 - 05:55 PM, said:

On the other hand, BT novels do not have mechs poptarting/snap shooting with pin point accuracy, or constantly fighting near 100% heat with no drawbacks. There is immersion in the novels, something MWO sadly lacks.

Actually, I can't tell you the number of times where it says something like "he waited for a hard target lock, saw the crosshair go gold and hit the trigger stud. The Autocannon/PPC/Whatever did spectacular damage to the enemy's leg, severing it at the knee." The "lock" is on a random location, apparently, just like TT.

[adamts01]

El Bandito, on 01 November 2017 - 08:04 PM, said:

How so?

I'll try to re-explain now that I'm a little more drunk than before. There are two ways your proposal could work.

1) You lock on to a target and your weapon accuracy is only increased against that target. So any time you move your crosshairs off the target your shots spread. So a CT hit may be pixel perfect but a shot that goes between the legs spreads everywhere.

2) You lock on to a target and you gain an accuracy boost that could possibly apply to other mechs. How far do you have to miss before your shots spread? Can you get a lock on a target that just peeked in front of you, then shoot right past where your lock was and accurately hit a mech behind him with ECM?

I'm not opposed to locking for more accuracy, I just don't think it's that simple of a mechanic. Maybe your shots should exponentially lose accuracy the farther your crosshair is from the targeted mech, so manipulating the mechanic is much harder.

[El Bandito]

adamts01, on 02 November 2017 - 05:28 AM, said:

I'll try to re-explain now that I'm a little more drunk than before. There are two ways your proposal could work.

1) You lock on to a target and your weapon accuracy is only increased against that target. So any time you move your crosshairs off the target your shots spread. So a CT hit may be pixel perfect but a shot that goes between the legs spreads everywhere.

2) You lock on to a target and you gain an accuracy boost that could possibly apply to other mechs. How far do you have to miss before your shots spread? Can you get a lock on a target that just peeked in front of you, then shoot right past where your lock was and accurately hit a mech behind him with ECM?

I'm not opposed to locking for more accuracy, I just don't think it's that simple of a mechanic. Maybe your shots should exponentially lose accuracy the farther your crosshair is from the targeted mech, so manipulating the mechanic is much harder.

Except lock based accuracy and CoF are not mutually exclusive. Lock based CoF accuracy will ensure that further the target is, harder it is to hit one section with all your weapons, even with lock. Which will take care of long range peekaboo meta.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 November 2017 - 05:46 AM.

[InspectorG]

Dr Hobo, on 02 November 2017 - 02:00 AM, said:

Skill? What skill?

You hide behind a building peek out and puke a 90pt alpha to delete a mech,that's not skill.

That's just playing COD snipers with bigger hitboxes.

Well, the answer isnt turning MWO into twitch Run 'n Gun anime no-scope-fest.

And if i recall, 3rd person was unwanted when MWO launched.

Seriously, go play Armored Core, then.

[InspectorG]

Dr Hobo, on 02 November 2017 - 02:25 AM, said:

...

But..you can't. Because of hitreg,lag and movement. And you're constantly alpha striking(something that was incredibly rare to do so,but you know,we don't have heat penalties). It's not fun fighting a team of snipers that hide in the back,especially when the maps we haven now,prohibit brawling.

Every time I see Polar or Frozen ****** come up again and again I just want to drive my mech off the edge of the map and suicide out of it.

Make Brawling Great Again!

Give us heat penalties,don't just increase the heat cap. Make ammo bins explode,make gauss rifles explode if you're overheating,punish people for constantly riding the redline,something,anything. It's just so goddamn boring now.

/rant.

Yes, better brawling plz!

Cure for Sniper mechs is to use a Light mech, sneak over, and rear core them. At least in Solo.

Poptart Summoners likely beat Lazer Snipers if i had to guess.

[El Bandito]

InspectorG, on 02 November 2017 - 06:09 AM, said:

Poptart Summoners likely beat Lazer Snipers if i had to guess.

Nah, the Summoner got its quirks significantly reduced. 30 spread damage vs. 70 is not on Summoner's favor.