218 replies to this topic

[InspectorG]

El Bandito, on 02 November 2017 - 06:13 AM, said:

Nah, the Summoner got its quirks significantly reduced. 30 spread damage vs. 70 is not on Summoner's favor.

When were the quirks nerfed? Damn, the Summoner had ONE THING! I guess we cant have nice things.

[El Bandito]

InspectorG, on 02 November 2017 - 06:16 AM, said:

When were the quirks nerfed? Damn, the Summoner had ONE THING! I guess we cant have nice things.

Its PPC quirks are a shadow of what it used to have. I believe its durability was also nerfed. It was a patch or two after the nipple hardpoints arrived, which made it OP in high level play.

[Xiphias]

Willard Phule, on 02 November 2017 - 05:19 AM, said:

We KNOW they have the ability to generate a random target location, they do it with Streaks and LRMs. What's saying the "autoaim" can't work that way as well? A lock is a lock, it means you're pretty much assured of a hit. Difference is, using the targeting computer puts you at the mercy of the system generating an aiming point that you can't control.

Toggling "autoaim" off (aka: Manual Override) lets you aim wherever you want. I still think there should be multiple crosshairs for each weapon system and each weapon system be given a different tracking speed based on location and weight. If you're using an LBX20 in a torso coupled with SRMs in the arms, unless the target is directly in front of you, the arms will track to the target first. That means you'll have to wait until the LBX catches up to get the full effect.

It also gives the sensor tree a purpose to others, besides LRM boats.

Do you want to completely kill the light class in this game? Because this is how you kill the light class in this game.

Lights are already the least played class in this game and auto aim would remove one of the few things that lights have going for them, the fact that they are hard to hit. Unless you want to give every light free stealth armor it would kill the class completely.

If mechs become like the turrets in incursion/FW I'll quit the game, and I've play lights since closed beta.

[adamts01]

El Bandito, on 02 November 2017 - 05:46 AM, said:

Except lock based accuracy and CoF are not mutually exclusive. Lock based CoF accuracy will ensure that further the target is, harder it is to hit one section with all your weapons, even with lock. Which will take care of long range peekaboo meta.

I get all of that, but how do you ensure those tighter shots go to the mech you have targeted, and not the guy standing next to him with stealth armor?

[Trissila]

adamts01, on 02 November 2017 - 04:12 PM, said:

I get all of that, but how do you ensure those tighter shots go to the mech you have targeted, and not the guy standing next to him with stealth armor?

You don't, short of coding locked-on shots to auto-seek the target regardless of movement and positioning.

Which is why auto-lock is a bad idea in Mechwarrior.

Games that have auto-lock systems are games that are based on movement. Not the tank-style, cover-to-cover, slow movement that Mechwarrior has, but movement with deep mechanics and lots of sudden direction changes. The Gundam Vs. games, one of the premier examples of lock-on-based combat, actually give a number of suits moves that specifically cut lock-on tracking so that they can dodge.

You're not dodging anything in Mechwarrior. Auto-lock is not a good idea for this setting with these movement rules.

[Alkabides]

Would making this a separate game mode to give it a shot hurt? Training wheels mode sounds like something alot of people would like to play.

[adamts01]

Alkabides, on 02 November 2017 - 04:36 PM, said:

Would making this a separate game mode to give it a shot hurt? Training wheels mode sounds like something alot of people would like to play.

Training wheels are only good if the skills learned translate to the real game. This crutch would hold people back and they'd never be competitive.

[El Bandito]

adamts01, on 02 November 2017 - 04:12 PM, said:

I get all of that, but how do you ensure those tighter shots go to the mech you have targeted, and not the guy standing next to him with stealth armor?

Just make it so that you lose lock instantly when your cursor moves away from the target. Easy.

[Anjian]

El Bandito, on 02 November 2017 - 06:10 PM, said:

Just make it so that you lose lock instantly when your cursor moves away from the target. Easy.

War Robots does this after it exceeds a certain cone. You can also perma lock the intended target if you don't want to which can be unlocked if you turn the robot away a full 90 degrees from the target or by manually pressing the button again.

Edited by Anjian, 02 November 2017 - 06:29 PM.

[adamts01]

El Bandito, on 02 November 2017 - 06:10 PM, said:

Just make it so that you lose lock instantly when your cursor moves away from the target. Easy.

How far away? What about the stealth mech standing right next to your target?

I think pinpoint damage has been at the heart of MWO's problems from the beginning, but lock-based accuracy is just too gimmicky for a fps, especially when a CoF like every other game uses would be a solution. I want electronic warfare more than most people, but I don't see much of an option for it in a 12v12 arena mode.

[Anjian]

Xiphias, on 02 November 2017 - 06:44 AM, said:

Do you want to completely kill the light class in this game? Because this is how you kill the light class in this game.

Lights are already the least played class in this game and auto aim would remove one of the few things that lights have going for them, the fact that they are hard to hit. Unless you want to give every light free stealth armor it would kill the class completely.

If mechs become like the turrets in incursion/FW I'll quit the game, and I've play lights since closed beta.

Auto aim, auto lock can be used as a negative balancing feature. I'm not referring to MWO in particular, too late to change that game, but in other games it can be used as a factor to improve survivability of certain targets.

How? In order to achieve hits and damage, the aim lock needs to be working. Key word is working.

You can make the aim lock take a longer time to achieve lock, lets say against smaller targets or targets with ECM.

You can make the aim lock take longer if the weapon being used is much more powerful or has a high alpha damage.

You can make the aim lock take shorter if the weapon is shorter ranged or has less alpha damage.

If the target is stealthier, the aim lock will only be possible at shorter ranges, making it impossible to aim lock at longer ranges.

You can also make adjust the angle and cone width of the aim lock, so you can maintain the aim lock let's say, a window of 20 degrees, but with a different weapon, make it like 40 degrees.

In other words, the developer can control these variables --- Range, Time, and Cone of Visibility --- alter them for different weapons and against different mechs, or against different circumstances for example, increased time lock if you use smoke or ECM.

Edited by Anjian, 02 November 2017 - 06:28 PM.

[El Bandito]

adamts01, on 02 November 2017 - 06:18 PM, said:

How far away? What about the stealth mech standing right next to your target?

I think pinpoint damage has been at the heart of MWO's problems from the beginning, but lock-based accuracy is just too gimmicky for a fps, especially when a CoF like every other game uses would be a solution. I want electronic warfare more than most people, but I don't see much of an option for it in a 12v12 arena mode.

Close to the hit boxes but bit outwards. Hence stealth mech right next to the target will only be affected to certain degree. Which is situational enough to not be a noticeable factor.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 November 2017 - 06:36 PM.

[adamts01]

El Bandito, on 02 November 2017 - 06:34 PM, said:

Close to the hit boxes but bit outwards. Hence stealth mech right next to the target will only be affected to certain degree. Which is situational enough to not be a noticeable factor.

That could work then, if your cone got larger the farther you were from a hitbox. But that would just make ECM basically mandatory.

[Dr Hobo]

InspectorG, on 02 November 2017 - 06:05 AM, said:

Well, the answer isnt turning MWO into twitch Run 'n Gun anime no-scope-fest.

And if i recall, 3rd person was unwanted when MWO launched.

Seriously, go play Armored Core, then.

Yeah,that was a dumpster fire,with all the garbage associated with it(like the consumables)

So leave it as is? Snipe away? In the coldest most sniper friendly maps?

**** that. If anything it already is a run and gun,just run to the next sniper spot,gun there,and run to the next as each enemy mech dies from one volley.

And Armored Core has sucked since 2.

InspectorG, on 02 November 2017 - 06:09 AM, said:

Yes, better brawling plz!

Cure for Sniper mechs is to use a Light mech, sneak over, and rear core them. At least in Solo.

Poptart Summoners likely beat Lazer Snipers if i had to guess.

That doesn't really work sadly,it can but only in a select few lights. And its kinda hard to do that in Frozen or Polar because it's so open with that no mans land in the middle(aka death valley for Frozen)

I haven't seen a Summoner in ages. They're a thing still?

[Anjian]

adamts01, on 02 November 2017 - 06:52 PM, said:

That could work then, if your cone got larger the farther you were from a hitbox. But that would just make ECM basically mandatory.

Or you can instigate a built in visual stealth factor like World of Warships does, which prevents detection and lock on with range determined by the target's signature radius. For example, a light mech with a strong stealth signature would result in lower detection ranges and longer lock on times, without adding an ECM module. If stealthy light mech equips ECM can be a problem, then we remove the ability to mount ECM.

Its way way too late for MWO to have any significant game mechanics and infrastructure changes. I am only discussing this from a theoretical standpoint and based on observing other games. In order for MW to have such a system and balance it out, assuming the mechs and weapons stats are on a spreadsheet, you would need the mechs to have a separate column for stealth values, and weapons to have lock in ranges, lock times and lock cones, so three additional columns, and how these new factors will interact requires a new mathematical formula. And then test all of them for balance. Just too much work. This is better on a new game you're making from the start.

Edited by Anjian, 02 November 2017 - 07:09 PM.

[InspectorG]

Dr Hobo, on 02 November 2017 - 07:06 PM, said:

Yeah,that was a dumpster fire,with all the garbage associated with it(like the consumables)

So leave it as is? Snipe away? In the coldest most sniper friendly maps?

**** that. If anything it already is a run and gun,just run to the next sniper spot,gun there,and run to the next as each enemy mech dies from one volley.

And Armored Core has sucked since 2.



That doesn't really work sadly,it can but only in a select few lights. And its kinda hard to do that in Frozen or Polar because it's so open with that no mans land in the middle(aka death valley for Frozen)

I haven't seen a Summoner in ages. They're a thing still?

I dont know about Group?FW play but in Solo its not super hard to rear-core sit back snipers if your Light-Fu is at least Yellow Belt.

Dunno about Summoners, havent touched mine in a minute. I though they were a Comp thing?

[Brain Cancer]

If MWO actually had variable levels of convergence?

Heck yes. Cause there's nothing like seeing Larry Laservomit being able to snapshot perfectly into a target he doesn't so much as have to hit the R key for.

But it doesn't. So no. I'd rather they stop frickin' nerfhammering lock-on weapons to begin with, because as it stands, making all weapons like them would ruin the game.

[adamts01]

Brain Cancer, on 02 November 2017 - 08:20 PM, said:

If MWO actually had variable levels of convergence?

I just hate the convergence concept, as we're back to some mechs being crippled by it while some like the Hunback don't care. Cone of fire is the way to go, plus there are millions of games to just copy and paste it from.

[qS Sachiel]

CK16, on 01 November 2017 - 11:25 AM, said:

Bring it, no other shooter in recent history has automatic pinpoint accuracy. Every gun has a reticle bloom, and when firing automatically recoil bloom, to aim perfectly one must take the time to aim, in WoT your circle, in shooters the time to zoom in (thay isn't always fast or accurate either. Also no other game allows you to move at full speed and shoot for ****. Hell some don't even like ypu shoot while spriting.

We need some aiming system that is not this pinpoint snap on target BS. Its not skill to move a dot onto a spot on your screen, no matter how fast you can do it....

No other shooter except just about every arena shooter there ever was?
UT
Quake
Doom
HalfLife
TF2 (most weapons)

And all this including that MWO has frequently been compared to FPS/Arena shooters, styled as a simulation.

I do find it humorous though, how certain members suggest that an auto-aim feature will prevent peeking or snap aiming (lol) somehow, that it will encourage a stronger caliber of tactics and gameplay, given that those very same posters have put up videos within the last month (albeit being recorded many months ago) detailing how a Catapault A1 Streak boat could core out far heavier 'mechs as the streaks would prioritize CT components first.
Then, in the same breath they compare the proposed system to WoT which not only allows for dumb-fire, but also locks onto center mass which is generally the most heavily armored and protected area in a game that encourages golden ammunition to guarantee penetration of armor. WoT is a game where direct hits commonly present zero or minimal ~1% damage! Such absurdity, it would be hilarious if they weren't serious.

Do you people even enjoy playing MWO? If so then why do you seek to change it so drastically? To deviate from the established gameplay medium? Also lol @ posters suggesting MWO has the most extreme heat mechanics (already adressed, but look no further than MW4)...

Further, go play a real simulation like DCS Blackshark Ka50, Warthog A10C, Flanker SU27. The amount of weapons which are automatic-acquire on target are very limited, and are generally indescriminate in which targets they acquire (see stingers in seeker mode). Sure you have a TVV, you have a bomb deployment reticle for munitions release, but there's no leading target.
The closest my memory allows you to get to a leading target would be AC10 in GUN mode, where you must manually identify the target by profile, tab through the pre-programmed reticule for the given target and then fit the wingspan of the target to reticle. There's no lead, but it gives an indication of range and elevation to target similar to what a PSO-scope or other graduated optic would provide.
There are several other 'hard-coded' leading reticles, if you could call them that, in that they are a fixed boresight with an indicator of target position ASSUMING a fixed level of speed, AoA, etc. If you're outside those bands, you must adjust. It's not a magical X that just floats in front of a complementary vector of your position and bearing/speed to that of target's.

The future might be different, but given the 'future-retro' feel that MW has always had, still don't feel it fits. Maybe play heavy gear.


ARE YOU NOT ENTERTAINED?

Edited by qS Sachiel, 03 November 2017 - 01:09 AM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

I'm gonna say no to full on auto-aim, but I would like to see a target-based convergence system. That is, weapons converge based on the distance to your target, not your whatever is under your crosshairs. No target? No convergence!

qS Sachiel, on 03 November 2017 - 12:47 AM, said:

No other shooter except just about every arena shooter there ever was?
UT
Quake
Doom
HalfLife
TF2 (most weapons)

To be fair, he did say recent history. Half Life and TF2 are ancient history as far as video games are concerned (TF2 and Episode 2 are just over 10 years old), and the new UT is still in pre-alpha. Quake Champions and Doom 2016 I'll give you. Just about every other major shooter released in the past few years have had some kind of recoil or movement accuracy penalty though.

Edited by Kaeb Odellas, 03 November 2017 - 01:01 AM.