48 replies to this topic

[Bud Crue]

Dear Chris,

So back in May you posted this:
https://mwomercs.com...l-tree-balance/

This is where you said:

"Inner Sphere to Clan balance in Win / Loss ratios between 'Mechs is the closest it has ever been within the game. With a global average performance difference of 6% between the factions. With the widest individual performance difference between 'Mech chassis' being 8%. While these numbers are the best that I have observed while part of the team, we are still of the opinion that these can be improved further."

Since then you did the June laser balance pass; the July pass where you messed with the skills tree a bit, ballistics, and still more energy tweeks; introduced rule of 8 quirks to those clan mechs missing them in August, the not so major balance pass of September; and then yet another pass to lasers in October.

So, I am just wondering how those percentages are looking now? Still ~6% faction balance? Still only 8% between being the widest individual performance difference between chassis? Any info, data, conclusions that you would be willing to share would be much appreciated.

[Khobai]

cant imagine the numbers have changed any

clan DHS still way better than IS DHS

clan XL still way better than IS XL

clan laser vomit largely remains unaddressed

[Bud Crue]

Khobai, on 02 November 2017 - 04:05 AM, said:

cant imagine the numbers have changed any

clan DHS still way better than IS DHS

clan XL still way better than IS XL

clan laser vomit largely remains unaddressed

They (Chris, Paul, Russ, etc.) all claim that PGI makes balance changes based on real data, which is derived from actual game play. If tech balance was "8%" in May, and they have made almost monthly changes to various weapons (mostly energy) since then, then I must believe/assume that the data is demanding those changes, and that those changes are impacting and presumably reducing the percent difference between techs that they are advertising/asserting as being "the closest it has ever been". I for one would like to know how much progress that their actions have presumably made after 5 months of "progress".

Certainly after 5 months of such data driven progress in this regard, balance must be better than it was even in May, both in terms of tech and chassis variation...right? Otherwise, why would they be doing these nearly monthly balance passes? I just want to know from the devs just how much better everything is according to their data.

[El Bandito]

Bud Crue, on 02 November 2017 - 03:52 AM, said:

So, I am just wondering how those percentages are looking now? Still ~6% faction balance? Still only 8% between being the widest individual performance difference between chassis? Any info, data, conclusions that you would be willing to share would be much appreciated.

In the Battle of Luthien event Clans had 12% more wins in Invasion mode, compared to the widely touted 6% before. So balance became arguably worse, if anything.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 November 2017 - 04:36 AM.

[Nightbird]

"With a global average performance difference of 6% between the factions. With the widest individual performance difference between 'Mech chassis' being 8%. "

He didn't mean faction play. Probably average score within QP/GQ.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Bud Crue, on 02 November 2017 - 03:52 AM, said:

"Inner Sphere to Clan balance in Win / Loss ratios between 'Mechs is the closest it has ever been within the game. With a global average performance difference of 6% between the factions.

If that was their data in May, it must mean that newtech made everything even closer with LFE and is UACs. Time to unfuсk the clans back people.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Nightbird, on 02 November 2017 - 04:37 AM, said:

"With a global average performance difference of 6% between the factions. With the widest individual performance difference between 'Mech chassis' being 8%. "

He didn't mean faction play. Probably average score within QP/GQ.

So the vindicator is only putting out 8% worse scores than the deathstrike?

Well, I'm off to go buy Vindicators guys.

I have a feeling that their individual performance metrics are off, because many times someone running the top meta mechs wouldn't also bring along a Vindicator, so they don't have any performance spread to show the difference that that pilot has in score between that meta mech and the Vindicator. Usually what happens is that said meta pilot will still make the Vindicator look good and then it ends up getting nerfed in the next patch out of nowhere.

[El Bandito]

Nema Nabojiv, on 02 November 2017 - 05:03 AM, said:

If that was their data in May, it must mean that newtech made everything even closer with LFE and is UACs.

Not even close. Skill tree made tech disparity even wider, as more and more IS mechs lose their quirks--Grasshopper being the most recent example, wholly undeservedly.

Nightbird, on 02 November 2017 - 04:37 AM, said:

"With a global average performance difference of 6% between the factions. With the widest individual performance difference between 'Mech chassis' being 8%. "

He didn't mean faction play. Probably average score within QP/GQ.

FP Invasion mode was even less imbalanced compared to current one though. In the last Tukayyid event Clanners had 55% win rate compared to 45% of IS. In the Luthien event Clanners had 62% win rate compared to mere 38% of IS--despite the IS side offered better prize. That is even worse.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 November 2017 - 06:00 AM.

[Magnus Santini]

I guess they may want to address the continuing releases of over-hardpointed clan mechs.

[Nightbird]

Nan, clan tech will always be superior. It's part of the lore. IS is hardmode. My KDR went from 6 is clans to 4.5 in IS.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

El Bandito, on 02 November 2017 - 05:49 AM, said:

Not even close. Skill tree made tech disparity even wider, as more and more IS mechs lose their quirks--Grasshopper being the most recent example, wholly undeservedly.

FP Invasion mode was even less imbalanced compared to current one though. In the last Tukayyid event Clanners had 55% win rate compared to 45% of IS. In the Luthien event Clanners had 62% win rate compared to mere 38% of IS--despite the IS side offered better prize. That is even worse.

I'm here from May 2015, and I don't remember any time the imbalance was AS BAD as now. It managed to drive me away from playing while I thought nothing will.

[Nema Nabojiv]

El Bandito, on 02 November 2017 - 05:49 AM, said:

Not even close. Skill tree made tech disparity even wider, as more and more IS mechs lose their quirks--Grasshopper being the most recent example, wholly undeservedly.

Except for, nothing happened with the grasshoppers in the latest patch, and a bunch of mechs got a mobility increase. Very welcomed in case with King Crab though.
Yet people prefer to remember the nerf which didnt even happened and forget the buffs that actually happened.

[El Bandito]

Nema Nabojiv, on 02 November 2017 - 06:24 AM, said:

Except for, nothing happened with the grasshoppers in the latest patch, and a bunch of mechs got a mobility increase. Very welcomed in case with King Crab though.
Yet people prefer to remember the nerf which didnt even happened and forget the buffs that actually happened.

I'm not referring to the latest patch, I am referring to the patch that stripped Grasshopper-5P of all its ST durability--back when the 5P was actually a decent contender against meta Clan mechs.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 November 2017 - 06:39 AM.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Ah, sorry, I wasn't playing back then. Guess it saved me from some frustration, like that guy who created a thread about how happy he is to join the game now and how he's ok with balance.

[Asym]

Bud Crue, on 02 November 2017 - 04:18 AM, said:

They (Chris, Paul, Russ, etc.) all claim that PGI makes balance changes based on real data, which is derived from actual game play. If tech balance was "8%" in May, and they have made almost monthly changes to various weapons (mostly energy) since then, then I must believe/assume that the data is demanding those changes, and that those changes are impacting and presumably reducing the percent difference between techs that they are advertising/asserting as being "the closest it has ever been". I for one would like to know how much progress that their actions have presumably made after 5 months of "progress".

Certainly after 5 months of such data driven progress in this regard, balance must be better than it was even in May, both in terms of tech and chassis variation...right? Otherwise, why would they be doing these nearly monthly balance passes? I just want to know from the devs just how much better everything is according to their data.

I suspect because the data is artifically influenced by events..... Events skew data greatly.... People play for say, 100 match score and do so my altering their load outs in crazy illogical ways just to get their 100 MS and die.......next game. I've seen that since I've been in MWO (almost 10 months now) and as a Six Sigma BB from a previous life, the data is screaming: "Danger Will Robinson. Danger !"

That data is tainted.... It doesn't represent the norrm.... So............................garbage in, garbage out and anything"balanced" using that data is going to compound the errors over time and create "ripples" where PGI is reacting to those "ripples" as we saw with SpL's, Mg's, SRM's, LRM',s etc..... Balance is not a normal condition where you have two completely different design and enployment specifications as MWO does: IS vs. Clan. Balance isn't achiveable and if they do force it, it is against the story line of the MW universe and will fail in the long run by alienating the niche's base.....

Edited by Asym, 02 November 2017 - 06:58 AM.

[R Valentine]

Given that the heat nerfs and CD nerfs only hurt IS, since clan high alpha vomit regards neither as particularly concerning, I'd wager it's gotten worse. The release of the Mad Cat Mk. II didn't help either, as Deathstrike is easily the current best clan assault mech, with the MCII-1 in a close second. Releasing another IS heavy with large, cube shaped hit boxes isn't going to help things either. The Thanny will be great until you realize it's hella hard to twist in, and opponents can basically shoot off any component they want since the shoulders and CT are clearly defined visually.

[Mechrophilia]

Nightbird, on 02 November 2017 - 06:18 AM, said:

Nan, clan tech will always be superior. It's part of the lore. IS is hardmode. My KDR went from 6 in clans to 4.5 in IS.

^Here's your metric.
NB is a good and consistent player who recently switched back to IS and this is what happened. Did he suddenly get bad?

[Angel of Annihilation]

Khobai, on 02 November 2017 - 04:05 AM, said:

cant imagine the numbers have changed any

clan DHS still way better than IS DHS

clan XL still way better than IS XL

clan laser vomit largely remains unaddressed

Except for the fact that those stats I came before the IS got their massive tech upgrade which whether anyone wants to admit it or not, has greatly improved the performance of many if not most of IS mechs. With an only 6-8% difference prior to the tech droping, combined with the Clan not getting mostly side-grade option with ATMs and heavy lasers, I think it is pretty safe to say that from a tech standpoint anyway, IS and Clan are pretty close overall.

Don't get me wrong, they are other types of imbalance obviously happening but it isn't the tech base at least.

[Lucky Noob]

Lets be real here Boys and Girls,

thoose Number where never true, and never will be.

Look at the Worlds Games and count the IS / Clan Mechs,

I think that tells all.

[Novakaine]

I've been here since 2011 .
When it was just IS vs. IS the games were more fun and memorable.
When the Clans were introduced it's been a quick slide down a oily hill.
PGI only looks at the numbers that fit thier perceived faulty matrix.
Every past event has been a overwhelming get Clan victory.
I have two IS defeat banners to show for it.
And all of a sudden Luthien is a tie.
I'm calling bull hockey.
Balance is a myth, but I'd settle for a little parity.
Numbers be damned 5 years game experience tells me otherwise.
For now I seem to be swinging my mace in DDO than playing this game.

Viktor Drake, on 02 November 2017 - 08:36 AM, said:

Except for the fact that those stats I came before the IS got their massive tech upgrade which whether anyone wants to admit it or not, has greatly improved the performance of many if not most of IS mechs. With an only 6-8% difference prior to the tech droping, combined with the Clan not getting mostly side-grade option with ATMs and heavy lasers, I think it is pretty safe to say that from a tech standpoint anyway, IS and Clan are pretty close overall.

Don't get me wrong, they are other types of imbalance obviously happening but it isn't the tech base at least.

p

Bull.