70 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

We have that thing in the game called lpl

10 dmg for 7.25 heat with 3s cooldown and 0.67s duration

You need to beat this if you want brawling energy weapon...

obviously

which is why I said snubnose PPC should do 11 damage or 10/1/1 damage for 8.5 heat

then it both outdamages the LPL and its PPFLD instead of 0.67 duration so it gives you better survivability than a LPL since you can fire and twist immediately. And its heat efficiency is only slightly worse

SNPPC would be pretty close to being worth using then

especially if PPCs could unlock a new hud disruption ability in the weapon skill tree

[Y E O N N E]

SNPPC combine with ballistics or missiles better than LPL and I believe that synergy should be fostered. Trying to focus on stand-alone sword-and-board efficacy is a fool's errand.

[Jun Watarase]

Catten Hart, on 03 November 2017 - 02:19 PM, said:

You clearly won't understand, or are willfully ignoring me, in a vain attempt to 'win' an argument. Let me inform you of how flawed your logic is.

On tabletop, a Large Laser does not lose damage until you start going past its long range. SN-PPCs and HGausses start losing damage outside of short range.

A Large Laser's damage profile was always 8short/8medium/8long.

A Snub Nose PPC's damage profile was always 10short/8medium/5long.

A Heavy Gauss Rifle's damage profile was always 25short/20medium/10long.

Now, the reason why PGI went with the tabletop stats of short range, as opposed to the max range of the latter two weapons, is because they already have a damage drop inherent in the stats. That is the drawback of these weapon systems on tabletop. If you gave them damage drop *Within the optimal range*, that would cease to be the actual optimal range. Tacking on a new Optimal Range measurement does not solve the problem.

And alternative way of looking at this, is that the Tabletop stats already had an 'Optimal range' measurement, that coincided with the short range of these weapons. That is why they receive a damage dropoff after short range.

Accuracy in TT is a thing.

[Jun Watarase]

Queen of England, on 03 November 2017 - 03:09 PM, said:

The problem with the SNPPC is pretty basic - it has a very similar role to the LPL, and isn't as good.

Just drop the SNPPC heat to 7.5 so its about as efficient as an LPL and it would do fine. You'd have a reasonable choice between a weapon with a travel time vs. a hitscan weapon with a burn duration.

3x LPL will still > 2x SNPPC.

[FupDup]

Jun Watarase, on 03 November 2017 - 05:51 PM, said:

3x LPL will still > 2x SNPPC.

Well, the triple LPL is taking up more weight and heat while being in the same range bracket.

Though really, this just highlights the problem with pulse lasers in their current form. They overlap in roles with other weapons, such as normal/ER lasers and in this case the IS LPL competes with the Snubber for the same thing. Just another reason why wubs should be turned into full-auto DPS weapons to stand out more.

Edited by FupDup, 03 November 2017 - 06:20 PM.

[Nightbird]

Jun Watarase, on 03 November 2017 - 05:51 PM, said:

3x LPL will still > 2x SNPPC.

21 tons versus 12 tons

[Cato Zilks]

Nightbird, on 03 November 2017 - 06:17 PM, said:

21 tons versus 12 tons

He was noting them at their ghost heat levels

[stealthraccoon]

SNPPC’s sound cooler than an LPL, tho!

In my opinion the snubby peeps is an ideal weapon for an Urbanmech - same PPFL damage as an AC10, and none of the ammo issue. I’m using SNPPC, MPL and 2 LMG’s on my -R63(S) to great effect tonight - plus it just looks right!

Yeah, a bit toasty, but it can be managed. Now my only complaint is that using a SNPPC and 2 LPPC’s sets off ghost heat, which doesn’t make sense.

Edited by stealthraccoon, 03 November 2017 - 10:09 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Just drop the SNPPC heat to 7.5 so its about as efficient as an LPL and it would do fine.

That doesnt make it different enough from a LPL though. It just makes it more similar to the LPL.

SNPPC should outdamage the LPL because its a friggin PPC not a laser. it should also run hotter than a LPL. PPCs should run hotter than their laser counterparts because PPCs are the hottest weapons there are.

SNPPC should do 11 damage or 10/1/1 damage so it outdamages the LPL. 8.5 heat is fine for that.

Also the ghost heat limit on SNPPCs, PPCs, and ERPPCs should be 3 not 2.

And PPCs should have a skill node unlock that makes them disrupt HUDs. when you hit someone with a PPC their HUD should get scrambled for 0.5-1 seconds and all their targeting info lost and reset. and they should be unable to lock-on or target enemies for the duration of the disruption.

Then SNPPC would be different enough from LPL and worth using as well.

Edited by Khobai, 03 November 2017 - 10:46 PM.

[Cato Zilks]

We keep talking numbers, so here are they are:

Name__Dam__Heat___CD__Rng___Max_Slots_Tons__DPS_DPH_DPS/T_HPS
LPL____10____7.25__3.67__365___730___2___7.0___2.72_1.38__0.39__1.98
PPC___10____9.50 __4.00__540 __1,080__3___7.0___2.50_1.05__0.36__2.38
SPPC__10____10.00__4.00__270___630___2___6.0___2.50_1.00_0.42___2.50
http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment

Comparing Snubs to LPL its -28% DPH, -8% less DPS, and a whopping 26% more heat per second. Even if you add an extra DHS to help account for the extra ton in the LPL. LPLs are still cooler despite firing faster. If you think snubs stack up to the LPL you need your head examined. This is why I compared it to the PPC, which note it is still waaaaay worse than. Until you are less than 90m apart, the PPC is a better weapon, and even when you are "brawling" it takes place about 80-150m apart. Closer than that and your face tanking prevents you friendlies from helping blocks the firing lane for you allies.

But lets just look at another fun stat for the Snubby. It has the 4th highest HPS in the game. What has worse heat per second you ask? Both ERPPCs and the Heavy PPC. All of those super hot heavy lasers put this weapon to shame. The HLL does 2.19 HPS. You can't have a brawling weapon one of the least heat efficient weapons in the game. Once you close the distance, you need cool DPS weapons. That means lowering the heat and the cooldown and or upping the damage.

For everyone noting its nice sync with the AC20, yeah that cooldown works for a weapon that does 20 damage. It has a dps of 5. The Snubby's is half that. To the guy using it with LBX10's it has almost double the cooldown of the LBX and terrible heat. Why would you do that?

Also, this is a brawling weapon with worse dps than a gauss rifle.

Edited by Cato Zilks, 03 November 2017 - 11:11 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

The Snub is also less than half the weight and a fifth of the size of an AC/20. You cannot discount that.

That being said, it's not like the AC/20 is a highly regarded weapon, either.

[stealthraccoon]

LPL has always been broken.

I’m okay with the SNPPC heat as-is, but I sure would appreciate some more velocity.

[davoodoo]

Catten Hart, on 03 November 2017 - 02:19 PM, said:

You clearly won't understand, or are willfully ignoring me, in a vain attempt to 'win' an argument. Let me inform you of how flawed your logic is.

On tabletop, a Large Laser does not lose damage until you start going past its long range. SN-PPCs and HGausses start losing damage outside of short range.

A Large Laser's damage profile was always 8short/8medium/8long.

A Snub Nose PPC's damage profile was always 10short/8medium/5long.

A Heavy Gauss Rifle's damage profile was always 25short/20medium/10long.

Now, the reason why PGI went with the tabletop stats of short range, as opposed to the max range of the latter two weapons, is because they already have a damage drop inherent in the stats. That is the drawback of these weapon systems on tabletop. If you gave them damage drop *Within the optimal range*, that would cease to be the actual optimal range. Tacking on a new Optimal Range measurement does not solve the problem.

And alternative way of looking at this, is that the Tabletop stats already had an 'Optimal range' measurement, that coincided with the short range of these weapons. That is why they receive a damage dropoff after short range.

Im thinking how to bend the rules to make them worthwhile in a game that already bended the rules.

Thats why i proposed max range as 1.5 times long range instead of regular x2 as lore and tt snub also have extremely high short range.

Hell i would even be ok if they had max range equal to optimal or if they used medium instead of long for optimal.

But suddenly using short range for this weapon completely ignoring heavy penatlies for medium(+2 to hit) and long range(+4 to hit) for other weapons on top of all other hit modifiers like +1 for mrm and heavy lasers and -1 for pulses.

Edited by davoodoo, 04 November 2017 - 09:55 AM.

[FupDup]

stealthraccoon, on 04 November 2017 - 09:15 AM, said:

LPL has always been broken.

Have you forgotten about the many years where the IS LPL has been a trash-tier joke? It was basically irrelevant as a weapon until The Great Quirkening (first pass) back in like November 2016 or so. And even today it has sunken down to being fairly meh after its damage nerf.

[Y E O N N E]

FupDup, on 04 November 2017 - 11:35 AM, said:

Have you forgotten about the many years where the IS LPL has been a trash-tier joke? It was basically irrelevant as a weapon until The Great Quirkening (first pass) back in like November 2016 or so. And even today it has sunken down to being fairly meh after its damage nerf.

oUr DaTa ShOwS tHe LaRgE pUlSe Is UsEd MoRe FrEqUeNtLy ThAn ThE sTaNdArD lArGe LaSeR aNd We WaNt To InCrEaSe ThE aMoUnT oF gIvE aNd Take...

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 04 November 2017 - 11:40 AM.

[Mr Snrub]

I think we should start with renaming them Snrub PPC. It would give the weapon class and sophistication.

[Khobai]

Quote

And even today it has sunken down to being fairly meh after its damage nerf.

its not meh at all

its still one of the better weapons

its just not god tier anymore

[davoodoo]

Mr Snrub, on 04 November 2017 - 01:05 PM, said:

I think we should start with renaming them Snrub PPC. It would give the weapon class and sophistication.

scrub ppc.

[Shifty McSwift]

davoodoo, on 04 November 2017 - 02:48 PM, said:

scrub ppc.

ShrubberPPC?



Also melee weapons shaped like Herring.

[theta123]

As a huge user of the snub nosed PPC i have the following words

DONT TOUCH IT

I really like it the way it is. I can agree with a slight heat reduction, but thats it

This is for my warhammer build! Lfe 300. 2 snub nose ppcs. 4 ml and 2 srm6 artemis