87 replies to this topic

[Commander A9]

That's changed.

After Luthien, IS won their first attack phase ever since Phase 4 began. Clan morale was shot, and everyone was furious, not because Luthien was a "loss," but because no one truly "won" and it was revealed the deck was stacked against Clans to begin with, which is not in the spirit of PGI's sense of "balance" when you have victory condition stacked against one side by default.

It's primarily PGI's terrible handling of events and competitions that led people to believe that no matter what they do, the hand and manipulation of PGI will engineer the outcome of an event, regardless of player effort.

I don't blame anyone for quitting the game at this point. I almost did it myself some days ago.

Edited by Commander A9, 25 November 2017 - 02:06 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Huh. Bar was all blue last night. IS so OP and Clans so nerfed but all the units tend to play there because... they like playing with inferior tech I guess.

[ccrider]

MischiefSC, on 26 November 2017 - 07:36 AM, said:

Huh. Bar was all blue last night. IS so OP and Clans so nerfed but all the units tend to play there because... they like playing with inferior tech I guess.

so true. The mass exodus to clan side proves units are trying to help the underdogs. Holy crap, how do people survive playing garbage mechs with 78 point alphas, 2 slot hear sinks and engines that weigh less and are as survivable as IS LFE? Those people are the real heroes; slogging it out day after day while IS players just get drunk and press the auto win button by dropping easy mode.

Edited by ccrider, 26 November 2017 - 09:16 AM.

[K O Z A K]

I gotta ask. What are all these units everyone is talking about? When I drop FW I hardly ever encounter a group of more than 4 ppl with the same tag. I mean sometimes you can see you're playing against an frr hub 12 with different tags but thats about it. Seems the vast majority of drops are composed of pug on pug matches at this point. It appears as if the number of FW teams that are still having an impact on the game mode is in the single digits (pure lore units dont count as they can usually barely stand up to pugs). Maybe its different in euro/oceanic? Most comp teams wont play FW.

[Charles Sennet]

ccrider, on 26 November 2017 - 09:15 AM, said:

so true. The mass exodus to clan side proves units are trying to help the underdogs. Holy crap, how do people survive playing garbage mechs with 78 point alphas, 2 slot hear sinks and engines that weigh less and are as survivable as IS LFE? Those people are the real heroes; slogging it out day after day while IS players just get drunk and press the auto win button by dropping easy mode.

Its called 300 extra tons plus durability quirks on top of that. The hit point advantage on the IS side is pretty obscene atm. Plus IS actually has long range advantage (see Moving Target's post). Add to that OP mechs (like Assassins) and the only 20 ton mech currently available (Locust) to free up extra tonnage you have yourself plenty of advantages to work with. So tired of hearing Clan OP when that was like 2 years ago now. So much has happened (Clan nerfs and IS buffs/new tech) since then. Even Russ recognized that IS has too much tonnage but didn't change it due to population imbalance. Don't even get me started about Scouting.

Edited by Charles Sennet, 27 November 2017 - 01:59 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Charles Sennet, on 26 November 2017 - 11:17 AM, said:

Its called 300 extra tons plus durability quirks on top of that. The hit point advantage on the IS side is pretty obscene atm. Plus IS actually has long range advantage (see Moving Target's post). Add to that OP mechs (like Assassins) and the only 20 ton mech currently available (Locust) to free up extra tonnage you have yourself plenty of advantages to work with. So tired of hearing Clan OP when that was like 2 years ago now. So much has happened (Clan nerfs and IS buffs/new tech) since then. Even Russ recognized that IS has too much tonnage but didn't change it due to population imbalance. Don't even get me started about Scouting. Balance there completely favors IS atm.

Can you please explain why Clan have won a bit over 99% of all phases in FW for almost a year at this point, plus every event?

Also given that my Clan mechs do on average 20 more damage every time I pull the trigger, how is the average 7 extra structure or armor on 4-6 locations foe the IS offsetting that?

Given that even though my Clan weapons are hotter CEndo/FF/XL and 33% smaller DHS ensure I can cool a 78 pt laser alpha faster than an IS 52 laser alpha giving me better cooling, more range, more damage/tic, more DPS, better sustained DPS all to go with my 50%bigger alpha.

Hence why from comp play to top ranked units to pretty much every top ranked player the consensus is that Clans are superior. Even with IS tonnage advantage.

Please help me understand.

Edited by MischiefSC, 26 November 2017 - 11:35 AM.

[Xavier]

We were IS until Saturday morning 1:00AM because we had already decided to go clan after an IS loyalist stint in laio. We had about a collective 70-75% win rate while play as IS. We switched to clan and low and behold we have about the same 70-75% win rate. We are encountering premises on both sides at about a 50% clip and the only units we lost to was a very well organized HHOD groups of which bognarr was a pilot upon our first drop as clans. Since then none of the FP groups I have run have lost a match. Our experience in mercstar is that both sides have their strengths and weaknesses if you utilize your strengths and relegate your weaknesses. Both sides have a relatively equal opportunity to win.

This game as far as FP is concerned is about as balanced as it has ever been and teamwork and coordination along with straight pilot abilities is more often the determining factor than tech advantages.

As a large unit of 160+ people we have found that people on both sides complain about tech imbalance. As a large group people complain when we destroy objectives early, they complain when we snipe, they complain when we brawl, they complain when we try to fight and have to kill out 48 mechs to win the game. Regardless of what or how we play people complain. Not just pugs, but other premises as well. Perception is reality and whatever people perceive right or wrong will be what they base their reactions on.

The easiest way to fix FP is to put a barrier to entry and not allow new pilots to join FP until they have at least 4 mechs of their own in which to play. As well as limiting new players their really needs to be a mechanic to encourage players to join FP units. Their is so much people can learn and do in large groups that they can’t do solo. 90% of FP games just like QP are lost in the mechlab where mechs are not optimized or team strategies are not synchronized.

As for mercstar we continue to invite any and all players to join and drop with us to see what real unit organization can do. We are not the best by far, but we are willing to help any and all who want to learn.

If you want to drop with us please drop by the comstar teamspeak and find our channels. Teamspeak ip=na1.mech-connect.net

[naterist]

Xavier, on 26 November 2017 - 12:14 PM, said:

We were IS until Saturday morning 1:00AM because we had already decided to go clan after an IS loyalist stint in laio. We had about a collective 70-75% win rate while play as IS. We switched to clan and low and behold we have about the same 70-75% win rate. We are encountering premises on both sides at about a 50% clip and the only units we lost to was a very well organized HHOD groups of which bognarr was a pilot upon our first drop as clans. Since then none of the FP groups I have run have lost a match. Our experience in mercstar is that both sides have their strengths and weaknesses if you utilize your strengths and relegate your weaknesses. Both sides have a relatively equal opportunity to win.

so youve only lost once as clan, but you still only win 70-75% of your matches? i find this hard to believe, especially since ive seen the strategy you guys were using last night, and find it hard to believe your losing even 25% of the time, its a good strat tbh. makes full use of all the advantages that mischief pointed out above.

methinks you are stretching the truth a tad to reiterate your point that things are "balanced"

Edited by naterist, 26 November 2017 - 12:51 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Xavier, on 26 November 2017 - 12:14 PM, said:

We were IS until Saturday morning 1:00AM because we had already decided to go clan after an IS loyalist stint in laio. We had about a collective 70-75% win rate while play as IS. We switched to clan and low and behold we have about the same 70-75% win rate. We are encountering premises on both sides at about a 50% clip and the only units we lost to was a very well organized HHOD groups of which bognarr was a pilot upon our first drop as clans. Since then none of the FP groups I have run have lost a match. Our experience in mercstar is that both sides have their strengths and weaknesses if you utilize your strengths and relegate your weaknesses. Both sides have a relatively equal opportunity to win.

This game as far as FP is concerned is about as balanced as it has ever been and teamwork and coordination along with straight pilot abilities is more often the determining factor than tech advantages.

As a large unit of 160+ people we have found that people on both sides complain about tech imbalance. As a large group people complain when we destroy objectives early, they complain when we snipe, they complain when we brawl, they complain when we try to fight and have to kill out 48 mechs to win the game. Regardless of what or how we play people complain. Not just pugs, but other premises as well. Perception is reality and whatever people perceive right or wrong will be what they base their reactions on.

The easiest way to fix FP is to put a barrier to entry and not allow new pilots to join FP until they have at least 4 mechs of their own in which to play. As well as limiting new players their really needs to be a mechanic to encourage players to join FP units. Their is so much people can learn and do in large groups that they can’t do solo. 90% of FP games just like QP are lost in the mechlab where mechs are not optimized or team strategies are not synchronized.

As for mercstar we continue to invite any and all players to join and drop with us to see what real unit organization can do. We are not the best by far, but we are willing to help any and all who want to learn.

If you want to drop with us please drop by the comstar teamspeak and find our channels. Teamspeak ip=na1.mech-connect.net

Teamwork crosses a lot of bridges. A good team can beat any team of lower skill pretty much with trial mechs - even when clans were OPAF when first releases they didn't give a perfect win rate.

Where tech imbalance comes in is two places - similar skill teams, suddenly it's relevant. Pug v pug, even more relevant - when everyone is mediocre (or less) the tech imbalance is a bigger deal. When you start looking at bad builds on both sides you start to have a bigger issue.

It's also significant for the units - it's unenjoyable to play with inferior tech, so people tend to stack Clans. It's always been that way save for a short period right before the KDK3 release and associated IS nerfs. At that time balance in population was great. I know KCom was regularly switching IS/Clan and we always had units to play against. After that everything drifted Clans, which accelerated with new tech and heavy lasers.

I'm very happy to see MS is back to filling a lot of drops. That's awesome - having people to drop with keeps more people playing and helps get more people trained up. That's great to see and I hope you guys switch and forth often.

[Xavier]

@naterist......the groups I have been running has only lost once.....we had 3 12 mans running last night and 2 4 man scout groups....just because my group has better success doesn’t mean that all our groups do....just look at loyalist unit leaderboards. And look at our wins and our losses they are from two days of FP dropping and you will see my numbers are correct.

[Honeybadgers]

Honestly, I don't know why everybody goes clans... I genuinely prefer IS mechs, and am considering switching. The timber and eon jag were the only reason I went clan in the first place (my favorite mechs in lore) but honestly, mechs like the thunderbolt, warhammer, marauder, partyback, 4SP, crab, the new loyalty griffin, the stealth commando, etc. are all so unique and fun. Clan mechs are just "good." there's no variety or unique playstyles, just mechs that all do "good".

I play this game for fun, not for winning. And IS mechs are more fun. It's a bummer the vast majority of players don't seem to agree. I like my unit too, which kind of keeps me from switching, otherwise I would do it in a heartbeat.

before anyone misinterprets what I'm saying - I agree that clan dominates IS in invasion and gets crushed in scouting, which is not balanced.

I think this game would be more balanced if more players just played IS mechs. I don't think IS has any inherent disadvantage due to quirks and lower heat, they just don't have the manpower. I just disagree that IS tech is inferior after considering quirks (with the exception of a vastly worse gauss rifle and a vastly worse LRM, though I prefer the fire mode of an IS LRM, it's far too heavy for all but a very few mechs like the 4J) because their weapons do their damage with less heat and often more precisely (see the continued popularity of the IS standard autocannons versus the ABSOLUTE 0% usage of clan standard AC's. Clan AC's need a buff in some way, because they're objectively worse in every way, even something simple like dropping the AC's to fire a single shell)

the IS is like WWII germany trying to hold back the tidal wave of russian conscripts. Their gear may be fine, but they don't have the bodies to use it.

Maybe incentivize the mercs to play whatever side is either losing or has a lower population. That would also kind of fit the lore.It would also be fun and let players who enjoy both flavors of mech (like me) to do so. I'd gladly be a merc if there was a tangible benefit.

The FW system doesn't even need a lot of tweaks. Just incentivize it heavily. Make there some cool rewards for maxing out rep with one faction, but give the mercs a substantial general buff to spacebucks earned. Let them work for money while loyalists earn titles, paintjobs, and maybe some mechs.

Edited by Honeybadgers, 26 November 2017 - 03:46 PM.

[Mahikan]

naterist, on 26 November 2017 - 12:47 PM, said:

so youve only lost once as clan, but you still only win 70-75% of your matches? i find this hard to believe, especially since ive seen the strategy you guys were using last night, and find it hard to believe your losing even 25% of the time, its a good strat tbh. makes full use of all the advantages that mischief pointed out above.

methinks you are stretching the truth a tad to reiterate your point that things are "balanced"

In our defense you guys did some really really weird stuff. Hiding on hellbore with full brawl warhammers(or at least laser vomit warhammers) instead of contesting at the gates, Then trickling in with your Cyclopes one at a time and hard reinforcing.

Then on Taiga dropping like 10 king crabs, yet none of them had uac's and just stood still and never torso twisted or moved (recommend 12 maulers with heavy gauss or slepniers) we never should of been able to walk in and do what we did on both maps. That was more of a calling and pilot error then were super duper better then eveyone.

We have lost to a comp team of HHOD who played much better then we've seen by running heavy gauss and 12 man brawl waves but pushing into us. Or by running the Dual gauss 6ermed warhammers as full waves, those mechs are absolutely brutal to fight en-mass while attacking

I mean some of our groups will have a 70-90% win loss, some of our groups with newer players will have a 60-80% win loss. Since we are a large unit and have upwards to 3 full 12 mans there can be a decent drop and raises in skill based on the group your playing. We have alot of good players, and alot of new players who want to get better and do better. But it all balances out, the frustrating part is units will give up the fight 9/10 times.

Recommendations: On defense drop your cyclops first and contest at the damn gate. Nothing the clans have should be able to out brawl 12 7srm 6 cyclops(specially on defense when we have to push into you) . Or at least you should be able to go roughly even.

Then drop your assassin's and do a light wave. by then you should of neutered the tonnage most clan drop decks will have and bring your wub warhammers for the light waves.

Don't bring lbx5 king crabs >.< don't, either do 4 uac 5's or dual uac 10's with back up weaponry. and your players still need to torso twist even with ballistics.

Edited by Mahikan, 26 November 2017 - 11:32 PM.

[Charles Sennet]

MischiefSC, on 26 November 2017 - 11:33 AM, said:

Can you please explain why Clan have won a bit over 99% of all phases in FW for almost a year at this point, plus every event?

Also given that my Clan mechs do on average 20 more damage every time I pull the trigger, how is the average 7 extra structure or armor on 4-6 locations foe the IS offsetting that?

Given that even though my Clan weapons are hotter CEndo/FF/XL and 33% smaller DHS ensure I can cool a 78 pt laser alpha faster than an IS 52 laser alpha giving me better cooling, more range, more damage/tic, more DPS, better sustained DPS all to go with my 50%bigger alpha.

Hence why from comp play to top ranked units to pretty much every top ranked player the consensus is that Clans are superior. Even with IS tonnage advantage.

Please help me understand.

Russ himself offered the explanation when he told everyone that the drop deck tonnage was not being reduced for IS after all because the population had swung back to Clans. We need to stop balancing FP for population and, instead, balance it assuming teams of equal skill. That is not what we have now.

As far as durability vs firepower... IS' durability is free with no cost (free extra tonnage, free extra quirks both compounded by skill tree) while the firepower carries a cost (heat mostly). Yes, Clans have bigger alpha but that can be deceiving. The 6 ERLL Battlemaster is a perfect example. On long range maps, Clans have no answer for it. It can't fire 3 ERLL's at once. The 1G allows IS to fire more often, at longer ranges, shorter duration (not to mention higher mounts) than anything Clans have. So it carries less heatsinks, big deal. That is not enough of a setback in actual matches. IS has a huge advantage in any objective-based game mode. The Annihilator allows IS teams to walk into an area in a way that no Clan mech can match. Then we look at IS Mediums. The Assassin is god-like right now. Talk about a mech that did not need extra durability quirks. There is no Clan mech of equal tonnage that stands a chance against this thing. For that matter the Assassin can take down a lot of mechs are higher tonnages than itself (and keep in mind Clans have less tons to begin with). IS owns long-range and short range. That leaves the middle, where Clans still have some advantage but even that is getting murky with very strong IS mechs with both offensive and defensive quirks.

The Bushwacker in Scouting? It single-handily gives IS a lot of wins there. Doesn't even matter that much that Clans can't bring Stormcrows. It can't hold up to the Bushwacker. I could go on and on. Scouting its painfully obvious the tonnages should be the same otherwise you might as well give IS the Scouting bonuses permanently. In Invasion, I'm not saying IS and Clan tonnage should be equal but 300 extra tons is too much. That's what it was before CW tech helped IS considerably (engines, ERML's etc.). Then CW tech happened and there was no adjustment?!? Yikes. The difference should be more like 120 tons and where the population is should have no bearing on actual game balance. Leave that to contract rewards and some new IS factions.

Edited by Charles Sennet, 27 November 2017 - 05:09 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Charles Sennet, on 27 November 2017 - 04:57 AM, said:

Russ himself offered the explanation when he told everyone that the drop deck tonnage was not being reduced for IS after all because the population had swung back to Clans. We need to stop balancing FP for population and, instead, balance it assuming teams of equal skill. That is not what we have now.

As far as durability vs firepower... IS' durability is free with no cost (free extra tonnage, free extra quirks both compounded by skill tree) while the firepower carries a cost (heat mostly). Yes, Clans have bigger alpha but that can be deceiving. The 6 ERLL Battlemaster is a perfect example. On long range maps, Clans have no answer for it. It can't fire 3 ERLL's at once. The 1G allows IS to fire more often, at longer ranges, shorter duration (not to mention higher mounts) than anything Clans have. So it carries less heatsinks, big deal. That is not enough of a setback in actual matches. IS has a huge advantage in any objective-based game mode. The Annihilator allows IS teams to walk into an area in a way that no Clan mech can match. Then we look at IS Mediums. The Assassin is god-like right now. Talk about a mech that did not need extra durability quirks. There is no Clan mech of equal tonnage that stands a chance against this thing. For that matter the Assassin can take down a lot of mechs are higher tonnages than itself (and keep in mind Clans have less tons to begin with). IS owns long-range and short range. That leaves the middle, where Clans still have some advantage but even that is getting murky with very strong IS mechs with both offensive and defensive quirks.

The Bushwacker in Scouting? It single-handily gives IS a lot of wins there. Doesn't even matter that much that Clans can't bring Stormcrows. It can't hold up to the Bushwacker. I could go on and on. Scouting its painfully obvious the tonnages should be the same otherwise you might as well give IS the Scouting bonuses permanently. In Invasion, I'm not saying IS and Clan tonnage should be equal but 300 extra tons is too much. That's what it was before CW tech helped IS considerably (engines, ERML's etc.). Then CW tech happened and there was no adjustment?!? Yikes. The difference should be more like 120 tons and where the population is should have no bearing on actual game balance. Leave that to contract rewards and some new IS factions.

So Clan lasers do 11 damage each, IS do 9 each. They are also 1 ton lighter. If a Clan gets 6 ERLLS (SNV for example) he's only spent 24 tons and 6 slots instead of 30 tons and 12 slots. He can not only get 6 extra DHS, because of CXL, CEndo and CFF he can literally take enough extra DHS to run 3x3 and eat the ghost heat. That's why the only ERLL assault you see in competitive play, where they could take BLR or SNV, is the SNV. Even with the lower arms - because it's so drastically superior for firepower.

What's awesome though is you don't actually need to. HLL and CERMLs are punching at 600m stronger than the 6 ERLL can by a huge margin, more heat effective and way better damage/tic. The answer to the 85 ton BLR is either poptart Summoners or 2 HLL, X CERML (depending on mech) HBR/EBJ/whatever floats your boat. The 100m range difference you need to cover is literally 3 seconds of travel time for any Clan mech (being significantly faster than IS mechs) meaning you just move up to 500-600m cover. You *could* do a 3x CERLL HBR and since they can't do 6xERLLs at once still win trades, because you can fire 3xCERLL for 33 damage and fade and the 6xERLL BLR can do 3x3 but will do less than 33 damage to you before your 1.17 (with burn duration quirks) burn finishes.

The point is that you don't have to. Take Linebackers and just go kill all of them. Most of the decent teams can do that on Polar consistently.

Annihilator is, at best, mediocre. My laservomit MAD IIC can kill one in two alphas to the big prominent CT head. Two people can easily focus one down in a hurry, and do. It's slow, vulnerable and carries at best mediocre firepower for its tonnage. If it comes face to face with a Dire Wolf the Dire will (if it doesn't have a **** build) kill the Anni (oh noes, dat extra health/structure!) before it's lost all of its armor on a single location. That's because it can do more damage in 2 alphas than the total buffed health of the Annis CT, which due to hitboxes on the head and the tip of its shark nose body, it can not protect.

The Assassin is a very strong medium right now. Hitboxes are either wonky or just insanely small. No question - however it's got a weak payload. It absolutely does *not* own brawling - ffs, use streaks if your aim is bad enough you just can't kill one. A 50 ton Huntsman can take an incredible 6 xSSRM6 - many of us do just to farm damage on wave 3.

If you can't beat a Bushie in a Stormcrow I don't know what to tell you. If you have Bushies, friend me and we'll 1 v 1 and I'll beat you repeatedly in a Huntsman, a Nova and an HBK IIC. They're tanky but any decently well designed Clan mech will just demolish it based on higher alpha.

Look at the map and the leaderboards for units. All the best performing units are dominating in Clans and have been. Even with the tonnage difference. 2 HLL and 6xCERML is 78 damage and because of flat out superior Clan tech does more damage/tic, more alpha, more DPS, better cooling, more Alpha than anything the IS fields from 600m or less.

I'm not trying to measure epeens or insult you here but literally everyone who's performing at the highest levels of this game has said and continues to say Clans are superior. Every single actual metric for it, from who actually wins in FW (go look at who's winning phases, go look at units win/loss) to what mechs get picked for competitive play to what the best performing mechs in leaderboard events are to the actual math as put up countless times by people like Tarogato, Yevonne Greene, Mcgral and others has made it clear.

If you're not winning in Clans against IS it's literally because you're either not doing a good job making your mechs and deck or you're playing/positioning poorly. Clans have a significant (but not insurmountable) tech advantage. Even when Clans were OPAF at release they were never a guaranteed win - tech advantage isn't a magic bullet. Good teams in trial mechs can beat bad teams in meta. That's irrelevant to balance.

The reality is that balance is off and in favor of Clans, not by a little bit either. If you're not seeing that it's a good indication that you're either building mechs wrong or playing them wrong.

[Charles Sennet]

MischiefSC, on 27 November 2017 - 02:48 PM, said:

So Clan lasers do 11 damage each, IS do 9 each. They are also 1 ton lighter. If a Clan gets 6 ERLLS (SNV for example) he's only spent 24 tons and 6 slots instead of 30 tons and 12 slots. He can not only get 6 extra DHS, because of CXL, CEndo and CFF he can literally take enough extra DHS to run 3x3 and eat the ghost heat. That's why the only ERLL assault you see in competitive play, where they could take BLR or SNV, is the SNV. Even with the lower arms - because it's so drastically superior for firepower. What's awesome though is you don't actually need to. HLL and CERMLs are punching at 600m stronger than the 6 ERLL can by a huge margin, more heat effective and way better damage/tic. The answer to the 85 ton BLR is either poptart Summoners or 2 HLL, X CERML (depending on mech) HBR/EBJ/whatever floats your boat. The 100m range difference you need to cover is literally 3 seconds of travel time for any Clan mech (being significantly faster than IS mechs) meaning you just move up to 500-600m cover. You *could* do a 3x CERLL HBR and since they can't do 6xERLLs at once still win trades, because you can fire 3xCERLL for 33 damage and fade and the 6xERLL BLR can do 3x3 but will do less than 33 damage to you before your 1.17 (with burn duration quirks) burn finishes. The point is that you don't have to. Take Linebackers and just go kill all of them. Most of the decent teams can do that on Polar consistently. Annihilator is, at best, mediocre. My laservomit MAD IIC can kill one in two alphas to the big prominent CT head. Two people can easily focus one down in a hurry, and do. It's slow, vulnerable and carries at best mediocre firepower for its tonnage. If it comes face to face with a Dire Wolf the Dire will (if it doesn't have a **** build) kill the Anni (oh noes, dat extra health/structure!) before it's lost all of its armor on a single location. That's because it can do more damage in 2 alphas than the total buffed health of the Annis CT, which due to hitboxes on the head and the tip of its shark nose body, it can not protect. The Assassin is a very strong medium right now. Hitboxes are either wonky or just insanely small. No question - however it's got a weak payload. It absolutely does *not* own brawling - ffs, use streaks if your aim is bad enough you just can't kill one. A 50 ton Huntsman can take an incredible 6 xSSRM6 - many of us do just to farm damage on wave 3. If you can't beat a Bushie in a Stormcrow I don't know what to tell you. If you have Bushies, friend me and we'll 1 v 1 and I'll beat you repeatedly in a Huntsman, a Nova and an HBK IIC. They're tanky but any decently well designed Clan mech will just demolish it based on higher alpha. Look at the map and the leaderboards for units. All the best performing units are dominating in Clans and have been. Even with the tonnage difference. 2 HLL and 6xCERML is 78 damage and because of flat out superior Clan tech does more damage/tic, more alpha, more DPS, better cooling, more Alpha than anything the IS fields from 600m or less. I'm not trying to measure epeens or insult you here but literally everyone who's performing at the highest levels of this game has said and continues to say Clans are superior. Every single actual metric for it, from who actually wins in FW (go look at who's winning phases, go look at units win/loss) to what mechs get picked for competitive play to what the best performing mechs in leaderboard events are to the actual math as put up countless times by people like Tarogato, Yevonne Greene, Mcgral and others has made it clear. If you're not winning in Clans against IS it's literally because you're either not doing a good job making your mechs and deck or you're playing/positioning poorly. Clans have a significant (but not insurmountable) tech advantage. Even when Clans were OPAF at release they were never a guaranteed win - tech advantage isn't a magic bullet. Good teams in trial mechs can beat bad teams in meta. That's irrelevant to balance. The reality is that balance is off and in favor of Clans, not by a little bit either. If you're not seeing that it's a good indication that you're either building mechs wrong or playing them wrong.

Getting into the weeds a bit. As much as I'd love to debate the finer points of marginally better firepower vs massive durability advantages. When tonnages are equal (such as in comp play) I can see why Clan mechs are taken more than IS overall. All I'm saying is that a 300 ton advantage is not needed in FP for comparable teams to be competitive. It was 300 before CW tech and it remains 300 tons after even though objectively IS was helped measurably. Why has the disparity not adjusted? Did nothing happen to affect balance? I think not.

[MischiefSC]

Charles Sennet, on 27 November 2017 - 06:21 PM, said:

Getting into the weeds a bit. As much as I'd love to debate the finer points of marginally better firepower vs massive durability advantages. When tonnages are equal (such as in comp play) I can see why Clan mechs are taken more than IS overall. All I'm saying is that a 300 ton advantage is not needed in FP for comparable teams to be competitive. It was 300 before CW tech and it remains 300 tons after even though objectively IS was helped measurably. Why has the disparity not adjusted? Did nothing happen to affect balance? I think not.

There is no massive durability advantage.

Most mechs have no structure/armor quirks. Almost all those who do are 7 pts in each of 3-5 locations. The most egregious examples are 20 pts in one location and 10 pts in others, which are all mechs that are otherwise absolutely terrible. My Linebackers have more structure quirks than most IS mechs. So does the Supernova, or the Nova for that matter.

The tonnage difference still isn't enough, because it's no substitute for tech balance. Not even close. It's why almost everyone is back in Clans, again.

This isn't a new thing. It's not just this week. It's been about a year. Population was far more balanced back about 2 months after the KDK release. At which point Clans started winning constantly.

Again, look at the war history. Look at what actually happens in FW. Against teams of comparable skill being in Clans is a real advantage. The tonnage advantage doesn't change that Clan tech is significantly superior. Quite bluntly if the tonnage advantage actually translated into an actual in game advantage most teams would be in IS and the IS would be winning most matches. Teams are gravitating to Clans because playing with a disadvantage really isn't that fun.

In comparable teams the 300 tons total, over 48 mechs, still leaves Clans with an advantage. Why? Because at 20 more damage per alpha per mech that 300 tons over 4 waves is offset by 240 damage every every single alpha trade. ERLL BLRs are useful defending Boreal (not attacking) and skirmish/assault on Polar. That's it. Clans have so many other advantages that you do not need to run ERLL boats on those maps and situations to win; you can do just fine or better with rush decks or 500-600m trade decks and use your better speed to control range.

CW tech helped Clans way more than IS. Heavy lasers, LMGs and HMGs were a massive boon to Clans who got better versions of LMGs than the IS got and has plenty of mechs that needed them and can use them to be effective. Crit Lynx and Shadowcat as common examples. HLLs boosted your average Clan laservomit build by 33% over its already stronger position.

Again. Clans are better, 300 tons doesn't account for much. It helps, but it doesn't really shift the needle. Hence why Clans always win every event and cycle and why almost every unit stays in them, even with ghost drops.

Edited by MischiefSC, 27 November 2017 - 08:56 PM.

[Lovas]

Charles Sennet, on 27 November 2017 - 06:21 PM, said:

... All I'm saying is that a 300 ton advantage is not needed in FP for comparable teams to be competitive....

-vs- skittles and not high performing teams you are right. Who cares what the tonnage is when we kill the entire team with one or two waves of ours?

When IS goes up against someone who knows what they are doing and can pilot really well, they either win by the skin of their teeth (having to use ALL of the tonnage), or get demolished.

[McGoat]

The BLR-1G and any variant of a HLL HBR are pretty much equal in lethality in good hands, with the exception of IS XL vulnerability. There is a 20 ton difference between those two mechs, yet you believe there is no need for tonnage differences? There is no IS heavy that answers to the absolute pounding an HBR can deliver. Gausshammer? Sure, it packs a wallop to one component. Also has an IS XL and should you go LFE you lose ammo etc. ERL Hoppers etc? Please. MRM QKD, perhaps for DPS but in the end no, not really.
If it's a long range map take 4ERL/5ERL HBR/EBJ's - ta-da.

Yes - the tonnage discrepancy can allow total domination of a bad "team". You put even a mediocre team in clan mechs and it becomes that much closer. It is what it is - use your advantages (each side) to your ability and adapt as needed. You didn't see us, or EVIL, moaning about KCom rushes in OP brawl mechs - because we adjusted to the drop and shift fire as needed. Conversley you didn't see KCom coming on here posting about IS being vastly over tonned.

Don't look to make your play style easier - adapt to the environment and work with your team. If you're not here for any sort of "challenge" why play?

[KingCobra]

Sorry OP but I have to laugh at this topic of coarse teams stack this game to profit from events tournaments ETC. It has been this way since DAY1 of MWO.

Edited by KingCobra, 28 November 2017 - 07:55 AM.

[naterist]

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1801d6ba931c22a

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...53a83327e6baccf

look at these 2 mechs. same weapons loadout, different numbers in the dps and cooling categories. tell me again how IS op?


btw, you can easily move the small pulses to medium pulses on the clanmech. much higher damage than the innersphere mech.

oh, and lets look at the 100 tonners with the quad lbx10 builds.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9b9aa33055def75
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...52446b76c743162

wow, look hopw much ammo is on each mech. same numbers on the top left, different ammo count. amazing isnt it?

clans are OP as ****, fact of life.