31 replies to this topic

[Shifty McSwift]

Wolfways, on 04 November 2017 - 07:33 AM, said:

So it's the same as all fighting (using cover, etc.), just at a shorter range?
I thought brawling was running around in the open trying to get right up into the enemy's face because that is the majority of pretty much every match

Well if you breach into your optimal range and most of your opponents are now firing unoptimised bursts at close range with long range weapons, you might as well hang around and clean them up, because you are very likely to win that fight, and if breaching into that range creates a no cover situation, then there's no cover in the brawl but other mechs, damaged mechs taking cover behind fresh mechs who aren't being targeted, or by lining up enemies so only a certain amount can fire at you without hitting eachother.

One of the strongest methods of countering focus fire is target saturation and armor sharing, that applies at any range.

Edited by Shifty McSwift, 04 November 2017 - 07:39 AM.

[Wolfways]

Shifty McSwift, on 04 November 2017 - 07:38 AM, said:

Well if you breach into your optimal range and most of your opponents are now firing unoptimised bursts at close range with long range weapons, you might as well hang around and clean them up, because you are very likely to win that fight, and if breaching into that range creates a no cover situation, then there's no cover in the brawl but other mechs, damaged mechs taking cover behind fresh mechs who aren't being targeted, or by lining up enemies so only a certain amount can fire at you without hitting eachother.

One of the strongest methods of countering focus fire is target saturation and armor sharing, that applies at any range.

Yeah that sounds like just about every match...except maybe on Alpine. Yet players still complain there's no brawling...

[Bogus]

I'm not against this. I like 8v8 more, since it not only reduces ganking but also addresses the steadily lengthening MM queue.

[Trissila]

Wolfways, on 04 November 2017 - 07:33 AM, said:

So it's the same as all fighting (using cover, etc.), just at a shorter range?
I thought brawling was running around in the open trying to get right up into the enemy's face because that is the majority of pretty much every match

Nah, that's silliness.

Brawling is spotting an enemy Warhawk running a lot of ERLLs, flanking the long way around Frozen City to get to him with your 2xRAC-5 Bushwacker, then shredding him from under 400 meters by ducking in and out of the buildings as he tries to keep up and ultimately fails.

It's getting close to the enemy line in a 6xASRM-6 Huntsman and utilizing your mobility and jumpjets to get those really-short-range peeks with your 72-point Alpha and then fading back behind a building/ridge, just to do it again from an unexpected angle. Until you get that one guy singled out and then you just rush up to him and finish him off before disappearing back into the clutter.

[Wolfways]

Trissila, on 04 November 2017 - 02:04 PM, said:

Nah, that's silliness.

Brawling is spotting an enemy Warhawk running a lot of ERLLs, flanking the long way around Frozen City to get to him with your 2xRAC-5 Bushwacker, then shredding him from under 400 meters by ducking in and out of the buildings as he tries to keep up and ultimately fails.

It's getting close to the enemy line in a 6xASRM-6 Huntsman and utilizing your mobility and jumpjets to get those really-short-range peeks with your 72-point Alpha and then fading back behind a building/ridge, just to do it again from an unexpected angle. Until you get that one guy singled out and then you just rush up to him and finish him off before disappearing back into the clutter.

So...I guess brawling is alive and well then, because just about all matches are short range matches. At least mine are.

[mogs01gt]

Daggett, on 04 November 2017 - 03:07 AM, said:

Then you simply may have a different definition of brawling than i do. For me there is no pure 'brawling' match, instead each match has both a trading and a brawling phase. Sometimes the trading phase overweights and you indeed get the situation you described in the brawling phase, and sometimes a match translates into a brawl very quickly.
But both cases are still a brawl, the only difference is the scale. If you define proper brawling as a match where players skip trading and positioning and 24 fresh mechs simply smash faces right from the start, then you are probably in the wrong game because trading weapons like PPC / LL and builds will stay and also the players who want to use them.
But there is a trick!
Get on comms and motivate your team to push (at the right moment of cause). Just watch some of Baradul's videos. Brawling is his favorite style and he more often than not manages to get his team into the zone with only a few words so he can do what he likes.
If he is not brawling regularly in your eyes then your definition may be way off and you will probably never get the type of brawling you expect.

That is because your definition of brawling is wrong. Brawling mechs need to be within 200-300m, and 300m is stretching it with SRMs. This is why there are mid range mechs and long range mechs. If you arent going to recognize the differences in effective ranges for weapons, then you shouldnt be having a conversation regarding brawling.

[davoodoo]

All ghost heat categories with exception of clan mediums already are capped at 30dmg.

Any further reduction will going to lights lvl of damage and further cripple already crippled assaults.

mogs01gt, on 06 November 2017 - 08:00 AM, said:

That is because your definition of brawling is wrong. Brawling mechs need to be within 200-300m, and 300m is stretching it with SRMs. This is why there are mid range mechs and long range mechs. If you arent going to recognize the differences in effective ranges for weapons, then you shouldnt be having a conversation regarding brawling.

lrm brawling...
300m is long range for most brawling weapons in tt so idk where did you get that...

brawling is simply firefights out in the open.

Edited by davoodoo, 06 November 2017 - 09:29 AM.

[mogs01gt]

davoodoo, on 06 November 2017 - 09:26 AM, said:

brawling is simply firefights out in the open.

Not its not. Its fighting within 200m. I mentioned 300m for pulse weapons. I can fight out in the open at 1000m, that isnt brawling.

Edited by mogs01gt, 06 November 2017 - 09:51 AM.

[Radbane]

Cut all damage, heat and cooldown time in half, double the ammo for ammo based weapons. Same DPS, half the alpha and less peek-a-boo. *shrugs* But of course, that would be a giant step from TT rules, but maybe that is what the game needs.

[Daggett]

mogs01gt, on 06 November 2017 - 08:00 AM, said:

That is because your definition of brawling is wrong. Brawling mechs need to be within 200-300m, and 300m is stretching it with SRMs. This is why there are mid range mechs and long range mechs. If you arent going to recognize the differences in effective ranges for weapons, then you shouldnt be having a conversation regarding brawling.

Maybe i have phrased it wrong, i never meant that fighting with weapons like PPCs and Large Lasers at distances >300m should be called brawling. That's what i tried to define at the 'trading phase'. Of cause brawling happens in shorter distances and brawling mechs would equip different weapons such as pulse-lasers and SRMs.

So in this regard we seem to have the same opinion: Brawling happens within short distances.

But we seem to differ how much brawling a match should have:

mogs01gt, on 06 November 2017 - 08:00 AM, said:

Its been around 3 years since a match was actually a brawling match and not just a few mechs at the ending finally getting within 200m.

You seem to want a match where the majority of fighting happens within 300m, a true 'brawling match'. And what i tried to say was that this wish is quite utopian with the QP-gamemodes we currently have. As long as players can bring mid- and long-range weapons most matches will have a significant non-brawling phase. So usually it takes some time until one team decides to push and bring the match to the brawling phase.

And PGI will probably always design the maps in a way that non-brawling weapons are viable. As i said some maps favor brawling like Viridian Bog and others like Polar Highlands are more advantageous for weapons with longer ranges.

But the typical flow of a QP match is always the same: Some amount of trading followed by brawling, the maps only shift how long each phase takes in average.

So unless PGI incorporates a pure brawling gamemode where mid- and long-range weapons are forbidden, we will have to live with the fact that matches with very short trading-phases and therefore extensive brawling action will happen quite rarely.

No map PGI designs will change that, otherwise you will see oceans of salt from players who brought weapons they can't really use effectively. I guarantee that the new urban map coming next year will still have some positions where non-brawlers can use their toys.
You will have the same two phases as in every other map.

And now the point where we differ:
I don't need that pure brawling match. For me it's totally fine to let the pokers do their attrition stuff and wait for my opportunity to brawl because i know the brawl WILL come at some point and that i can even influence this by communicating. That's what i meant why we have a different definition of a proper brawl.

Edited by Daggett, 06 November 2017 - 03:41 PM.

[JadePanther]

I see your style.. But you cannot defeat my style phsssht brawawawawaw

[Scout Derek]

Brawling is still very much alive. Just saying.