31 replies to this topic

[Electron Junkie]

Chalk this up to working a double and partaking in about ten to many energy drinks...
(yeah energy drinks that what those were X_X;)

But I think the simplest way to solve high alphas, increase TTK and bring back the "THE BRAWLING" is to simply impose a max damage cap to a single component from a single enemy per period of time.

Something like 30dmg per component within a one second period from one enemy. More than 30dmg can be dealt to that same component from multiple enemies but the ridiculous 80+ alphas from one person would have to be split up into two smaller alphas (lol betas) that would require more face time and a larger chance of both those alphas being dumped into different components. In the case of laser vomit / RACs damage could still be dragged across multiple components but still cap the damage per component.

[Armored Yokai]

Energy drinks aren't good for your Liver and Onions.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Guess it sort of makes sense with the ablative armor taking time to fall off.

I kinda don't like that it sort of makes it a better option to just spray damage indiscriminately at the enemy than to be accurate though. Seems backwards that the guy with bad aim outscores the guy who can pinpoint a component out at 1km. I'd probably just go back to dual ERPPC poptarting.

[Khobai]

why not just add shields to the game

thats basically what this is lol


but I do think a simpler idea would just be to give us triple armor/structure if the game is going to stay 12v12 (or alternatively go back to 8v8)

because double armor/structure was balanced for 8v8, not 12v12. when the game went to 12v12, mechs started dying too fast from the added concentration of firepower.

Edited by Khobai, 03 November 2017 - 07:43 AM.

[mogs01gt]

Electron Junkie, on 03 November 2017 - 07:11 AM, said:

Chalk this up to working a double and partaking in about ten to many energy drinks...
(yeah energy drinks that what those were X_X;)

But I think the simplest way to solve high alphas, increase TTK and bring back the "THE BRAWLING" is to simply impose a max damage cap to a single component from a single enemy per period of time.

Something like 30dmg per component within a one second period from one enemy. More than 30dmg can be dealt to that same component from multiple enemies but the ridiculous 80+ alphas from one person would have to be split up into two smaller alphas (lol betas) that would require more face time and a larger chance of both those alphas being dumped into different components. In the case of laser vomit / RACs damage could still be dragged across multiple components but still cap the damage per component.

Most our issues with the lack of brawling stems from map design. We have mechs that are way over sized compared to the maps, no real urban maps and UAVs makes being "sneaky" difficult.

Once brawlers get into range, they wreck much laser builds. The issue is once they get into range, they're at 80% armor.

[Wolfways]

Electron Junkie, on 03 November 2017 - 07:11 AM, said:

But I think the simplest way to solve high alphas, increase TTK and bring back the "THE BRAWLING" is to simply impose a max damage cap to a single component from a single enemy per period of time.

Oh look, another general sweeping statement.
You could instead stop playing in premades, or drop to T2 or lower in QP. No high alphas and nothing but brawling there.

[Daggett]

Wait... Lack of brawling? In what context?

For solo QP i can't remember a single match which did not translate into a proper brawl. Even on polar and alpine brawling happens sooner or later.

In fact the balance between long range trading and brawling is quite good. Whatever mech you run, there is a phase where you can shine. Sure, open maps favor long range builds more while in others the brawlers have more "play-time". But in average, i don't feel useless in any build on any map.

The trick for brawlers is to advance in cover so they are still fresh enough when the brawling starts. If for example SRM-boats would resist the urge to trade with their two backup-lasers against large lasers, gauss and ppcs, they could easily stay at full health most of the time. Instead use those lasers to shoot down UAVs so you won't become easy LRM prey.

That said, beside UAVs the only really dangerous thing for a brawler are enemy light mechs lighting them up for LRM fire. Everything else can be evaded long enough to enjoy the brawling phase.

This may be different in group play or FP, but then buffing brawling is not the solution because it would probably become overpowered in QP.

Edited by Daggett, 03 November 2017 - 09:07 AM.

[mogs01gt]

Daggett, on 03 November 2017 - 08:07 AM, said:

Wait... Lack of brawling? In what context?

For solo QP i can't remember a single match which did not translate into a proper brawl. Even on polar and alpine brawling happens sooner or later.

In fact the balance between long range trading and brawling is quite good. Whatever mech you run, there is a phase where you can shine. Sure, open maps favor long range builds more while in others the brawlers have more "play-time". But in average, i don't feel useless in any build on any map.

The trick for brawlers is to advance in cover so they are still fresh enough when the brawling starts. If for example SRM-boats would resist the urge to trade with their two backup-lasers against large lasers, gauss and ppcs, they could easily stay at full health most of the time. Instead use those lasers to shoot down UAVs so you won't become easy LRM prey.

That said, beside UAVs the only really dangerous thing for a brawler are enemy light mechs lighting them up for LRM fire. Everything else can be evaded long enough to enjoy the brawling phase.

This may be different in group play or FP, but then buffing brawling is not the solution because it would probably become overpowered in QP.

Its been around 3 years since a match was actually a brawling match and not just a few mechs at the ending finally getting within 200m.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 03 November 2017 - 07:41 AM, said:

why not just add shields to the game

thats basically what this is lol

Ragnarok confirmed.

[Trissila]

Force everyone to carry one ER Small Laser, and nothing else.

BAM TTK SOLVED.

[Khobai]

Trissila, on 03 November 2017 - 08:41 PM, said:

Force everyone to carry one ER Small Laser, and nothing else.

BAM TTK SOLVED.

hello kitty laser tag

[Requiemking]

Dakota1000, on 03 November 2017 - 07:30 AM, said:

Guess it sort of makes sense with the ablative armor taking time to fall off.

I kinda don't like that it sort of makes it a better option to just spray damage indiscriminately at the enemy than to be accurate though. Seems backwards that the guy with bad aim outscores the guy who can pinpoint a component out at 1km. I'd probably just go back to dual ERPPC poptarting.

You do realise this is exactly the case with the current implementation of the score system right? Mindlessly spraying damage about does and pretty much has always payed far more than accurate kills. Thats a pretty large part of why Lights are so unpopular.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Requiemking, on 03 November 2017 - 10:08 PM, said:

You do realise this is exactly the case with the current implementation of the score system right? Mindlessly spraying damage about does and pretty much has always payed far more than accurate kills. Thats a pretty large part of why Lights are so unpopular.

Not quite.

Accurate fire has its perks. If you go and focus fire down side torsos on the enemy with precision you reduce their firepower, you get all the damage points for the destroyed arm and the side torso, and that nearly locks in you getting a KMDD on that enemy on its own. If you go and take out the other side torso after that then you roll in the money and match score by just pin point focusing two components, much like ripping out legs in scouting.

The guy who sprayed damage all over the enemy may put out the same damage but the enemy didn't die, so his team is more likely to lose, he is less likely to get a kill, assist, or KMDD, and he really likely didn't put out the same damage due to just being killed by who he sprayed down without finishing off.

My lights are some of my best money makers, Wolfhound with 6 MPL just rips into enemies easily with high burst DPS and great precision, allowing you to focus down side torsos (especially those nice Clan heavy mech side torsos) in 3 shots, run off and cool, and go rip the other side off the guy moments later for an easy 288 damage solo kill. Solo kills tend to pay out much more money than just spamming damage anyway.

[Daggett]

mogs01gt, on 03 November 2017 - 07:05 PM, said:

Its been around 3 years since a match was actually a brawling match and not just a few mechs at the ending finally getting within 200m.

Then you simply may have a different definition of brawling than i do. For me there is no pure 'brawling' match, instead each match has both a trading and a brawling phase. Sometimes the trading phase overweights and you indeed get the situation you described in the brawling phase, and sometimes a match translates into a brawl very quickly.

But both cases are still a brawl, the only difference is the scale. If you define proper brawling as a match where players skip trading and positioning and 24 fresh mechs simply smash faces right from the start, then you are probably in the wrong game because trading weapons like PPC / LL and builds will stay and also the players who want to use them.

But there is a trick!
Get on comms and motivate your team to push (at the right moment of cause). Just watch some of Baradul's videos. Brawling is his favorite style and he more often than not manages to get his team into the zone with only a few words so he can do what he likes.

If he is not brawling regularly in your eyes then your definition may be way off and you will probably never get the type of brawling you expect.

Edited by Daggett, 04 November 2017 - 03:22 AM.

[Mystere]

If more maps were built such that we end up with 50% of maps being highly claustrophobic urban ones, we'd increase brawling and at the very least least double the number of maps. Make that 80% and we'd have at least 5 times more maps.

Sometimes a better solution is to think outside the box. But then again I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

Edited by Mystere, 04 November 2017 - 05:00 AM.

[Wolfways]

Brawling = What happens when tactics fail.

[Shifty McSwift]

Wolfways, on 04 November 2017 - 06:41 AM, said:

Brawling = What happens when tactics fail.

Hue hue, and sniping = what happens when you want to waste a lot of time and farm high damage scores at the cost of your teams efforts.

And hill peeping = what happens when you don't have tactics and decide to become a turret that rocks back and forth for 10 minutes.

And scouting/flanking = what happens when you can't fight upfront targets and the only way you can deal damage is shooting the backs of mechs.

ORRRR maybe there is skill and tactics involved within all these relatively simple mechanics, I mean its not rocket science it is a point and click shooter game, skill and difficulty are relative to the medium.

[Wolfways]

Shifty McSwift, on 04 November 2017 - 06:53 AM, said:

Hue hue, and sniping = what happens when you want to waste a lot of time and farm high damage scores at the cost of your teams efforts.

And hill peeping = what happens when you don't have tactics and decide to become a turret that rocks back and forth for 10 minutes.

And scouting/flanking = what happens when you can't fight upfront targets and the only way you can deal damage is shooting the backs of mechs.

ORRRR maybe there is skill and tactics involved within all these relatively simple mechanics, I mean its not rocket science it is a point and click shooter game, skill and difficulty are relative to the medium.

Except that they involve trying to avoid being shot by the enemy, whilst brawling lets the enemy shoot you.

[Shifty McSwift]

Wolfways, on 04 November 2017 - 06:59 AM, said:

Except that they involve trying to avoid being shot by the enemy, whilst brawling lets the enemy shoot you.

All of those methods potentially involve someone shooting back at you. Brawling also implies you are forcing your opponent to shoot through your armor at your choice, and doesn't at all mean totally exposing yourself until death, so the same ideal applies, your opponents get the chance to shoot and you work to minimise their output while maximising your own.

It is just the most direct method of trading damage, a group of brawlers will use tactics like peeling off at low health and "armor sharing", so yeah there are tactics and communicative strategies at work in brawling.

What you say sounds more like running out in the open to stand still and die, which isn't brawling.

[Wolfways]

Shifty McSwift, on 04 November 2017 - 07:20 AM, said:

All of those methods potentially involve someone shooting back at you. Brawling also implies you are forcing your opponent to shoot through your armor at your choice, and doesn't at all mean totally exposing yourself until death, so the same ideal applies, your opponents get the chance to shoot and you work to minimise their output while maximising your own.

It is just the most direct method of trading damage, a group of brawlers will use tactics like peeling off at low health and "armor sharing", so yeah there are tactics and communicative strategies at work in brawling.

What you say sounds more like running out in the open to stand still and die, which isn't brawling.

So it's the same as all fighting (using cover, etc.), just at a shorter range?
I thought brawling was running around in the open trying to get right up into the enemy's face because that is the majority of pretty much every match