221 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

JackalBeast, on 05 November 2017 - 04:52 PM, said:

Really? you can't out twist a HLL stare machine? that is sad.

What you don't understand is that it's not about twisting.

It's that your best possible IS laservomit options are 52 pt alphas over 1.1 second. It's doing 4.98 damage per 10th of a second (a 'tic') for 0.9 seconds and 2.8 damage/tic over the next 2 tics.

The HLL build burns are 78 over 1.55 seconds. However it's doing 5.76 damage/tic for 1.25 seconds and another 1.92 for the next 3 tics.

So in the 1.1 second that the IS laservomit does 52 pts the Clan mech did 63.36. Then it dumped another 14.64 damage into the IS mech.

Because torso twisting is not instantaneous and human reaction time is from 0.17 to 0.25 seconds you're going to eat about 72 pts - almost exactly 20 more damage than you did.

That's not even taking into account that the Clan mech can do this at 15% more range.

Now, the extra frosting -

That IS loadout is 14 slots and 20 tons. The Clan loadout is 12 slots and 14 tons. So the Clan mech is also going to have 6 extra DHS available instantly - given that he's got 7 extra slots because CEndo, he's instantly ahead. Because of CXL he will universally have more total tonnage and slots available at the same tonnage of mech so he'll generally have another 1-3 extra DHS beyond that extra over the IS mech, giving him 7-9 extra DHS.

This means that even though he's generating more heat with that alpha he'll actually cool to 0 heat first.

So, to put it more simply, no. You can not 'twist off' the HLL/cerml burn as an IS mech. You are losing that trade from beginning to end, by a large margin. You are losing it on alpha in the time exposed, you're losing it on damage/tic, you're losing it on range and you're losing it on heat/cooling/sustainable DPS.

People seem to think that their opinions or anecdotal experience means something. They do not. Your opinion is irrelevant, your anecdotal experiences (with your incredibly untrustworthy human brain we all have. Your memory is incredibly inaccurate and untrustworthy as a tool) is totally irrelevant. The math however is the math and it's pretty clear.

While it's hypothetically possible that math doesn't actually work the way we think it does and that every single player in this game who's better than you is, conversely, totally ignorant of how the game plays compared to you, both of those are a pretty huge stretch.

The reality is that you're absolutely wrong. Demonstratively wrong. Thinking your right or 'feeling' you're right doesn't make you right. Being right makes you right, and you are absolutely not right.

Edited to add -

Because I'm sure it will come up:

IS build DPS is 11.52, Clan build is 12.26.

Yes, even with 'better IS cooldowns' and such the Clan build is doing more total DPS.

Edited by MischiefSC, 05 November 2017 - 08:25 PM.

[Jackal Noble]

The IS vomit option is 60 alpha viable to 400 meters

and it will blow off and or core a component in the time it takes you to blink. Don't think I can't roll off a HLL build? try me?

Add me in game, and I will literally roll that all day long.

Edited by JackalBeast, 05 November 2017 - 08:44 PM.

[MischiefSC]

JackalBeast, on 05 November 2017 - 08:42 PM, said:

The IS vomit option is 60 alpha viable to 400 meters

IS LPLs are even worse. That's not the IS vomit option because 3 LPLs and 6 ERMLs is 6 tons heavier for 3 more damage and 5.25 more heat. At least go 3 Large, 6 ERMLs - which still leaves you 15 damage behind on the burn and an additional 7 tons heavier (several more DHS).

3 Large, 5 ERMLs. About as good as you're going to get, and you want it on a WHR/GHR.

[Mcgral18]

JackalBeast, on 05 November 2017 - 08:08 PM, said:

Try killing me in my laser warhammer in your Hellbringer (cause you adore your ECM, don't you).
You get to shoot once, I'll mosy on up and core you out while your weapons cooldown. no prob.

If you say so...
My Helbie doesn't actually go full Vomit
He chooses only 5 ERMLs and 1 HLL (instead of the popular 2HLL version)


He also has MGs. So, a Hammy could possibly even have greater firepower! Magical.
Neither can remove all ST armor in a single shot, but the MGs could probably take away the last ~5 points, unless your Hammy is doing something strange. I've never used them much. Bought one in the Quirkening, got 1167Avg damage (yay 4 matches) and then nerfed...haven't touched it since.

[Jackal Noble]

Mcgral18, on 05 November 2017 - 09:14 PM, said:

If you say so...
My Helbie doesn't actually go full Vomit
He chooses only 5 ERMLs and 1 HLL (instead of the popular 2HLL version)


He also has MGs. So, a Hammy could possibly even have greater firepower! Magical.
Neither can remove all ST armor in a single shot, but the MGs could probably take away the last ~5 points, unless your Hammy is doing something strange. I've never used them much. Bought one in the Quirkening, got 1167Avg damage (yay 4 matches) and then nerfed...haven't touched it since.

Good thing it has all that sweet structure that gets amped thanks to Skilltree.

[MischiefSC]

JackalBeast, on 05 November 2017 - 09:20 PM, said:

Good thing it has all that sweet structure that gets amped thanks to Skilltree.

7 pts.

Seven.

Seven total points of 'that amped sweet structure'. Which, with full survival skill tree (which you shouldn't intelligently take on laservomit anyway, you need all the heat nodes in Firepower and Ops so you only get the left side of the tree) you're going get....

DRUM ROLL PLEASE!

about 1 extra point in each ST because of 'all that sweet structure that gets amped'.

So 8 total more ST structure over the HBR.

Which, with crits on his MGs, is literally statistically worth about 2.67 structure. Even if you call it 8 pts he's doing more than that in additional damage to you every time he pulls the trigger not including crits. Your sweet extra structure is literally wiped out the first time he shoots you when you shoot him. One shot.

Not kidding here, you really need to learn to math stuff. Reality isn't flexible relative to your opinions. It's going to win every time.

Edited by MischiefSC, 05 November 2017 - 09:29 PM.

[Rhent]

It's pretty easy, put up a max single fire damage of 30 to 45 points before automatic shutdown depending on what the devs come up with and a lot of the alpha crap goes away. The game is what it is now because they took a PnP ruleset that was never set up for aimed firing and tried to keep the original damage values and heat in place. It has never worked well and when you have the capability to one shot mech, it ain't exactly working well.

[Jackal Noble]

MischiefSC, on 05 November 2017 - 09:27 PM, said:

7 pts.

Seven.

Seven total points of 'that amped sweet structure'. Which, with full survival skill tree (which you shouldn't intelligently take on laservomit anyway, you need all the heat nodes in Firepower and Ops so you only get the left side of the tree) you're going get....

DRUM ROLL PLEASE!

about 1 extra point in each ST because of 'all that sweet structure that gets amped'.

So 8 total more ST structure over the HBR.

Which, with crits on his MGs, is literally statistically worth about 2.67 structure. Even if you call it 8 pts he's doing more than that in additional damage to you every time he pulls the trigger not including crits. Your sweet extra structure is literally wiped out the first time he shoots you when you shoot him. One shot.

Not kidding here, you really need to learn to math stuff. Reality isn't flexible relative to your opinions. It's going to win every time.

I mean you really want to go there and not be vacuous, then by all means. It's just not very becoming of you Mischief.
MGs got a hefty lil nerf btw. lol MGs. Not to say you can't use them, but two? lol

14.28 dps vs 12.26 if you want to go there.
On the other hand
DPS/T 7.29 vs 8.56 so there is that.
But wait there's more
DPH is 10.8 vs 8.92

Please math god for me some more.

[Jackal Noble]

But since we are not in a vacuum.

Let's look at it in a scenario where potatoes don't stare and are aware to fire and either use cover, or roll armor.
0.67 Large pulse is the outlier here.
0.9 sec ER-med is the median
1.25 sec for C-ER Med, still very powerful but crazy cooldown. ~30% warmer.
1.55 sec for Heavy LL, again very powerful but crazy hot and 5.75 cooldown for a total 7.3 second turnaround. a whopping 45% more heat

both mechs fire at the same time and retreat and fire when next plausible and or alternate their fire.
Screw it, we will just say that they fire at each other and retreat when done firing. done.

For the purpose of illustrating, this is using a 3 lpl/6 er med WHM-6D and a 2HL/6 er-med Hellbringer.
At the 0.9 second mark

IS - 60 points of damage
CLAN - 51.143 damage
C-ER MEDs - 0.9s /1.25s =0.72 x 7 damage = 5.3 x 6 = 30.24
Heavy Large Laser - 0.9s /1.55 s = 0.58 x 18 damage = 10.45 x 2 = 20.9

good luck on firing those HLL again by the time they are blown off.

Edited by JackalBeast, 05 November 2017 - 10:42 PM.

[El Bandito]

JackalBeast, on 05 November 2017 - 10:40 PM, said:

Screw it, we will just say that they fire at each other and retreat when done firing. done.

For the purpose of illustrating, this is using a 3 lpl/6 er med WHM-6D and a 2HL/6 er-med Hellbringer.
At the 0.9 second mark

IS - 60 points of damage
CLAN - 51.143 damage
C-ER MEDs - 0.9s /1.25s =0.72 x 7 damage = 5.3 x 6 = 30.24
Heavy Large Laser - 0.9s /1.55 s = 0.58 x 18 damage = 10.45 x 2 = 20.9

good luck on firing those HLL again by the time they are blown off.

Your example is flawed as well, as MWO is not a 1v1 affair.

1. In order to fit in 3xLPL+6xERML, the Warhammer must use XL engine to run reasonably fast. Which means it is potentially much more fragile, compared to the Hellbringer--especially in 12v12.

2. Even with XL engine, you simply can't sustain the alpha as well as that of the Hellbringer. Smurphy will tell you that.

3. Warhammer simply can't shoot and retreat in the space of 0.9 second, which means the Hellbringer will be able to finish off its full duration of 78 damage. Combined with IS XL, the odds are not very good for the Warhammer.

[Jackal Noble]

LIGHT 300
16 DHS vs 17 with an XL325

The heat difference of output vs cooldown is still better than the Hellbringer. Not tremendously but still is.

Not disputing that the Hellbringer is a beast of a mech in today's scene, k.

Was wondering when you'd show back up

Edited by JackalBeast, 05 November 2017 - 11:15 PM.

[Jackal Noble]

And it was a direct comparison

[Jackal Noble]

And since a 1v1 scenario is no good, and a 12v12 scenario is desired. Why not lump in the 4v4 scenario and the 48v48 scenario? Cuz it's so nice to just get bowled over, get one shot off before your mech is buried under tread, but hey. Must be the crazy OP lazor builds doing that work.

[Jay Leon Hart]

JackalBeast, on 05 November 2017 - 10:40 PM, said:

For the purpose of illustrating, this is using a 3 lpl/6 er med WHM-6D and a 2HL/6 er-med Hellbringer.
good luck on firing those HLL again by the time they are blown off.

JackalBeast, on 05 November 2017 - 11:14 PM, said:

LIGHT 300
16 DHS vs 17 with an XL325

I know, I didn't do the skill trees, but have a look at your 'mechs fight. Red Team can't be set to "Alpha, no Overheat" because it's too hot

http://www.4eye-labs...0048e4d89c957e1 *Fixed* http://www.4eye-labs...8a9d45af567a157
WHM-6D build
HBR build *Fixed* HBR build

[Edit] Whoops! Forgot about that 2E arm [/Edit]

Edited by Jay Leon Hart, 06 November 2017 - 12:09 AM.

[MischiefSC]

JackalBeast, on 05 November 2017 - 09:58 PM, said:

I mean you really want to go there and not be vacuous, then by all means. It's just not very becoming of you Mischief.
MGs got a hefty lil nerf btw. lol MGs. Not to say you can't use them, but two? lol

14.28 dps vs 12.26 if you want to go there.
On the other hand
DPS/T 7.29 vs 8.56 so there is that.
But wait there's more
DPH is 10.8 vs 8.92

Please math god for me some more.

DPS/Ton means nothing. For the heat management loss you've lost a total of 12 tons vs the Clan mech, which can only come from reduced DHS both from a smaller engine, which means less in engine DHS, plus additional DHS.

You literally can't use the higher DPS because you'll heatcap too fast if you refire the LPLs as fast as they can. Even if you run XL and we'll just pretend that you don't suffer a huge survivability loss for that, your best possible setup is a 325 and a total of 17 DHS. You're unable to use that DPS because you can't cool your mech fast enough.

By comparison the Clan mech, even at 5-10 tons lighter with a EBJ or a MDD with 2 HLLs, 4 CERMLs and 2 LMGs can carry 23 DHS. Even the HBR (which doesn't even have FF/Endo) can carry 22 with 2 HLLs and 6 cermls.

Which gives it vastly better cooling efficiency which directly equates to DPS.

I get that you want to pretend things work a certain way but they don't. They flat out don't. For QP most Clan mechs go with 2 HLLs or 1 HLL and 5 or 6 cermls in a heavy, just to get better heat management because without a good team you can't trust that they'll cover you when you do heatcap.

Yet even mediocre Clan builds are better than your 3 LPL 6 ERML WHR build.

FFS at least take 3 LLs instead of LPLs. Better range synergy, more heat manageable and 6 tons means you can at least go something like this, however it's still XL and hotter and lower firepower with worse range. It is at least better than your LPL build though.

No, the heat management is vastly worse on the build you described than the HBR. 16 DHS is 24% in smurfy (which isn't the ideal way to calculate but at least it's a relative measure). The HBR, even with 2 HLLs and 6 cermls, is at 35% because 22 DHS.

Again. LPLs are a very poor choice for a heavy laservomit. Maybe on a medium that's just 3 LPLs, because of the changes in cooldown if you're running it as a push build I guess. Not the best option for that role but at least it's something.

You keep trying to dodge the realities of the math. I would say test it vs Mcgral in a 1 v 1 but to be blunt he knows the game so much better than you he could beat you with a box of stale Fruit Rollups vs that WHR build, not to mention pretty much any mech you want to pick.

I get that you're now invested in this bad idea and you want to defend it but the idea is bad. It's a good 6+ months out of date and several things have changed since then. IS laservomit loses to Clan laservomit pretty universally. Before the ML/ERML nerfs you had some fringe situations (like poking with a Wolfhound) where the shorter duration, the range and heat could be leveraged but with the cooldown changes those ML/ERML based builds are nerfed in the one way they had some value, DPS.

[El Bandito]

JackalBeast, on 05 November 2017 - 11:14 PM, said:

LIGHT 300
16 DHS vs 17 with an XL325

The heat difference of output vs cooldown is still better than the Hellbringer. Not tremendously but still is.

1. In peekaboo match, cooldown doesn't matter much. Alpha damage does.

2. Hellbringer will have noticeably better cooling efficiency (up to 24 DHS) than 16 DHS Warhammer.

Edited by El Bandito, 06 November 2017 - 12:04 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Jay Leon Hart, on 05 November 2017 - 11:52 PM, said:

I know, I didn't do the skill trees, but have a look at your 'mechs fight. Red Team can't be set to "Alpha, no Overheat" because it's too hot

http://www.4eye-labs...0048e4d89c957e1 *Fixed* http://www.4eye-labs...8a9d45af567a157
WHM-6D build
HBR build *Fixed* HBR build

[Edit] Whoops! Forgot about that 2E arm [/Edit]

Cool concept but it also says that a 2x RAC 5, 2 x UAC10 Anni defeats a Deathstrike *easily*. Even when the Deathstrike is aiming for the XL ST in the Anni.

Clearly we have a new, previously unknown meta!

[Jay Leon Hart]

MischiefSC, on 06 November 2017 - 12:27 AM, said:

Cool concept but it also says that a 2x RAC 5, 2 x UAC10 Anni defeats a Deathstrike *easily*. Even when the Deathstrike is aiming for the XL ST in the Anni.

Clearly we have a new, previously unknown meta!

Yeah, it's not perfect. One of the things I liked was, if set to target STs, the WHM removed the HBR's ST before it could fire again, but then it cooled so much faster, it shredded both the WHM's STs. The WHM could only just get to structure on the 2nd ST before it was dead.

[Jackal Noble]

Now sim it with that same 3 LL, 6 Med build with a light 300. Tried to look at that 4eyes sim lab and it wouldn't load. Neat tho.

[Jay Leon Hart]

JackalBeast, on 06 November 2017 - 01:51 AM, said:

Now sim it with that same 3 LL, 6 Med build with a light 300. Tried to look at that 4eyes sim lab and it wouldn't load. Neat tho.

OK then. You're wasting 2.5 tons using only a 300, you could bump it up to a 310 with no loss, or a 315 shaving some armour. Personally, I'd drop 1 DHS and bump it to a 325.

WHM build v2

FIGHT!

[Edit] In case you meant 6 ML & not 6 ERML

WHM build v2b

FIGHT! [/Edit]

[Edit2] The LL version fares better than the LPL one fighting STs (yellow structure on 2nd HBR ST before WHM dies) and the ML fares better than the ERML one if you drop the engagement range to 270m (red structure on 2nd HBR ST before WHM dies). [/Edit2]

Edited by Jay Leon Hart, 06 November 2017 - 02:09 AM.