221 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

Nema Nabojiv, on 05 November 2017 - 07:07 AM, said:

I fail to see how you angst for clans invalidates the fact that ppc+gauss meta were alive and kicking since the beginning of times.

The same way you fail to see how a pair of 6-ton ERPPC doing 30 PPFLD whilst supported by 22-24 DHS and 5x JJs is OP?

I'm not surprised in the least.

That said, you might consider looking into this thing called "context." This is a thread about the post-Clan MWO. Work it out, you sweet summer child.

[davoodoo]

I remember gausspult which introduced charge
and boomjager which is example of mech ruining dual ac20 for later mechs...unless 100 tonner cant have dual ac20 is the hill you want to die on.

Edited by davoodoo, 05 November 2017 - 07:14 AM.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Yeonne Greene, on 05 November 2017 - 07:12 AM, said:

The same way you fail to see how a pair of 6-ton ERPPC doing 30 PPFLD whilst supported by 22-24 DHS and 5x JJs is OP?

so you talking about 36 tonns for 30 alpha? You are right, I fail to see how that is OP.

[JC Daxion]

Yeonne Greene, on 05 November 2017 - 06:50 AM, said:

It takes 8 energy hardpoints for the IS to get near a Clan alpha achieved with only six energy hardpoints.

The best extreme range Clan Assault uses 5 lasers. The best mid-range Clan assault uses six lasers and two ballistics, runner up four and two. The best close-range Clan Assault uses two ballistics and four missiles.

It's not just the quantity of guns, it's the quality of those guns and the supporting infrastructure.

Ok, BUT, this is what i am talking about.. That is the energy meta that is going around now.. So you pick up a IS mech that can carry 8 lasers.. Or a clan mech that can carry what ever.. The meta changes to missiles.. Now that IS mech is no longer used, and the clan guy just swaps omni's

For instance, For a long time the stormcrow was the goto medium. when it was lasers, they just packed on the pods. when it switched to streaks, they swapped pods, when it was SRM's, again they swapped the pods. SO that mech that has the bonus of being mobile/fast, just swapped around, while the IS guy had to maybe give up being mobile, or maybe the mech had JJ's and has to give them up to use the missiles.


Now take new pods being introduced. Kit fox, Huntsman, Summoner, Hellbringer, mistlinx, ACH to name a few. All mechs that had some major jumps to being able to play the "new meta's" just because of OMNI's. On the IS side, the meta shift means find a mech that can fit it, Not swap pods to make it meta.


And what you are talking about is the META now.. and when that changes, you swap pods and keep on trucking. Yes it's balance, and what is going on now.. But i think people vastly underestimate what omni's do for balance, and why clans seam to be running at the tops more often than not, because you can easily make that top clan mech work under the new meta. Where as the IS mech, that maybe has to rely on some quirks and fixed hard points, can't just add 2 more energy points or swap to what ever and make that solid mech stay king.

[Tarogato]

Jun Watarase, on 05 November 2017 - 06:40 AM, said:

Most omni mechs are actually garbage. Off the top of my head :

Lights :

Mist Lynx : Only one decent build, and that requires boating MGs in easily shot off arms
Artic cheetah : Only one decent build, and that requires boating MGs in easily shot off arms
Kitfox - 97 KPH light with bad hitboxes LOL
Adder - 97 KPH light with bad hitboxes LOL
Cougar - 81 KPH light with bad hitboxes LOL

Mediums :

Viper : No pod space, bad hit boxes
Artic Wolf : Inferior to the battlemech version in almost every way, bad hitboxes
Ice Ferret : No pod space
Shadow Cat : No hardpoints, bad hitboxes, low pod space
Huntsman : Mediocre
Stormcrow : Mediocre

Heavies :

Mad Dog : Bad hitboxes, low slung weapon arms, relies on missiles, max missile hardpoints if you want armor quirks is 3
Ebon Jaguar : Bad hitboxes, only good if you boat mid-long range laser vomit
Hellbringer : Low pod space, only good if you boat mid-long range laser vomit
Summoner : No pod space, only niche use is for ER PPC poptarts in comp matches
Nova Cat : Bad hitboxes, low slung weapon arms, VERY easy to shoot off arms
Night Gyr : Agility of an assault, locked JJs are more or less useless, niche builds for hot maps

Assaults :

Gargoyle : No pod space
Warhawk : Low slung weapon arms, bad hit boxes, locked equipment basically means theres maybe 2 useful builds for it
Executioner : No pod space
Dire Wolf : Bad hit boxes, inferior to the Annihilator/Kodiak/KGC in every way

Thats like 2 lights that are decent with one build, two mediums that are mediocre and two heavies that are decent with one build. Not counting battlemechs.

Okay, let me rewrite this post in a way that is more accurate.

Lights :

Mist Lynx : Only one decent build, and that requires boating MGs in easily shot off arms
Artic cheetah : Consistently one of the best lights in the game ever since its inception
Kitfox - Best midrange light mech in the game with the introduction of hero pods
Adder - definitely is bad because of durability issues.
Cougar - Best midrange light mech in the if you don't count the hero Kitfox

Mediums :

Viper : Was the best pseudo-light in the game until the cSPL nerf
Artic Wolf : Inferior to the battlemech version in almost every way
Ice Ferret : Was one of the best pseudo-lights in the game until the cSPL nerf
Shadow Cat : One of the best harassers in the game, and a good brawler.
Huntsman : Possibly second-best medium in the game right now.
Nova: Was the best brawling medium in the game until cSPL nerf. It's still very good.
Stormcrow : Still better than pretty much every IS mech

Heavies :

Mad Dog : Best brawling heavy in the game.
Ebon Jaguar : Best midrange heavy in the game
Hellbringer : One of the best midrange heavies in the game
Linebacker: One of the most tanky, versatile heavies in the game
Summoner : Very very tanky, does well in multiple roles but not the best at any one of them
Nova Cat : No comment, I don't have much experience with this mech.
Night Gyr : Most powerful heavy in the game
Timber Wolf: One of the best and most versatile heavies in the game.

Assaults :

Gargoyle : Was the best brawling assault in the game until cSPL nerf. With new pods VERY good at laservomit.
Warhawk : One of the best long range DPS mechs in the game.
Executioner : One of the better brawling assaults in the game, also very good with laservomit.
Dire Wolf : One of the most powerful assaults in the game.



If you're interested, I've love to give you some 1v1s to demonstrate that any of these mechs (of the ones I own) are still capable of delivering a proper aѕs-whoopin'.

[Bud Crue]

Nema Nabojiv, on 05 November 2017 - 06:42 AM, said:

Oh you sweet summer child. You have no idea about the days of glory, when jumpjets made you fly and Cataphract 3Ds, Highlanders and Dragon Slayers dominated the battlefields.

Sure but if we are talking the current state of imbalance the most recent gauss/PPC meta was due to height of hard points the one "back in the day" was due to mechs getting up high via jump jets. Difference of course being: back then there were no clan mechs.

[Kin3ticX]

Tarogato, on 05 November 2017 - 07:39 AM, said:

Okay, let me rewrite this post in a way that is more accurate.

Lights :

Mist Lynx : Only one decent build, and that requires boating MGs in easily shot off arms
Artic cheetah : Consistently one of the best lights in the game ever since its inception
Kitfox - Best midrange light mech in the game with the introduction of hero pods
Adder - definitely is bad because of durability issues.
Cougar - Best midrange light mech in the if you don't count the hero Kitfox

Mediums :

Viper : Was the best pseudo-light in the game until the cSPL nerf
Artic Wolf : Inferior to the battlemech version in almost every way
Ice Ferret : Was one of the best pseudo-lights in the game until the cSPL nerf
Shadow Cat : One of the best harassers in the game, and a good brawler.
Huntsman : Possibly second-best medium in the game right now.
Nova: Was the best brawling medium in the game until cSPL nerf. It's still very good.
Stormcrow : Still better than pretty much every IS mech

Heavies :

Mad Dog : Best brawling heavy in the game.
Ebon Jaguar : Best midrange heavy in the game
Hellbringer : One of the best midrange heavies in the game
Linebacker: One of the most tanky, versatile heavies in the game
Summoner : Very very tanky, does well in multiple roles but not the best at any one of them
Nova Cat : No comment, I don't have much experience with this mech.
Night Gyr : Most powerful heavy in the game
Timber Wolf: One of the best and most versatile heavies in the game.

Assaults :

Gargoyle : Was the best brawling assault in the game until cSPL nerf. With new pods VERY good at laservomit.
Warhawk : One of the best long range DPS mechs in the game.
Executioner : One of the better brawling assaults in the game, also very good with laservomit.
Dire Wolf : One of the most powerful assaults in the game.



If you're interested, I've love to give you some 1v1s to demonstrate that any of these mechs (of the ones I own) are still capable of delivering a proper aѕs-whoopin'.

I'd differ with some of this(a couple of these) but its pretty accurate in MWO forums terms.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 05 November 2017 - 07:54 AM.

[Asym]

Ah, having read just a little bit of the history of MW and I appauld you investment of time; the depth of gamplay realities you introduce; the personal energy invested and technical knowledge of all things MW; I find that I really have one thought after two pages of in-depth analysis:

there never was nor could be "balance" in the MW universe becuase the two design theories come from and are opposite cultures........
That is the MW story: the imbalance itself and the strengths and weaknesses of both cultures...
The answer to balance is that there should not be any balance at all......the mechs should be as designed in MW history and the skill in adapting to that in-balance is where the pilot skill comes in.....
It wasn't "fair to begin with" and the results came from not what was "balance" but rather, how individual pilots best used what they had??? The goal isn't to make this game fair.......the goal is in having opposing choices that are based on your skills.

You'all are so smart you've missed the point IMHO.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Asym, on 05 November 2017 - 08:01 AM, said:

The answer to balance is that there should not be any balance at all

You'all are so smart you've missed the point IMHO.

You do not understand how successful PvP games work. Or how to use ellipses. Please stop.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Bud Crue, on 05 November 2017 - 07:43 AM, said:

Sure but if we are talking the current state of imbalance the most recent gauss/PPC meta was due to height of hard points the one "back in the day" was due to mechs getting up high via jump jets. Difference of course being: back then there were no clan mechs.

Soo, let me reiterate what you are saying.
1. Before the clans there were no gauss+ppc meta.
2. But IS JJ gaus+ppc meta was ok, eventhough there were no such meta before the clans.
3. And clan gauss+ppc meta is imbalance because hardpoints (ikd which mech exacly had such superb hardpoints but lets say it was ebon jag because nothing else comes to mind)

I got it.

[FantasticMrDark]

Tarogato, on 05 November 2017 - 07:39 AM, said:

Warhawk : One of the best long range DPS mechs in the game.

Im not sure where the whole "warhawk is bad" thing keeps coming from. The thing is amazing with 4 ERPPC/4LPL/2Gauss+flamer. Especially when you compare it to the IS 85 laser boat the Stalker which is engine locked really hard, doesn't have Structure or Mobility quirks, and of course doesn't get magic clan tech.

Edited by FantasticMrDark, 05 November 2017 - 08:18 AM.

[Bombast]

Nema Nabojiv, on 05 November 2017 - 08:10 AM, said:

2. But IS JJ gaus+ppc meta was ok, eventhough there were no such meta before the clans.

Absolutely no one said that.

[Bud Crue]

Nema Nabojiv, on 05 November 2017 - 08:10 AM, said:

Soo, let me reiterate what you are saying.
1. Before the clans there were no gauss+ppc meta.
2. But IS JJ gaus+ppc meta was ok, eventhough there were no such meta before the clans.
3. And clan gauss+ppc meta is imbalance because hardpoints (ikd which mech exacly had such superb hardpoints but lets say it was ebon jag because nothing else comes to mind)

I got it.

No. Not at all. I used an example to illustrate an adjacent point. Your apparently not following the continuity of the point being discussed (clan IS imbalance) and how my original point is merely a single example to illustrate that CLANS having more high hard point mechs impact this imbalance.

[MischiefSC]

Nema Nabojiv, on 05 November 2017 - 07:31 AM, said:

so you talking about 36 tonns for 30 alpha? You are right, I fail to see how that is OP.

Then I hope you are always on the other team.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Bud Crue, on 05 November 2017 - 08:20 AM, said:

No. Not at all. I used an example to illustrate an adjacent point. Your apparently not following the continuity of the point being discussed (clan IS imbalance) and how my original point is merely a single example to illustrate that CLANS having more high hard point mechs impact this imbalance.

So the quote below apparently was not written by you. Must have been your cat.

Bud Crue, on 05 November 2017 - 06:04 AM, said:

e.g. Gauss/PPC "meta" was only the "meta" because of a few mechs. All of them were clan.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Nema Nabojiv, on 05 November 2017 - 08:32 AM, said:

So the quote below apparently was not written by you. Must have been your cat.

Clearly you missed the follow up.

Bud Crue, on 05 November 2017 - 07:43 AM, said:

Sure but if we are talking the current state of imbalance the most recent gauss/PPC meta was due to height of hard points the one "back in the day" was due to mechs getting up high via jump jets. Difference of course being: back then there were no clan mechs.

Emphasis mine.

Questions? Comments?

[TheArisen]

I agree Clan alphas are a problem but as others have said, their tech is what allows bloated alphas. However I think you missed when talking about omni's, the last 3 meta kings have been Clan battlemechs, Kodiak then Marauder IIc and now Mat Cat2.

[MischiefSC]

Asym, on 05 November 2017 - 08:01 AM, said:

Ah, having read just a little bit of the history of MW and I appauld you investment of time; the depth of gamplay realities you introduce; the personal energy invested and technical knowledge of all things MW; I find that I really have one thought after two pages of in-depth analysis:

there never was nor could be "balance" in the MW universe becuase the two design theories come from and are opposite cultures........
That is the MW story: the imbalance itself and the strengths and weaknesses of both cultures...
The answer to balance is that there should not be any balance at all......the mechs should be as designed in MW history and the skill in adapting to that in-balance is where the pilot skill comes in.....
It wasn't "fair to begin with" and the results came from not what was "balance" but rather, how individual pilots best used what they had??? The goal isn't to make this game fair.......the goal is in having opposing choices that are based on your skills.

You'all are so smart you've missed the point IMHO.

Absolutely false.

The game was balanced prior to Clan release. Clan release was identified as a terrible and a balance failure of the worst sort. Battletech is balanced 1 to 1. Any forum that talks about TT Battletech to this day still references the munchkins who loved the OP Clan tech of 3057 because it was game rule justification for getting to play broken OP stuff and say "Yes but the games designed this way! You have to play redshirts for me so I can show off my SKILLZ!"

It's also a turn based tabletop strategy game and was built around everyone playing multiple mechs, vehicles and infantry. To point to the worst, least respected failure in the games otherwise balanced history and say that's how it's supposed to be isn't just disingenuous, it highlights why the IP nearly failed completely, people voided it in droves or just went back to 3025 and why they did the Jihad and nuked the game setting back the ground zero to reboot with 1 to 1 tech balance.

[LordNothing]

the reasons for the clan is disparity are many:

clan have more hardpoints, even on their battlemechs. fix: is omnis that dont suck. and stop inflating clan battlemechs more than is battlemechs.

clan have better lasers. fix: is reflective armor.

clan upgrades take half the space on mechs that have them. fix: make is upgrades more valuable. for example make clan ferro split the difference between is ferro and is light ferro.

clans have lighter weapons. fix: equivalent is weapons that are heavier and take more space than clan equivalents need to be better. this is true in some cases, like ballistics, but not all.

clans have the best ppc in the game. fix: blueshield.

clans have smaller heat sinks. fix: either make is dhs better, or include other heat sink options, like compact heat sinks.

clanxl vs isxl. fix: give is-xl more hitpoints or st armor/structure buffs so its harder to crit out, give it mobility buffs over other engine options.

[C E Dwyer]

Nema Nabojiv, on 05 November 2017 - 06:42 AM, said:

Oh you sweet summer child. You have no idea about the days of glory, when jumpjets made you fly and Cataphract 3Ds, Highlanders and Dragon Slayers dominated the battlefields.

I thought guass charge ups and the death of JJ's happened before clans arrived..