221 replies to this topic

[Sjorpha]

Cathy, on 05 November 2017 - 09:23 AM, said:

I thought guass charge ups and the death of JJ's happened before clans arrived..

Charge up happened way before, but charge up has never been a problem for poptarting so that didn't affect that meta which was still dominant when the clans released.

There was a short overlap after clan release before the JJ nerf happened, during which mechs like Timber Wolf with gauss+2PPC+3ERML outclassed the old poptarts (Dragon Slayer and CTF-3D). Then JJs and PPC velocity were killed and clan laser vomit took over. After that we had the clan laser vomit and gauss vomit meta, the short period when some IS mechs had strong enough quirks to be competitive, followed by the giganerf of IS quirks bringing the clan gaussvomit and laser vomit back into dominance, followed by even more nerfs to the already invalidated IS plus the release of Night Gyr and Kodiak bringing back the Gauss/PPC meta with poptarting once again powerful (but now exclusively good on clan mechs), followed by the rescale and even more nerfs to IS quirks and then things were that way for a good while until PGI killed the Gauss/PPC combo and brought back laser vomit/gauss vomit into dominance again, and here we are.

And the reason IS and Clan is and always has been that Clan tech is so much better, and that PGI refuses to do anything about it.

Edited by Sjorpha, 05 November 2017 - 09:41 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Eh, got the meta timeline a bit out of whack. IIRC, this is the progression from early 2014 to present:

> VTR-DS/CTF-3D Gauss+PPC/UAC Meta
> TBR Gauss+PPC Poptart meta
> Clan TBR/Space Whale Laser-Vomit/Gauss-Vomit Meta
> IS Laser Vomit Meta
> Mixed Brawl-Overwatch Meta
> KDK-3 + Clan Poptart Meta
> Clan ERLL/Gauss-Vomit + Summoner Meta (Present)

[Asym]

Jay Leon Hart, on 05 November 2017 - 08:06 AM, said:

You do not understand how successful PvP games work. Or how to use ellipses. Please stop.

Actually, I do; but that's neither here nor there.....

Opinion is opinion.... I don't find fault with yours and this isn't a graduate paper either: I grade them all of the time......
As a customer, who's been around since there was a first MW title and game, I don't see balance as a necessity for success. Fun, is a necessity for success; no matter the gameplay dynamics...

[Y E O N N E]

Asym, on 05 November 2017 - 09:47 AM, said:

Actually, I do; but that's neither here nor there.....

Opinion is opinion.... I don't find fault with yours and this isn't a graduate paper either: I grade them all of the time......
As a customer, who's been around since there was a first MW title and game, I don't see balance as a necessity for success. Fun, is a necessity for success; no matter the gameplay dynamics...

None of the other MW titles were entirely dependent on PvP to provide the fun.

[Gas Guzzler]

Nema Nabojiv, on 05 November 2017 - 06:42 AM, said:

Oh you sweet summer child. You have no idea about the days of glory, when jumpjets made you fly and Cataphract 3Ds, Highlanders and Dragon Slayers dominated the battlefields.

You mean before Clan mechs were added to the game? LOL

Nema Nabojiv, on 05 November 2017 - 07:07 AM, said:

I fail to see how you angst for clans invalidates the fact that ppc+gauss meta were alive and kicking since the beginning of times.

The game several years ago was a completely different game. And also... the post you were responding to was referring to 2 ERPPCs and 2 Gauss, which wasn't doable by the IS until the King Crab, and even then, it was done quite poorly.

Jun Watarase, on 05 November 2017 - 06:40 AM, said:

Dire Wolf : Bad hit boxes, inferior to the Annihilator/Kodiak/KGC in every way

The Dire Wolf is better than all three of those.

Yeonne Greene, on 05 November 2017 - 07:12 AM, said:

That said, you might consider looking into this thing called "context." This is a thread about the post-Clan MWO. Work it out, you sweet summer child.

Savage AF

[Deathlike]

I like how the reasoning stated by the OP is nowhere near the actual comp level understanding of the game.

The better part is that it is confirmed by people (aka, the OP's first like) that totally don't understand the game.

So, keep guessing guys, you'll surely eventually get it right soon™.

[Bombast]

[Redacted]

Edited by draiocht, 05 November 2017 - 11:24 AM.
Insults / Ad Hominem, replies removed

[Asym]

Yeonne Greene, on 05 November 2017 - 09:49 AM, said:

None of the other MW titles were entirely dependent on PvP to provide the fun.

True. But, they were fun; weren't they.......? I would not be here otherwise (although, I did intentionally avoide MWO for years due to the below average ratings). Many other PvP games are complicated as all get out and yet, are fun !

[Gas Guzzler]

I'm actually not completely on board with the "completely butcher Clan alpha strikes" brigade. They just need to be tuned. Frankly, the Dire becomes very sad when its firepower is neutered, because all it can really do is count on that devastating alpha. Its defense is a good offense.

[Y E O N N E]

Asym, on 05 November 2017 - 10:02 AM, said:

True. But, they were fun; weren't they.......? I would not be here otherwise (although, I did intentionally avoide MWO for years due to the below average ratings). Many other PvP games are complicated as all get out and yet, are fun !

How much of that fun came from the PvP though? That is the only relevant comparison you can be making, here, any fun that came from the PvE side is immaterial when looking at what they did and what MWO does.

I actually think MWO's core game is quite fun, and I like that the equipment on either side is more useful than it was in the previous MW games, where you just picked your chassis and shoved it full of Clan tech. That was boring.

[Kin3ticX]

Gas Guzzler, on 05 November 2017 - 10:02 AM, said:

I'm actually not completely on board with the "completely butcher Clan alpha strikes" brigade. They just need to be tuned. Frankly, the Dire becomes very sad when its firepower is neutered, because all it can really do is count on that devastating alpha. Its defense is a good offense.

That last patch was so far off course, I don't know if PGI is willing to tackle that hot potato.

From the last patch I guess PGI's message is run autocannons guise but on the whole, especially in solo queue, alpha tends to trump raw DPS. If dakka was the **** people would be running the quirked dragon en masse but its not that clean cut.

Anything less than a 40 alpha with lasers feels like pissing in the wind and clans are pushing 60+ EZ. You need a big IS mech to get a nice laser alpha. My 50ton 4P has a hard time getting over a 40 alpha whereas thats baseline for a Clan mech.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 05 November 2017 - 10:18 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Kin3ticX, on 05 November 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

Anything less than a 40 alpha with lasers feels like pissing in the wind and clans are pushing 60+ EZ. You need a big IS mech to get a nice laser alpha. My 50ton 4P has a hard time getting over a 40 alpha whereas thats baseline for a Clan mech.

Yeah, I don't run the BJ-1X as much anymore because it can't do 40 alpha without getting weird with sluggish LPPC or under-sinked and under-engined with LPL. It's a shadow of its former self. Apparently being able to alpha-strike for 40 damage with isERML or even ML + LPL is some kind of sin, but doing it with six cERML or cMPL is a-okay. Firing 4+4 ERML just isn't the same, not with that squish-factor.

[Gas Guzzler]

Kin3ticX, on 05 November 2017 - 10:17 AM, said:

That last patch was so far off course, I don't know if PGI is willing to tackle that hot potato.

From the last patch I guess PGI's message is run autocannons guise but on the whole, especially in solo queue, alpha tends to trump raw DPS. If dakka was the **** people would be running the quirked dragon en masse but its not that clean cut.

Anything less than a 40 alpha with lasers feels like pissing in the wind and clans are pushing 60+ EZ. You need a big IS mech to get a nice laser alpha. My 50ton 4P has a hard time getting over a 40 alpha whereas thats baseline for a Clan mech.

Yeah I need to pick up some IS mediums a little more, I feel like I'm not up on the solo queue meta when it comes to IS mediums. I've actually never been a Hunchback fan. Maybe I'll focus on that a bit after work.

[Kin3ticX]

Yeonne Greene, on 05 November 2017 - 10:23 AM, said:

Yeah, I don't run the BJ-1X as much anymore because it can't do 40 alpha without getting weird with sluggish LPPC or under-sinked and under-engined with LPL. It's a shadow of its former self. Apparently being able to alpha-strike for 40 damage with isERML or even ML + LPL is some kind of sin, but doing it with six cERML or cMPL is a-okay. Firing 4+4 ERML just isn't the same, not with that squish-factor.

I guarantee you PGI is 100% aware of this problem but does nothing because this game has too many sacred cows.

Anyone that says balance is good is lying or had no idea whats going on.

[MischiefSC]

Asym, on 05 November 2017 - 09:47 AM, said:

Actually, I do; but that's neither here nor there.....

Opinion is opinion.... I don't find fault with yours and this isn't a graduate paper either: I grade them all of the time......
As a customer, who's been around since there was a first MW title and game, I don't see balance as a necessity for success. Fun, is a necessity for success; no matter the gameplay dynamics...

Unbalance gameplay is fun for single player if you're a munchkin.

There's no unbalanced PvP game that's 'fun' for anything more than a tiny sliver of players.

Which is why there isn't an unbalanced PvP game that's ever been considered a success.

There have always been munchkins. They always say the same thing: "Unbalanced gameplay is fun and challenging! Oh, absolutely, I love playing the underdog, I'd do it all the time!" Then they only play boated CLPLs and CERPPCs and rage that the only reason nobody wants to play with them is they're just so good and that them playing 99.9999% of the time in the OP side is 'just a coincidence, you're just never there when I play the underdog but no, serious. I do it all the time. Now put your red shirts on.'

Which is why everyone has such contempt for munchkins. Long before computer games even came out. OP Clans and unbalanced gameplay is absolute **** and boring gameplay both for good and bad players. There's certainly nobody who is even vaguely 'competitive' with an interest in unbalanced gameplay, because self respect is a key part of what drives people to play competitively.

All opinions are not equal. Bad ideas are still bad. Someone liking a bad idea doesn't make it a good idea.

[MischiefSC]

Gas Guzzler, on 05 November 2017 - 10:25 AM, said:

Yeah I need to pick up some IS mediums a little more, I feel like I'm not up on the solo queue meta when it comes to IS mediums. I've actually never been a Hunchback fan. Maybe I'll focus on that a bit after work.

It just feels... weak. Like an under-gunned, slow and clumsy Huntsman. There's just nothing about them you can't do better, significantly better, with something else. It's unfortunate.

The only IS medium that I can still find pleasant surprises in is the Shadow Hawk. SRM2s or 4s with AC10s or 2x5s and LFE can get you some surprising burst and sustained DPS in a very nimble mech.

Otherwise it's a bushie or Griffin.

[Gas Guzzler]

MischiefSC, on 05 November 2017 - 10:33 AM, said:

It just feels... weak. Like an under-gunned, slow and clumsy Huntsman. There's just nothing about them you can't do better, significantly better, with something else. It's unfortunate.

The only IS medium that I can still find pleasant surprises in is the Shadow Hawk. SRM2s or 4s with AC10s or 2x5s and LFE can get you some surprising burst and sustained DPS in a very nimble mech.

Otherwise it's a bushie or Griffin.

I'm probably on an island but I've actually had moderate success with the 4 ERML Gauss Uziel.

[Y E O N N E]

Gas Guzzler, on 05 November 2017 - 10:25 AM, said:

Yeah I need to pick up some IS mediums a little more, I feel like I'm not up on the solo queue meta when it comes to IS mediums. I've actually never been a Hunchback fan. Maybe I'll focus on that a bit after work.

HBK-4P, Sparky, and BJ-1X for vomit.

BJ-3 and VND-1AA/1R for poptarting. I suppose you could use the SHD-2K, but I find that 'Mech to be way too stiff and seriously dislike driving it, even after trying to tweak its mobility in the skill tree. Could just be me.

ASN-21/23, GRF-3M/2N, SHD-2D2, CN9-AH, BSW-P1 for brawl.

BSW-X1 and SHD-2H for dakka. Honorable mentions for BJ-1 and BJ-1DC.

Actually, I want to take a moment and point out that the BJ-1DC is probably being underrated. It still has prodigious firepower quirks in the form of range for both ballistics and energy, energy duration, and ballistics heat+cooldown quirks. It's essentially a miniature RFL-3N and, where the latter is nasty with two UAC/5 and six ML, the BJ-1DC is similarly nasty with a UAC/10 and six ML. Squishy, but dangerous. It will do mid-range and long-range builds well, either pure lasers or mixed lasers and ballistics.

Kin3ticX, on 05 November 2017 - 10:28 AM, said:

I guarantee you PGI is 100% aware of this problem but does nothing because this game has too many sacred cows.

Anyone that says balance is good is lying or had no idea whats going on.

Probably. The cMPL in particular are pretty gross at the moment.

[Kin3ticX]

Yeonne Greene, on 05 November 2017 - 10:40 AM, said:

HBK-4P, Sparky, and BJ-1X for vomit.

BJ-3 and VND-1AA/1R for poptarting. I suppose you could use the SHD-2K, but I find that 'Mech to be way too stiff and seriously dislike driving it, even after trying to tweak its mobility in the skill tree. Could just be me.

ASN-21/23, GRF-3M/2N, SHD-2D2, CN9-AH, BSW-P1 for brawl.

BSW-X1 and SHD-2H for dakka. Honorable mentions for BJ-1 and BJ-1DC.

Actually, I want to take a moment and point out that the BJ-1DC is probably being underrated. It still has prodigious firepower quirks in the form of range for both ballistics and energy, energy duration, and ballistics heat+cooldown quirks. It's essentially a miniature RFL-3N and, where the latter is nasty with two UAC/5 and six ML, the BJ-1DC is similarly nasty with a UAC/10 and six ML. Squishy, but dangerous. It will do mid-range and long-range builds well, either pure lasers or mixed lasers and ballistics.



Probably. The cMPL in particular are pretty gross at the moment.

Srs question

What do you think the best 4P build is for solo queue?

[Y E O N N E]

Kin3ticX, on 05 November 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

Srs question

What do you think the best 4P build is for solo queue?

Probably this.

Alternatively, and you might give me a funny look for the ERSL, but this.

You can play around with standard MLs instead if you want, but really some variation between those two.