49 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

Defender Rococo Rockfowl, on 08 November 2017 - 07:37 PM, said:

No weapons in real life need a charge up, nor should they in this game.

Patently false, try again.

[Defender Rococo Rockfowl]

Yeonne Greene, on 08 November 2017 - 07:50 PM, said:

Patently false, try again.

Which weapons need a charge? I'm (genuinely) curious

[Khobai]

GAU8 avenger needs a fraction of a second to spool up before it destroys entire convoys of tanks and trucks

unlike the RAC2 which just plinks for miniscule damage

[Nightbird]

Khobai, on 08 November 2017 - 08:06 PM, said:

GAU8 avenger needs a fraction of a second to spool up before it destroys entire convoys of tanks and trucks

unlike the RAC2 which just plinks for miniscule damage

This weapon is in game actually, we call it the Light Machine Gun

[Khobai]

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This weapon is in game actually, we call it the Light Machine Gun

yeah the MWO equivalent of a GAU8 is basically a machine gun

but the RAC2 is like a GAU8 thats 10-12 times more massive. when it hits you it should friggin HURT. it shouldnt just be a tickle cannon.

[Nightbird]

It's not the weapons in Battletech that is scientifically advanced, it's the damned armor. Miraculous stuff.

[FupDup]

Nightbird, on 08 November 2017 - 08:13 PM, said:

It's not the weapons in Battletech that is scientifically advanced, it's the damned armor. Miraculous stuff.

Realistically speaking, I think an Atlas would probably get oneshotted by a Gauss slug to the front center torso.

Maybe it's not the armor though, maybe it's just the horrible weapons that have such pitiful range that make the armor seem so durable?

[The Lighthouse]

Yeonne Greene, on 08 November 2017 - 07:50 PM, said:

Patently false, try again.

Charge-up mechanics on Gauss Rifle is simply abomination if we talk about lore, relatively un-fun and worthless mechanics (because this never solved the problem of Gauss vomit builds until PGI linked PPC ghost heat to Gauss Rifle).

All of these mechanics is unnecessarily complicated. Previous games solved really, really simple yet effective solution.



Long cooldown.


Roll back to previous game's numbers. There is no way PPC should fire as fast as typical lasers in the first place. Increase PPC cooldown time to 8~10 seconds and increase the cooldown time of Gauss Rifles from 10~12 seconds. Leave the Cooldown of Light Gauss as it is. Then remove the charge up mechanics and PPC+Gauss Ghost heat altogether.

There, problem solved without unnecessary mechanics. Just clean cooldown changes.

Before anyone whines about the numbers, these numbers are from MW3, adjusted for MWO time.


Plus : also simply disallow mechs to fire Gauss Rifle while in air would prevent poptart problems greatly. After all Gauss Rifle is supposed to have a huge recoil and Mechs usually cannot put Gauss Rfiles on their arms due to recoil from lore. The fact that Mechs can pinpoint accurately fire Gauss Rifle in-air is non-sensual from both lore perspective and real science.

Edited by The Lighthouse, 08 November 2017 - 08:36 PM.

[Khobai]

id be fine with gauss having an 8 second cooldown instead of chargeup.

gauss would get so completely pulverized by DPS weapons then, then it literally would only be good for sniping

[WrathOfDeadguy]

I would love to see a charge-up mechanic implemented...







...for the Bombast Laser, when and if it is finally added to the game. Otherwise, no. Making the game mechanics more convoluted is never, ever the correct answer to balance problems.

[FupDup]

The Lighthouse, on 08 November 2017 - 08:32 PM, said:

Charge-up mechanics on Gauss Rifle is simply abomination if we talk about lore, relatively un-fun and worthless mechanics (because this never solved the problem of Gauss vomit builds until PGI linked PPC ghost heat to Gauss Rifle).

All of these mechanics is unnecessarily complicated. Previous games solved really, really simple yet effective solution.

Long cooldown.

Roll back to previous game's numbers. There is no way PPC should fire as fast as typical lasers in the first place. Increase PPC cooldown time to 8~10 seconds and increase the cooldown time of Gauss Rifles from 10~12 seconds. Leave the Cooldown of Light Gauss as it is. Then remove the charge up mechanics and PPC+Gauss Ghost heat altogether.

PGI actually tried that before. It just made Gauss go unused because it had absolutely garbage damage output and also waiting an eternity to reload is even more "unfun" than a charge-up mechanic will ever be.

The Lighthouse, on 08 November 2017 - 08:32 PM, said:

Plus : also simply disallow mechs to fire Gauss Rifle while in air would prevent poptart problems greatly. After all Gauss Rifle is supposed to have a huge recoil and Mechs usually cannot put Gauss Rfiles on their arms due to recoil from lore. The fact that Mechs can pinpoint accurately fire Gauss Rifle in-air is non-sensual from both lore perspective and real science.

The super recoil thing was only for Heavy Gauss specifically.

[The Lighthouse]

FupDup, on 08 November 2017 - 08:42 PM, said:

PGI actually tried that before. It just made Gauss go unused because it had absolutely garbage damage output and also waiting an eternity to reload is even more "unfun" than a charge-up mechanic will ever be.


The super recoil thing was only for Heavy Gauss specifically.

Then you tweak the number so that Gauss won't be completely utter garbage yet it won't get too much advantage compared to other ballistics. Just like Ghost Heat, Charging is yet another mechanics that does not solve the problem while making the game even more complicated. Especially when we have far more easier and proven solutions from past games.

I don't know how waiting is suddenly "unfun" these days. All of those super duper alpha-strike Clan laserbombs have to wait quite a while for the heat to die down, yet people are quite enjoying this waiting build.

And from novels, the recoil of Gauss Rifle is often described as quite excessive while power-draining much, not just Heavy Gauss.

[FupDup]

The Lighthouse, on 08 November 2017 - 08:52 PM, said:

Then you tweak the number so that Gauss won't be completely utter garbage yet it won't get too much advantage compared to other ballistics. Just like Ghost Heat, Charging is yet another mechanics that does not solve the problem while making the game even more complicated. Especially when we have far more easier and proven solutions from past games.

I don't know how waiting is suddenly "unfun" these days. All of those super duper alpha-strike Clan laserbombs have to wait quite a while for the heat to die down, yet people are quite enjoying this waiting build.

The charge-up mechanism is not "complicated." All it does is make the weapon feel mechanically different from the rest of the point-and-click guns (rather than being an Extended-Range AC/15) and increasing the skill floor a bit.

Those laser vomit builds aren't the same because they have a gigaspike alpha to make up for the wait time and you can just choose to mount fewer lasers and more DHS if you want to fire more frequently.

The Lighthouse, on 08 November 2017 - 08:52 PM, said:

And from novels, the recoil of Gauss Rifle is often described as quite excessive while power-draining much, not just Heavy Gauss.

I was referring to the TT game rules where Heavy Gauss is not allowed to be mounted in a mech's arm regardless of critical slot size.

Wasn't that power drain thing from only a single novel though, featuring Vlad Ward's impossible to construct custom Executioner with twin Gauss Rifles and three Large Lasers (not even specified as being Clan lasers)?

Edited by FupDup, 08 November 2017 - 09:04 PM.

[Shifty McSwift]

The Lighthouse, on 08 November 2017 - 08:52 PM, said:

Charging is yet another mechanics that does not solve the problem

I guess you need to define what the problem is to you, as many people considered the snap fire nature of gauss simply too strong versus lighter mechs and for headshotting. So that "problem" was totally "fixed" by the charge timer.

[The Lighthouse]

FupDup, on 08 November 2017 - 09:01 PM, said:

The charge-up mechanism is not "complicated." All it does is make the weapon feel mechanically different from the rest of the point-and-click guns (rather than being an Extended-Range AC/15) and increasing the skill floor a bit.

Those laser vomit builds aren't the same because they have a gigaspike alpha to make up for the wait time and you can just choose to mount fewer lasers and more DHS if you want to fire more frequently.

Indeed, so people simply moved to PPCs and We had some period of PPCs + Gauss combos for a while. I guess rest of comment is fair.

Quote

I was referring to the TT game rules where Heavy Gauss is not allowed to be mounted in a mech's arm regardless of critical slot size.

Wasn't that power drain thing from only a single novel though, featuring Vlad Ward's impossible to construct custom Executioner with twin Gauss Rifles and three Large Lasers (not even specified as being Clan lasers)?

Yes that's correct that mech cannot arm HG on its arms. Now my memory is failing me, but I remember there's one Dire Wolf that modified to fire four Gauss Rifles and that stressed the mech (not remember whether it was either physical recoil or energy drain) greatly. And from that your example at least disallowing mechs to fire Gauss Rifle definitely has supports from lore perspective.

Shifty McSwift, on 08 November 2017 - 09:02 PM, said:

I guess you need to define what the problem is to you, as many people considered the snap fire nature of gauss simply too strong versus lighter mechs and for headshotting. So that "problem" was totally "fixed" by the charge timer.

You gotta be kidding about 'totally'. As an light pilot I did get evaporated by Gauss + PPC combo all time until PGI decided to use its worst tool to balance the game.

Gauss charge mechanics might had solved the 'problem' at that time when K2 variant was released, but it did nothing about Clan's Gauss + laser combo or Gauss + PPC combo. Even worse, Gauss + PPC combo was possible by a mech that has decent jumpjet capability.

So once again instead of just nerfing the poptart nature of Gauss Rifle, PGI simply destroyed entire Gauss + PPC combo. Especially after Gauss + PPC ghost heat implementation, I think it's time to remove the Gauss charging mechanics. Very last thing this game needs is yet another barrier to new players when entire game is basically hostile to anyone who has no prior knowledge of Battletech and Mech Warrior games.

Removing charging mechanics will also satisfy lore people.... if that's what you want.

Edited by The Lighthouse, 08 November 2017 - 09:24 PM.

[Shifty McSwift]

The Lighthouse, on 08 November 2017 - 09:23 PM, said:

Removing charging mechanics will also satisfy lore people.... if that's what you want.

I am not actually fussed by such an endeavour, when it comes to lore and realism, I say balance and gameplay are much higher in the priority list. If some lore values suck comparatively to others or if a realistic version of a gun is just OP, then F those notions. A semblance of logic is important, so I don't mean that we should be firing rainbow guns out of sausage arms or anything, but lore and realism are a burden to much faster paced gameplay really, of course I feel differently about other games and of course others feel differently here, but that's my 2c.

The Lighthouse, on 08 November 2017 - 09:23 PM, said:

You gotta be kidding about 'totally'. As an light pilot I did get evaporated by Gauss + PPC combo all time until PGI decided to use its worst tool to balance the game.

The fact you still get killed by it doesn't defeat the point of no snap firing, it is still a weapon capable of killing things, it just CANNOT snapfire instantly anymore, which means lights have a pretty decent chance of dodging a lot of weapons (with the exception of single slug AC and LBX, but they travel much slower in general and/or have spread). And it means that you cannot fire them in reaction to the same effect, of course people "master" getting around it as much as possible with skill, but they can never get around it to the point where it can be snap fired like SRM or LBX.

[Y E O N N E]

Defender Rococo Rockfowl, on 08 November 2017 - 08:02 PM, said:

Which weapons need a charge? I'm (genuinely) curious

Historically? Drawing a bow of any type is a charge. You are transferring energy from your muscles into the arms of the bow.

Currently? Technically, chambering the next round is also charging, because you are moving the energy out of the storage (magazine) and into a position to be used (chambered). The lever you pull to load the next round into the chamber is even called the charging lever in some countries. All of the railgun prototypes require a bank of capacitors to be juiced, usually for several minutes, before they can fire.

So, you might have the first shot already charged and ready to go, but you get to wait for it for every subsequent shot, and you have to tell it to do this every time either by pulling the string or lever yourself or entering a command into your fire control system to fire again. You clicking your mouse for the Gauss in MWO is you telling your 'Mech's FCS that you want it to fire again. The only unrealistic part is that you can't hold the charge in place.

[Defender Rococo Rockfowl]

Yeonne Greene, on 08 November 2017 - 09:32 PM, said:

Historically? Drawing a bow of any type is a charge. You are transferring energy from your muscles into the arms of the bow.

Currently? Technically, chambering the next round is also charging, because you are moving the energy out of the storage (magazine) and into a position to be used (chambered). The lever you pull to load the next round into the chamber is even called the charging lever in some countries. All of the railgun prototypes require a bank of capacitors to be juiced, usually for several minutes, before they can fire.

So, you might have the first shot already charged and ready to go, but you get to wait for it for every subsequent shot, and you have to tell it to do this every time either by pulling the string or lever yourself or entering a command into your fire control system to fire again. You clicking your mouse for the Gauss in MWO is you telling your 'Mech's FCS that you want it to fire again. The only unrealistic part is that you can't hold the charge in place.

Good reply

For the re-chambering of rounds into the weapon I would say this is counts as 'reload time' (that you MWO-ites like to call "weapon cool down") as opposed to a charge up time which is separate from reloading.

Charge up adds nothing good to mwo. It's just pooop

[Y E O N N E]

Defender Rococo Rockfowl, on 08 November 2017 - 09:54 PM, said:

Good reply

For the re-chambering of rounds into the weapon I would say this is counts as 'reload time' (that you MWO-ites like to call "weapon cool down") as opposed to a charge up time which is separate from reloading.

Then what do you call replacing or refilling the magazine?

Quote

Charge up adds nothing good to mwo. It's just pooop

It adds variety. I have literally every other weapon for point-and-click instant gratification.

[Defender Rococo Rockfowl]

Yeonne Greene, on 08 November 2017 - 10:28 PM, said:

Then what do you call replacing or refilling the magazine?

Ok good point That's reloading the magazine.
On ships the 5" gun magazine is so large it never gets reloaded. In that regard it's similar to a semi-automatic rifle but doesn't fire at that rate.
On tanks I don't know but (assumption) it's reloaded after every shot cause a tank's "magazine" is only one round (if there are any Army vets here that were mechanized infantry mechanics, please pipe in!).

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It adds variety. I have literally every other weapon for point-and-click instant gratification.

I'd rather have mwo be more Tank Sim than arcade shoot em up but I am in the largest minority of gamers on the planet so I digress.