31 replies to this topic

[Tarl Cabot]

Wolfways, on 19 November 2017 - 11:24 PM, said:

Actually no.
With IS mechs you can upgrade the equipment and use whatever you like. Engines, structure, armour, weapons, can be swapped with anything you like.
With clan mechs you're stuck with whatever the mech comes with and you mostly are forced to remove some weapons or replace them with smaller ones. Also, having an Endo structure gives you more free weight to play with than Ferro armour, and some clan mechs come with Ferro and there's nothing you can do about it.

That is only partially correct. IS and CLAN battlemechs can use whatever they like of their respective tech. Clan omnimechs have fixed high end equipment that can not be removed/replaced.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 20 November 2017 - 07:38 AM.

[Wolfways]

Tarl Cabot, on 20 November 2017 - 07:37 AM, said:

That is only partially correct. IS and CLAN battlemechs can use whatever they like of their respective tech. Clan omnimechs have fixed high end equipment that can not be removed/replaced.

Yes, I keep forgetting to say omnimechs instead of clan mechs. My bad

[FallenShaw]

Alot of people argue clans and is in the end cost the same, but thats a lie. Fact is every clan user pieces omi pods together. So yeah a wolf hound fully upgraded is similar to that 1 artic cheeta. However, when someone is building a clan... they have to buy 2 or 3 clan mechs, So IS mech's are 1 3rd the price of clans. What everyone else is telling you is the same bs story pgi told them. The truth about clan mech's is they want you to spend MC instead of grinding it out.

[Tesunie]

FallenShaw, on 03 December 2017 - 10:30 AM, said:

Alot of people argue clans and is in the end cost the same, but thats a lie. Fact is every clan user pieces omi pods together. So yeah a wolf hound fully upgraded is similar to that 1 artic cheeta. However, when someone is building a clan... they have to buy 2 or 3 clan mechs, So IS mech's are 1 3rd the price of clans. What everyone else is telling you is the same bs story pgi told them. The truth about clan mech's is they want you to spend MC instead of grinding it out.

When they refer to clan mechs costing the same as IS mechs in the end, we aren't talking about specific builds. What we mostly refer to are all the upgrades. (And we refer to Omnis more than their battlemechs.) For example, a Clan mech already typically comes with all the upgrades it can typically take, where as almost every IS mech needs DHS, typically almost always Endo, a larger engine (typically at least a light engine if not an XL engine even), and sometimes an armor upgrade. All this when added in typically cost the about the same as a single Omnimech does.

I do have to ask... why do you say that "However, when someone is building a clan... they have to buy 2 or 3 clan mechs"? That... isn't true if I read that right... Switching Omnipods on an Omnimech doesn't normally cost all that much. You don't have to purchase a whole new mech just to strip the Omnipods off it...Or did I misread what you intended to write?

[The Basilisk]

FallenShaw, on 03 December 2017 - 10:30 AM, said:

Alot of people argue clans and is in the end cost the same, but thats a lie. Fact is every clan user pieces omi pods together. So yeah a wolf hound fully upgraded is similar to that 1 artic cheeta. However, when someone is building a clan... they have to buy 2 or 3 clan mechs, So IS mech's are 1 3rd the price of clans. What everyone else is telling you is the same bs story pgi told them. The truth about clan mech's is they want you to spend MC instead of grinding it out.

Sorry, little blue one, the guys and girls that posted here play that game for avery long time.
If you find a Clan mech 3 times as expensive as a comparable, fully upgraded IS you either need to work on your math skills or you somehow made some serious errors.

Take an WLF-1 and upgrade it with double heatsinks, 300 XL-Engine and endosteel and you are at 9.420.748 C-bills...no weapons or heatsinks included.
Buy an arctic cheeta and add the C-Variants arms. Now you got a mech with ECM and modules for 6 Energy hardpoints, no weapons or heatsinks included: 7.779.864 C-bills.

To be more fair take the same engine in the wlf as in the cheeta..still at 8.440.665 C-bills...

Shall I continue ?

Edited by The Basilisk, 03 December 2017 - 10:50 AM.

[Tesunie]

The Basilisk, on 03 December 2017 - 10:49 AM, said:

To be more fair take the same engine in the wlf as in the cheeta..still at 8.440.665 C-bills...

To be even more fair... Take the same engine rating as the Cheetah, and make it a Light engine (same amount of survival chance). But yeah... Still... It's gonna be expensive still..

[Roland09]

Lies, lies, lies, the both of you. Your facts are based on alternative math.

[Koniving]

Actually PGI has a record of not telling us ****.
At all.
About most things.

Examples of things not told to us:

Spoiler

There's any hidden mechanics in the game that we had to discover ourselves. We're report bugs that later PGI would say were actually features that they hadn't got to tell us about yet, like suddenly exploding while riding at 80% heat... because our heat is causing damage to our equipment... and then getting slapped with a million cbill repair bill afterwards, we'd pitch it as a bug. That was a feature to help keep us from abusing high heat builds... except high heat mechs rarely suffered the issue, just low heat mechs that couldn't afford the tonnage in heatsinks to keep cold... and PGI removed it. Then we discovered the 101% heat you explode thing. So PGI changed that, and now we can fire 14 ER PPCs at the same time and survive. Or at least we could UP until last year... and in fact it did less to us than firing 7 ER PPCs at once -- which would instantly kill you. Yet 11 or more ER PPCs you can survive... and sit for up to 3 minutes before you explode; or squeeze off another 14 ER PPCs. Of if you weren't firing them all at once, you could churn out 36 PPCs in rapid succession before you die.

But hit 125% heat exactly and you die instantaneously no matter what. If you make a jump to 130% heat you're safe... unless you to sink to 125% heat while overrided, then you die instantly anyway.

PGI didn't tell us about actuator damage throwing aim off, so when we complained about weapons not firing at the reticles, they removed it. They have never, ever, EVER... explained how the economy works and only loosely explained their pricing system which is not even remotely based on lore... what we do know is that almost every single Clan mech is many millions of cbills cheaper than they are in lore. Example, Dire Wolf is supposed to be 32 million. It's about 17 million. Atlas K however is supposed to be 26 million, it's almost 13.7 million. Any mech that comes with an XL engine is only paying half price for that XL engine compared to having to buy the engine separately in the only price breakdown ever had. An Atlas D can be easily made into an Atlas D-DC but the mech without the parts plus the parts separate is on average 1.3x the price of just getting mech you intend to copy. Unless it has double heatsinks, XL engine, etc., in that case you ultimately end up paying 1.6 to 1.9 times the price to convert a similar mech into another variant.

On the topic of cheaper **** if it's already there versus getting it separate:

Spoiler

Proof in the reduced price of XL engines and double heatsinks. if they come with a mech is easy to find. Compare a Kintaro with single heatsinks to one with double heatsinks and the price difference before even splitting the difference in other equipment is less than 300,000 cbills more expensive instead of 1 million 500k cbills.

Griffin, Wolverine and Shadowhawk have many examples where a mech that comes with more armor, double heatsinks and an XL engine at 275 and remember that a 275 XL costs 4,491,667, but the price difference before finding the difference in parts prices isn't even 3 million cbills more, and in fact the actual difference in prices if the weapons are taken out of the factor is that an XL engine upgrade and double heatsinks only cost barely more than 2.1 million. Where separately if you were to upgrade a mech to that it'd cost 1.5 million plus the actual DHS for the heatsinks alone and then the 4,491,667 to get the engine so... Get a variant that only costs 2.1 million more than the cheap variant costs?, or recreate that more expensive variant with that other super cheap variant for 5,991,667 million cbills more than the cheap one cost at 3,891,667 extra wasted expense for nothing?




Crabs make a perfect example of this as there's a variant with with an XL 250 and double heatsinks and identical hardpoints. So take a Crab 27SL... compare to a Crab 27. Now take a Crab 27 and turn it into a Crab 27SL.
The cost comes out to 10,624,066
So if you add the original starting equipment from the Crab 27 to the Crab 27SL, you should then have a balanced 1:1 ratio right? Nope. The Crab27SL doesn't jump from 7,144,233 to 10,624,066. It jumps to 13,080,850... Meaning to make a Crab 27 into a Crab 27 SL, you spend 10,624,066... A Crab 27 SL to a Crab 27 should cost the same, but it costs 13,080,850...

Proving (and thus meaning) you spend more money making upgrades than you do simply buying the stuff with the upgrades already in it. And that in fact, since you have to buy the stuff separately for most IS mechs, the IS mechs are in the long run far more expensive than Clan mechs.

We've figured this out MANY, many years ago. PGI didn't tell us ****. It's just a fact of life. You spend MORE if you have to upgrade than if it comes with the goodies. It actually works out to far less than half off for the engine and double heatsink upgrade to be built in than to go and get it.

Since almost all Clan mechs come with those upgrades, they are almost universally cheaper similar IS mechs being upgraded to compete in terms of engine and heatsinks.

I should know, too, because beyond 5 years playing I currently hold 277 mechs, this isn't counting ones I sold, rebought, etc.

I'm also crazy about math as my wife complains about how crazy I am since she almost always sees me with a calculator open.

Edited by Koniving, 04 December 2017 - 09:05 AM.

[mogs01gt]

FallenShaw, on 03 December 2017 - 10:30 AM, said:

Alot of people argue clans and is in the end cost the same, but thats a lie. Fact is every clan user pieces omi pods together. So yeah a wolf hound fully upgraded is similar to that 1 artic cheeta. However, when someone is building a clan... they have to buy 2 or 3 clan mechs, So IS mech's are 1 3rd the price of clans. What everyone else is telling you is the same bs story pgi told them. The truth about clan mech's is they want you to spend MC instead of grinding it out.

That is factually wrong. Its obvious you do not play the game.

[Rogue Jedi]

Roland09, on 03 December 2017 - 10:55 AM, said:

Lies, lies, lies, the both of you. Your facts are based on alternative math.

sorry there have been more than 2 people posting in this thread, which 2 do you accuse of lying?
I assume this guy is one of them, but he could just be misinformed

FallenShaw, on 03 December 2017 - 10:30 AM, said:

Alot of people argue clans and is in the end cost the same, but thats a lie.

no it is not, there are a few cases where it may prove inacurate, but at least 3 times in 4 Clan and IS Mechs will end up costing about the same, and sometimes the Clan Mech will work out cheeper

Quote

Fact is every clan user pieces omi pods together.

no, there are several Clan Battlemechs which cannot use Omnipods
Clan Battlemechs include Jenner IIC, Hunchback IIC, Orion IIC, Marauder IIC, Highlander IIC, Kodiak, Supernova and half the varients of Arctic Wolf

Quote

So yeah a wolf hound fully upgraded is similar to that 1 artic cheeta. However, when someone is building a clan... they have to buy 2 or 3 clan mechs,

why do you have to buy 2-3 Clan Mechs? assuming you mean Clan Omnimechs, instead just buy the omnipods, the only times you have to buy a Mech for the pods are if it is not yet available for Cbills

Quote

So IS mech's are 1 3rd the price of clans.

if you mean initial purchase cost then yes but if you mean total cost of ownership no, sorry. as I clearly laid out above you are mistaken on every other point you try to make.

Quote

What everyone else is telling you is the same bs story pgi told them. The truth about clan mech's is they want you to spend MC instead of grinding it out.

PGI would be quite happy if you purchase MC to buy the chassis or convert XP but there is no more incentive to do that with Clan Mechs than with IS Mechs

you are of course welcome to believe whatever you want but Clan Mechs rarely cost much more than comparable IS Mechs

[Feezou]

Wow, this thread just blew up.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

Koniving, on 03 December 2017 - 12:10 PM, said:

Proof in the reduced price of XL engines and double heatsinks. if they come with a mech is easy to find. Compare a Kintaro with single heatsinks to one with double heatsinks and the price difference before even splitting the difference in other equipment is less than 300,000 cbills more expensive instead of 1 million 500k cbills.

Where separately if you were to upgrade a mech to that it'd cost 1.5 million plus the actual DHS for the heatsinks alone and then the 4,491,667 to get the engine so... Get a variant that only costs 2.1 million more than the cheap variant costs?, or recreate that more expensive variant with that other super cheap variant for 5,991,667 million cbills more than the cheap one cost at 3,891,667 extra wasted expense for nothing?

Yes there are even more clear examples in heavies, where several models some exists with different upgredes. The price of mechs is based on parts and tons, upgrades have no value expect in case of heatsinks as double heatsinks are more expensive. I mean the equipment itself, not the "ugprade", as in a mech can have zero heatsinks, so a mech with zero would have same price independent of whether it has zero doubles or zero singles.


Or worse offenders are some assults I think which can have ferro instead of endo when you buy them. Most IS assults simply have no chance to take both, so in order to optimize them, you need to switch both, dumping a rather heavy pile of cbills, or accept that your mech has about 1-2 tons of extra weight for no other reason but the fact that you can't warrant the use of so much cbills to sqeeze it out.


I think the biggest difference between Clan and IS mechs, is "value". Prices can be the same, but omnimechs in particular provide the biggest value.