53 replies to this topic

[davoodoo]

Khobai, on 10 November 2017 - 10:06 AM, said:

its not a "free buff" its giving up the opportunity cost of not having extra tonnage from using endo in exchange for a structure buff from standard structure. Thats a choice, not a free buff.

That mech wasnt gonna use endo regardless if he got extra structure or not, so it doesnt lose anything by not taking endo.
Therefore its free buff.

Endo is not default structure that is taken by everything...

Edited by davoodoo, 10 November 2017 - 10:51 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Nema Nabojiv, on 10 November 2017 - 10:29 AM, said:

If you buff some class that automatically means the other classes will become less viable because that's the nature of competitive game. Do we really need mediums to be less viable than they are now? I personally dont think so.

not every medium uses endo, think about clans with fixed equipment, or maybe upcming IS Omnis with the same issue.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Lily from animove, on 10 November 2017 - 10:54 AM, said:

not every medium uses endo, think about clans with fixed equipment, or maybe upcming IS Omnis with the same issue.

Only Nova and only because you dont have a choice?

However. I dont take endo on my atlas and battlemaster, and I do take endo on my marauder for example. More structure HP from standard structure means that battlemasters becomes tankier, and in comparisson marauders become less tankier.
While battlemasters and stalkers already benefiting from standard structure by having more free slots for heatsinks. And that is a free buff right there. To only some chassis that already perform decently.

[Khobai]

Quote

While battlemasters and stalkers already benefiting from standard structure by having more free slots for heatsinks. And that is a free buff right there. To only some chassis that already perform decently.

assault mechs getting tankier?

sounds like its working as intended

that is the whole point, to make assault mechs tankier

[davoodoo]

Lily from animove, on 10 November 2017 - 10:54 AM, said:

not every medium uses endo, think about clans with fixed equipment, or maybe upcming IS Omnis with the same issue.

Mediums usualy arent constricted(or can circumvent it rather freely) by ghost heat in amount of firepower they can bring so getting heavier weaponry benefits them therefore weight savings will always be prefered for them.

Problem starts with heavies which hit the wall that is ghost heat and start boating light energy like mediums at which point theyll indeed ditch endo in favor of more dhs because tonnage isnt as important as crits.
That ofc goes out of the window when you arent laserboat so you again pack heavier weapons and tonnage is again worth more than crits, ergo every single ballistic boat packs endo.

Cause and effect at its finest.

Khobai, on 10 November 2017 - 11:20 AM, said:

assault mechs getting tankier?

sounds like its working as intended

that is the whole point, to make assault mechs tankier

to make some assaults tankier
mauler will run endo, cyclops will run endo, kgc will run endo, nightstar will run endo.

You only made tankier the ones that alredy used standard, so the laserboats

Edited by davoodoo, 10 November 2017 - 11:27 AM.

[LordNothing]

i think i would rather have buffed ferro and additional armors. reflective armor on the is side would mean clan can keep their superior lasers and is would still have a fighting chance.

[davoodoo]

LordNothing, on 10 November 2017 - 11:23 AM, said:

i think i would rather have buffed ferro and additional armors. reflective armor on the is side would mean clan can keep their superior lasers and is would still have a fighting chance.

That would also be fine though there should be some drawback to it as we neither have physical attacks nor through armor crits ingame.

[Nema Nabojiv]

LordNothing, on 10 November 2017 - 11:23 AM, said:

i think i would rather have buffed ferro and additional armors. reflective armor on the is side would mean clan can keep their superior lasers and is would still have a fighting chance.

Think it will shift meta more to ballistic side, but it will be interesting at least.

[Khobai]

Quote

If you buff some class that automatically means the other classes will become less viable because that's the nature of competitive game. Do we really need mediums to be less viable than they are now? I personally dont think so.

which is why I said we need weight class specific skill trees so each weight class can be balanced independently of the others

[davoodoo]

Nema Nabojiv, on 10 November 2017 - 11:32 AM, said:

Think it will shift meta more to ballistic side, but it will be interesting at least.

To which answer will be reactive armors which were available by 3063 to is.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Khobai, on 10 November 2017 - 11:20 AM, said:

that is the whole point, to make assault mechs tankier

Why? Assaults are sufficiently tanky as of now.

To make all mechs tankier and increase TTK might be a good thing, or at least everyone think it might be a good thing. Though the more I play the more I think that increasing overall hp back in the beginning has greatly contributed to stomp meta we have now. Can't carry 1v3 when everyone's so fat.

[FupDup]

Adding Composite Structure would be stupid when Endo-Composite does the same thing for no durability penalty (TT wise at least). Trying to differentiate them isn't worth the hassle, just do EC only.

davoodoo, on 10 November 2017 - 11:33 AM, said:

To which answer will be reactive armors which were available by 3063 to is.

Reactive armor works against missiles and artillery, not ballistics. MW4 lied to you.

What you want is Ballistic-Reinforced Armor, but that doesn't come around until 3131 (I really hate limited tech timelines).

[Khobai]

Quote

Why? Assaults are sufficiently tanky as of now.

lol no theyre really not

when PGI slashed their agility down to nothing they took away their ability to torso twist to distribute damage evenly, assault survivability went down the toilet.

heavies are much more survivable than most assaults now. assault scaling and hitboxes are just too damn big fo the extremely minor bonus to armor/structure they get.

Edited by Khobai, 10 November 2017 - 11:03 PM.

[YueFei]

Nema Nabojiv, on 10 November 2017 - 11:39 AM, said:

Why? Assaults are sufficiently tanky as of now.

To make all mechs tankier and increase TTK might be a good thing, or at least everyone think it might be a good thing. Though the more I play the more I think that increasing overall hp back in the beginning has greatly contributed to stomp meta we have now. Can't carry 1v3 when everyone's so fat.

Atlas used to be able to complete a 90 degree rotation of the torso using leg turning + torso twist in about 290 milliseconds, assuming a STD325 engine with the Elite Skills unlocked (pre-Skill-Tree). This starts to eat significantly into a human shooter's reaction time. Average reaction time to visual stimulus is 250 milliseconds. Even among the best players with the fastest reflexes, at 150 milliseconds to simple visual stimulus, that still means the Atlas is bladed >45 degrees and presenting a slimmer profile, and additionally the Atlas will have laterally shifted due to the leg turn, potentially causing a shot to slip off to an adjacent hitbox instead of the intended one.

Nowadays it takes even the more nimble Atlas variant, the AS7-K, 735 milliseconds to complete a 90 degree torso rotation. That's a significant difference, and I think it is more significant than merely being over double the previous required time to rotate, because previously a significant chunk of the time is taken merely by human reflexes, whereas at 735 milliseconds, even for a potato like me with 300ms reflex time, the Atlas will only have rotated by 40 degrees by the time I realize and shoot at it. Now sure, there's a good chance that since I'm aiming with a steering wheel, I'll miss hitting the Atlas where I want to... but I don't think the game should be balanced around idiots like me, but instead balanced so that Mechs are viable in the hands of the best pilots going up against the best pilots.

Atlas agility needs to go up.

[davoodoo]

Uhm nowadays atlas twist speed is 34 degrees/s
How did you cut twist speed 3 times to arrive at 0.73s?

Hell even before engine desync its base twist speed was 37 degrees/s with 325 engine and 40 degrees/s with 350

Edited by davoodoo, 11 November 2017 - 02:12 AM.

[YueFei]

davoodoo, on 11 November 2017 - 02:07 AM, said:

Uhm nowadays atlas twist speed is 34 degrees/s
How did you cut twist speed 3 times??

Sorry, should have clarified that I meant that is with full investment in Agility Skill Tree for Anchor Turn and Twist Speed.

Assuming full investment there, then the AS7-K leg turn speed is 43.69 deg/sec. Torso twist speed is 78.75 deg/sec.

If you don't invest into agility at all, then leg turn rate is 34.95 deg/sec, twist speed is 63 deg/sec. Takes 918 milliseconds to swivel 90 degrees.

Contrast this with the old Elite Skills, which pretty much everybody got, and the Atlas could snap 90 degrees in 290 milliseconds.

Edited by YueFei, 11 November 2017 - 02:12 AM.

[davoodoo]

Sure but nowadays ppl ditched it in favor of firepower and armor.

If you do fully invest into agility then engine desync wasnt that bad of a nerf, skill tree hit it way more.

Edited by davoodoo, 11 November 2017 - 02:16 AM.

[Nema Nabojiv]

I still want all skill nodes to be unlockable. With all damage amp nodes removed, like cooldown and airstrikes. Everyone will win.

[Sjorpha]

Khobai, on 10 November 2017 - 10:06 AM, said:

yes i understand that. but you cant really change the crit slots on IS ferro or endo without messing up stock builds.

Im not saying IS mechs shouldnt be compensated for their ferro/endo taking up more crit slots. Its just rather than screwing up stockbuilds I think quirks and making ISDHS better than CDHS is a better approach. Like make ISDHS 1.8-2.0 instead of 1.5

I also think hand actuators should be removable on IS mechs. theyre pointless and just waste crit slots for no reason. They might need to rework some variants as a result of that, but I think freeing up wasted crit slots is more beneficial in the long run.

Well, first of all reducing the crits on endo/ferro would not break any stock builds, the only thing that would happen is that those stock builds would have more empty crits. Most stock builds already have empty crits so I don't really see what the problem would be there.

But it doesn't really matter to me since I don't want to reduce the crits on IS endo/ferro at all, my position is that crits and tonnage values should always be left alone. The only exception I would make is IS LB cannons which should all follow the LBX formula with 1 less ton 1 less crit.

I want it to be WORTH those 14 crits in a comparison with the clan upgrades. Simply put, if we had mixtech on all mechs taking the IS upgrades should generally be as attractive as taking the clan versions (better on some mechs, worse on some mechs), and this should be true for all equipment in the game.

How to make it worth it is an open question, I can see lots of options here. I like the idea of making the upgrades have significant downsides to them, such as increased vulnerability to critical hits or the like, and these downsides would be the argument for sometimes sticking to standard structure/armour. The clan versions would simply have stronger downsides since they don't pay as much in the crit department.

Edited by Sjorpha, 11 November 2017 - 07:11 AM.

[D34DMetal]

TLDR: what if we just buff standard over endosteel to include some increases to structure durability?