53 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

Edit: Fixed the math equation.

Brain Cancer, on 10 November 2017 - 09:12 AM, said:

Honestly, having a reduced crit chance for standard structure wouldn't be a bad change (and a slightly increased chance for endosteel). Take a baseline and:

Reinforced: -15% crit/crit damage
Standard: -5% crit/crit damage
Endosteel: +5% crit/crit damage
(Endo-composite): +10% crit/crit damage)
Composite: +15% crit/crit damage

The numbers... need work as you are probably missing some important information about the game's mechanics. However the premise has some interesting promise; probably more than you realize.

In MWO, crits don't just damage equipment, they also add bonus damage to structure. For example the AC/20 does 20 damage, right? Wrong.

It does 20 damage to armor.
It does between 20 and 26 damage to structure. True fact.
That means twin AC/20s does 40 to 52 damage to structure.
That means every AC/5 and UAC/5 does between 5 and 7.25 damage per shot (or volley) against the structure.
That's just structure damage, then there's the fact that they are doing 1 to 3x damage against equipment, too and sometimes shots will take out up to 3 pieces of equipment. 4 or more if the crit damage carries to other equipment (this is not confirmed yet).

And this is true of all weapon types.

Worth noting:
LBX 2 through 20 has an interesting perk to it.
A single LBX 20 does between 20 to a Maximum Possible 38 damage per blast thanks to this same crit system and the fact that they do double crit damage (15% of {2 per pellet * 1 to 3 crits} = bonus structure damage). This is true of BOTH sides.

Now, your suggested +15% crits to Composite Structure which already has half structure is basically a suicide option. That's increasing the chances of already 50% guaranteed bonus damage (as in it's half guaranteed) which is even higher with targeting computers and some firepower options increase crit chances even further. Now consider that you have half your structure health on top of that... Nobody would ever want to use it.

Buuut...

It is because of this very problem that, say, a tweak to STD structure to decrease crit chances by 10% to 20% would make it almost guaranteed to be more survivable than Endo Steel.
Though this relies entirely on the risk of all the dice rolls that play out throughout combat.

You could alternatively cut out the middle man by removing "bonus damage on crits" against STD structure, so while an AC/20 does 20 to 26 damage to Endo, it does 20 damage flat to STD structure.
OR
by simply cutting bonus damage on crits in half against STD structure. (so 7.5% of crit damage as bonus structure damage instead of 15% of crit damage as bonus structure damage). That means 20-26 damage from an AC/20 to Endo, but only 20-23 damage against STD structure. (For the LBX-20 that's 20 to 38 against Endo and 20 to 29 damage against STD).

Any of these three options would make standard structure significantly more attractive without actually increasing their total health, as well as make mechs with locked STD structure quite a bit more viable without having to resort to screwy structure quirks.

Edited by Koniving, 11 November 2017 - 08:18 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

DeadMetal89, on 11 November 2017 - 07:39 AM, said:

TLDR: what if we just buff standard over endosteel to include some increases to structure durability?

Reduced crit chance please! Makes Endo / STD a choice of tonnage vs slots & equipment durability. Has the added bonus of making all those structure quirks more valuable.

Makes the following OmniMechs more durable;
Nova
Mad Dog
Hellbringer
Summoner
Gargoyle
Executioner
Dire Wolf

Nova & Hellbringer (arguably Mad Dog & Summoner) don't really need the help, but go on

[Khobai]

Quote

In MWO, crits don't just damage equipment, they also add bonus damage to structure. For example the AC/20 does 20 damage, right? Wrong.

they need to remove bonus internal structure damage on crits

because it defeats the purpose of crits when components die faster than the equipment inside those components.

the whole point of crits is destroying equipment, not components.

instead of having bonus internal structure damage on crits, they should just give weapons like LBX and machineguns a flat bonus against internal structure thats always passively applied and completely independent of getting crits.

Edited by Khobai, 11 November 2017 - 09:07 AM.

[Brain Cancer]

FupDup, on 10 November 2017 - 10:42 PM, said:

Adding Composite Structure would be stupid when Endo-Composite does the same thing for no durability penalty (TT wise at least). Trying to differentiate them isn't worth the hassle, just do EC only.

Endocomp is 75% the weight of standard. Composite is 50%. Endocomp is 7 slots (4 Clan), Composite 0 critical slots but half the structure points.

[YueFei]

davoodoo, on 11 November 2017 - 02:14 AM, said:

Sure but nowadays ppl ditched it in favor of firepower and armor.

If you do fully invest into agility then engine desync wasnt that bad of a nerf, skill tree hit it way more.

No, it's not really about leg turn rate, but torso twist rate. The Atlas, with STD325, used to be able to twist at a rate of 190 deg/sec, and that's without the old Elite Skill Values. If you add the Elite Skill Values on top of that, the Atlas with STD325 was twisting at a rate of 266 deg/sec.

Compare that with now, where even if you fully invest into the Agility Skill Tree, the Atlas only twists at a rate of 78.75 deg/sec.

That's a brutal nerf...

Leg turn rates weren't significantly changed, but the torso twist rates were.

I thought I felt something odd when I first came back into the game after 1 year of break. The Hunchback seemed to twist so much slower than before. I thought it was just my imagination, but no, it's a massive change.

[Koniving]

You know, that wouldn't be so bad...
But firing rate on...literally everything... has increased significantly thanks to the Skill tree. It is possible to get an AC/20 that dishes out an extra 20 damage every 2.25 seconds as opposed to the old 3.8 seconds after skill tree or 2.8 with a hefty quirk into it.

Slap that onto a single LBX-20 for either side, and you're ranging from 20 to a maximum potential of 38 damage against structure every 2.25 seconds.

Increases in everything... and not enough mobility. Don't get me wrong the mobility feels right to me. But with the weapons delivering full damage + bonus damage through 15% of crits added as additional structure damage.. such insane firing rates...

It all comes together to make it so that a lot of mechs are just no longer realistically viable.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Koniving, on 11 November 2017 - 07:55 AM, said:

It is because of this very problem that, say, a tweak to STD structure to decrease crit chances by 10% to 20% would make it almost guaranteed to be more survivable than Endo Steel.
Though this relies entirely on the risk of all the dice rolls that play out throughout combat.

You could alternatively cut out the middle man by removing "bonus damage on crits" against STD structure, so while an AC/20 does 20 to 26 damage to Endo, it does 20 damage flat to STD structure.
OR
by simply cutting bonus damage on crits in half against STD structure. (so 7.5% of crit damage as bonus structure damage instead of 15% of crit damage as bonus structure damage). That means 20-26 damage from an AC/20 to Endo, but only 20-23 damage against STD structure. (For the LBX-20 that's 20 to 38 against Endo and 20 to 29 damage against STD).

Any of these three options would make standard structure significantly more attractive without actually increasing their total health, as well as make mechs with locked STD structure quite a bit more viable without having to resort to screwy structure quirks.

That is probably the most sensible buff out of all that's been suggested.

[davoodoo]

YueFei, on 11 November 2017 - 11:16 AM, said:

No, it's not really about leg turn rate, but torso twist rate. The Atlas, with STD325, used to be able to twist at a rate of 190 deg/sec, and that's without the old Elite Skill Values. If you add the Elite Skill Values on top of that, the Atlas with STD325 was twisting at a rate of 266 deg/sec.

Compare that with now, where even if you fully invest into the Agility Skill Tree, the Atlas only twists at a rate of 78.75 deg/sec.

That's a brutal nerf...

Leg turn rates weren't significantly changed, but the torso twist rates were.

I thought I felt something odd when I first came back into the game after 1 year of break. The Hunchback seemed to twist so much slower than before. I thought it was just my imagination, but no, it's a massive change.

Where did you get that??

Before engine desync 325 engine on atlas had 37 degree/s twist
Engine desync simply put its twist rate at 300 stock engine.

Also if atlas had 266 deg/sec twist speed then what speed did urbie had and why i didnt roleplay attack helicopter?

Actually i know where did you get this... torso yaw speed is not its twist speed.
Yaw is how fast you can fling your head around, while torso still catches up.

Edited by davoodoo, 11 November 2017 - 03:34 PM.

[MechaBattler]

Mcgral18, on 10 November 2017 - 09:03 AM, said:

So, keep Standard Structure worthless because they can add another Cbill sink?


Nah, make STD structure viable instead.

That's what we want. But I'm sure PGI wouldn't mind another Cbill sink. I wouldn't mind either. Just to have the option.

[LordNothing]

davoodoo, on 10 November 2017 - 11:30 AM, said:

That would also be fine though there should be some drawback to it as we neither have physical attacks nor through armor crits ingame.

the drawback is when someone shoots you with something other than a laser, your armor peels away like its nothing. widespread use of reflective armor would lead clans to more mixed loadouts so that they are not caught with their pants down. so you might see more ballistic+laser builds as a counter, which brings down the laser alpha somewhat. im thinking laser damage reduction as much as -50% (though 35% might be more realistic as pgi loves to marginalize things), but with +25% damage for all other weapons, and the only reason the former is so much higher than the latter is because omg those alphas.

[LordNothing]

FupDup, on 10 November 2017 - 10:42 PM, said:

Adding Composite Structure would be stupid when Endo-Composite does the same thing for no durability penalty (TT wise at least). Trying to differentiate them isn't worth the hassle, just do EC only.


Reactive armor works against missiles and artillery, not ballistics. MW4 lied to you.

What you want is Ballistic-Reinforced Armor, but that doesn't come around until 3131 (I really hate limited tech timelines).

i dont think reactive armor (the mw4 fudge way) would be very good with how marginalized ballistics are. there are a couple clan ballistics boats that it could counter, but those mechs are often considered sub par and you would never encounter them enough for it to matter. with is running reflective, maybe you would see more of them. i mostly want reflective as kind of a soft counter to something clan does way too well.

Edited by LordNothing, 11 November 2017 - 10:39 PM.

[davoodoo]

LordNothing, on 11 November 2017 - 10:31 PM, said:

the drawback is when someone shoots you with something other than a laser, your armor peels away like its nothing. widespread use of reflective armor would lead clans to more mixed loadouts so that they are not caught with their pants down. so you might see more ballistic+laser builds as a counter, which brings down the laser alpha somewhat. im thinking laser damage reduction as much as -50% (though 35% might be more realistic as pgi loves to marginalize things), but with +25% damage for all other weapons, and the only reason the former is so much higher than the latter is because omg those alphas.

Well in tabletop it works like that.

You take half the damage from ppc, lasers, flamers and plasma. But you take double damage from punches, debris and artillery. Also ap ammo have much easier time penetrating.

Thats it, it performs like a normal armor against missiles and ballistics and being a normal armor isnt drawback imo.

Edited by davoodoo, 12 November 2017 - 02:48 AM.

[Brain Cancer]

Honestly, it'd be nice to also see direct counters to other types of weapons besides missiles.

Reflective or reactive armor, though given the current meta the former would be superior to most. And ironically, redsmoke would actually be supereffective against it.

[davoodoo]

Brain Cancer, on 12 November 2017 - 09:53 AM, said:

Honestly, it'd be nice to also see direct counters to other types of weapons besides missiles.

Reflective or reactive armor, though given the current meta the former would be superior to most. And ironically, redsmoke would actually be supereffective against it.

Thats the thing though, these 2 are self balancing.

if everybody boats lasers you pack reflective, in answer to that everybody will pack ballistics to which answer will be reactive, so back to lasers and reflective and this circus will continue until youll literally have to guess what will be used and meta breaks down.