37 replies to this topic

[The6thMessenger]

I have some gripes with ballistic mechanics, the UACs, ACs and LBXs, and the RACs. Yes, i have done something like this in the past, but here's another angle to look at it:

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DPS: UAC < AC/LBX < RAC

Now your response could be: "Waaaaat!!!!111111"

In this reconcept, i wanted to tackle the UAC mechanics. Almost always, the goto weapon for dakka is UACs, while the ACs themselves are capable, they aren't just as good as the DPS and then upfront damage the UAC provides. ACs have the range -- that's something, IS has single-shot slugs though with the exception of UAC10s and UAC20s.

Another gripe is that the UACs are unreliable. It's all fun and games when you're bursting double-shots -- but then it jams on you.

So this approach is that, why don't we just balance the UAC around the burst-fire instead? Remove the jam and accordingly increase the cooldown? Make it have lower overall DPS, but have good upfront DPS to further define roles between ACs and UACs? I think the UAC/RAC nodes could be repurposed to have faster ROF/Volley ROF instead.

Quote

- UACs still double tap
- UACs has 0% chance of jamming
- UACs have longer cooldown than standard ACs to offset
- UACs are burst fire -- Clans have +1 shells.

i.e.

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IS - UAC2
Damage: 2
Cooldown: 1.60s

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IS - UAC5
Damage: 2.5 x 2
Volley Fire-Rate: 0.08s
Cooldown: 3.45s

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IS - UAC10
Damage: 3.3334 x 3
Volley Fire-Rate: 0.07s
Cooldown: 5.50s

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IS - UAC20
Damage: 5 x 4
Volley Fire-Rate: 0.06s
Cooldown: 8.75s

Quote

Clan - UAC2
Damage: 1.0 x 2
Volley Fire-Rate: 0.08s
Cooldown: 1.60s

Quote

Clan - UAC5
Damage: 1.6667 x 3
Volley Fire-Rate: 0.07s
Cooldown: 3.45s

Quote

Clan - UAC10
Damage: 2.5 x 4
Volley Fire-Rate: 0.06s
Cooldown: 5.50s

Quote

Clan - UAC20
Damage: 4 x 5
Volley Fire-Rate: 0.05s
Cooldown: 8.75s

Now you might be wondering, "who would use that"? Well, people who wanted to save tonnage, compare that to the AC10 at 12 tons, you do 10 upfront damage for just 9 tons. It also helps that, you can still double-shot with the UACs with zero chance of jamming. Depending on what people would want, either we lower the adjusted cooldown to have it exceed the standard ACs, or surpassed by it.

So, what do you think? If you prefer a higher DPS version, perhaps we can just lower the cooldown:

Spoiler

Quote

IS - UAC2
Damage: 2
Cooldown: 1.20s

Quote

IS - UAC5
Damage: 2.5 x 2
Volley Fire-Rate: 0.08s
Cooldown: 3.00s

Quote

IS - UAC10
Damage: 3.3334 x 3
Volley Fire-Rate: 0.07s
Cooldown: 4.50s

Quote

IS - UAC20
Damage: 5 x 4
Volley Fire-Rate: 0.06s
Cooldown: 6.00s

Quote

Clan - UAC2
Damage: 1.0 x 2
Volley Fire-Rate: 0.08s
Cooldown: 1.20s

Quote

Clan - UAC5
Damage: 1.6667 x 3
Volley Fire-Rate: 0.07s
Cooldown: 3.00s

Quote

Clan - UAC10
Damage: 2.5 x 4
Volley Fire-Rate: 0.06s
Cooldown: 4.50s

Quote

Clan - UAC20
Damage: 4 x 5
Volley Fire-Rate: 0.05s
Cooldown: 6.0s

Edited by The6thMessenger, 27 January 2018 - 03:05 PM.

[Hit the Deck]

Does DPS here mean "damage per second" or something else?

https://mwomercs.com...-what-it-means/

Edited by Hit the Deck, 26 January 2018 - 10:01 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Hit the Deck, on 26 January 2018 - 09:59 PM, said:

Does DPS here mean "damage per second" or something else?

https://mwomercs.com...-what-it-means/

DPS as in damage you do overtime with uninterrupted continuous firing.

[Y E O N N E]

I am trying to figure out what, exactly, you are doing here.

Does it still double tap and we've just spread it out over more shells?

[Sigmar Sich]

I do not really understand suggested change, but i guess i'm in need of sleep. But i do agree, UAC random jam is an obsolete mechanics. And overall, weapon design could be much more interesting.

I would like ACs to be +- as they are now. Sort of as Rifles in BT.
UACs then would be what autocannons in BT are supposed to be - rapid firing aircraft-style cannon (do not mistake with machineguns). They would fire without doubletap, a burst of projectiles, which would do in total more damage than ACs. But they will sacrifice some thing for it. Including ammo efficiency.
RACs are fine as they are, just need more tweaks.
LB cannons should be able to switch to solid shot, but with worse range and velocity than ACs. You dont even need to have two different ammo types, lets just use space magic and say it is all same ammo, but you only switch detonator to fragment projectile after shot or on impact.

Also lasers could be more diverse. For example reducing damage of pulse lasers, but reducing cooldown also. Clan Heavy lasers could be as IS RACs - without cooldown, limited by your heatmanagement.

Also LRMs should be like in Battletech game by HBS - with direct line of fire they would fly like now, but faster and at lower angle. But at indirect fire they should take very high angle, with big spread, to be like area bombardment. This way they still can do indirect damage, but in less annoying way.

Weapons in shooter games should feel and play differently. What we have now is more boring than it could be.

[The6thMessenger]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 January 2018 - 10:47 PM, said:

I am trying to figure out what, exactly, you are doing here.

Does it still double tap and we've just spread it out over more shells?

It still double taps, but now 0% chance of jamming, albeit lower global cooldown. Also ALL uacs are burst-fire in general, only the Clans have +1 shell in their burst fire.

[Khobai]

I dont think youre gonna sell anyone on an 8.75 cooldown for a UAC20

You will be dead before you even get to fire it a second time



Maybe combine your idea with my idea.

Give regular ACs longer range and better velocity. That way UACs can have better dps.

Then the UAC20 could get away with a shorter cooldown. 8.75s is too damn long.

Edited by Khobai, 26 January 2018 - 11:09 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Yeah, with an 8+ second cool-down on the UAC/20, that's almost as bad as being jammed.

Conceptually, this could maybe work but I don't like some of those numbers.

[The6thMessenger]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 January 2018 - 11:08 PM, said:

Yeah, with an 8+ second cool-down on the UAC/20, that's almost as bad as being jammed.

Conceptually, this could maybe work but I don't like some of those numbers.

Well, my format is that the UACs have worse DPS than standard ACs, ofsetting their upfront damage.

We could lower that enough to result better DPS than standard ACs if you like. It's just a concept anyways.

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 11:04 PM, said:

I dont think youre gonna sell anyone on an 8.75 cooldown for a UAC20

You will be dead before you even get to fire it a second time.

You're supposed to double tap it, and then fade. You'd be doing 40 damage every time. It's essentially an AC40.

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 11:04 PM, said:

Maybe combine your idea with my idea.

No, your ideas sucks and lack forsight.

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 11:04 PM, said:

Give regular ACs longer range and better velocity. That way UACs can have better dps.

Then the UAC20 could get away with a shorter cooldown. 8.75s is too damn long.

The idea is that the UACs have better and reliable upfront damage, and the standard ACs have better DPS.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 26 January 2018 - 11:15 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

You're supposed to double tap it, and then fade.

No, your idea sucks.

8.75s cooldown is the worst idea ive ever heard suggested for UAC20

that is far worse than anything I have ever put forward. and I have suggested some pretty terrible ideas in my day.

the UAC20 is not a hit and fade weapon. its range is only 270m. youre brawling when youre in UAC20 range.

the last thing you want when youre brawling is to be waiting 8.75 seconds for your gun to fire.

its the same exact reason you told me my RAC idea was bad. because people dont want to wait for their RAC to go on long cooldown for the magazine to reload.

Quote

The idea is that the UACs have better and reliable upfront damage, and the standard ACs have better DPS.

standard ACs should not be doing better dps than UACs

ACs should be doing reliable upfront damage in large blocks.

UACs should be putting out mad dps but in smaller blocks.

Edited by Khobai, 26 January 2018 - 11:24 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Technically, the cUAC/20 is 360 meters and the IS one is supposed to be 300. The Clan one definitely qualifies as a hit-and-fade weapon, the IS one is in the weird zone. The IS MedLas isn't a brawl weapon, it's hit and fade at only 270 meters.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 11:15 PM, said:

8.75s cooldown is the worst idea ive ever heard suggested for UAC20

that is far worse than anything I have ever put forward.

Yes, because 10 damage 4.0s + 0.5s LGR, or magazine-fed RAC is any better. That's a literal "AC40" you ninny once we take away the jamming.

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 11:15 PM, said:

the UAC20 is not a hit and fade weapon. its range is only 270m. youre brawling when youre in UAC20 range.

No, you're thinking of the standard AC20. The UAC20 however, it's not as good in brawling due to it's burst-fire, even if it's just 3 shots for IS. Not to mention that the Clan-UAC has higher range of 360m, and the IS-UAC is at 300m.

And as far as I'm concerned, range does not necessarily assign it's role. I mean wouldn't it make much more sense for the SRM2s to be for striker roles than brawling roles? Again, that's just your one-dimensional thinking again.

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 11:15 PM, said:

standard ACs should not be doing better dps than UACs

ACs should be doing reliable upfront damage in large blocks.

UACs should be putting out mad dps but in smaller blocks.

It's essentially just because you say so. At the same justification (which you provided none), i could equally say that the Clan SPL should be able to one-shot anyone from 810m with a single shot at any component.

Now you might say "because of muh lore" honestly, this is not TT, this is MWO, an FPS game. And it's not that the Standard ACs are doing better dps, it's just that the UACs are doing worse DPS.

If it's not lore and it's stats -- that is exactly what the changes tackle.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 26 January 2018 - 11:32 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

and the IS-UAC is at 300m.

ISUAC is 270m not 300m

please fact check before mouthing off

the fact remains no one wants to be in a 270m brawl with a limp autocannon.

8.75s cooldown is absurd. nobody wants that.

even heavy gauss fires faster than that. which is just laughable. lolol.

im not saying your idea doesnt have any merit. we both agree UACs should not jam. Im just saying the 8.75s cooldown is something no one wants.

Quote

The Clan one definitely qualifies as a hit-and-fade weapon, the IS one is in the weird zone.

no argument there. clans can actually fit it on faster more agile mechs too. the clan version can certainly be used that way.

I was talking about the IS version though.

And in either case I wouldnt want to wait 8.75s for it to fire. its too long.

it doesnt align with the cooldown of my other weapons either. if its going to be used for hit and fade the cooldown needs to align better with the cooldown of lasers.

at the very least the cooldown should align with CERML so no more than 5.75s

Edited by Khobai, 26 January 2018 - 11:43 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 11:30 PM, said:

ISUAC is 270m not 300m

Oh my bad, i guess that was IS overquirk talking.

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 11:30 PM, said:

please fact check before mouthing off

Says the one who doesn't know **** about Gatling Gun, and couldn't apply concepts. I mean really, how hard is it to watch a gatling-gun documentary to learn the advantages of the design? How hard is it to realize that Rotary Cannons fire in burst to save ammunition cause it eats up too much?

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 11:30 PM, said:

the fact remains no one wants to be in a 270m brawl with a limp autocannon.

Because you're not supposed to brawl with it, you're supposed to hit and fade.

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 11:30 PM, said:

8.75s cooldown is absurd. nobody wants that.

I would -- but yeah i suppose i'm a nobody. Still though, that's just the concept, it can be adjusted depending on how the UAC is intended to turn out. I mean honestly, you can't really think with more than one dimension can you?

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 11:30 PM, said:

even heavy gauss fires faster than that. which is just laughable. lolol.

Yeah, because the Heavy gauss puts out 40 damage for 12/14 tons worth of equipment that you could LFE/CXL at 270/360m. *sarcasm

Again, one-dimensional, no foresight. While people would laugh at your shortcomings, it makes me sad instead.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 26 January 2018 - 11:45 PM.

[Khobai]

yeah so nothing to see here...

guy is just mad no one likes his 8.75s slowpoke cannon

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 11:45 PM, said:

yeah so nothing to see here...

guy is just mad no one likes his 8.75s slowpoke cannon

Not really no.

That was just an example, do you even know what "i.e." means?

The point of this concept is also two fold: changing the position of UACs in terms of DPS in relation to other ACs, and how the jam mechanic works.

It's sad that you're hung up on just one weapon type, when there's more to the suggestion that that. So shortsighted.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 26 January 2018 - 11:30 PM, said:

no argument there. clans can actually fit it on faster more agile mechs too. the clan version can certainly be used that way.

I was talking about the IS version though.

And in either case I wouldnt want to wait 8.75s for it to fire. its too long.

TBQH, there is no reason we couldn't or shouldn't increase the range on the IS UAC/20. Like the isUAC/10, PGI gave it a range lower than what it had in TT to keep it distinct from the AC. But that's the reverse of what they did for the AC/5 and UAC/5, where they just increased the range on the AC and left the UAC with its appropriate number.

Now TT doesn't matter, but a double tap is a burst, and burst is more appropriate for hit-and-fade than it is for going ham in a brawl. That's what RACs are mechanically best at. Make the UACs hit-and-fade, add in the Clan RACs, and there we go.

[The6thMessenger]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 January 2018 - 11:52 PM, said:

Now TT doesn't matter, but a double tap is a burst, and burst is more appropriate for hit-and-fade than it is for going ham in a brawl. That's what RACs are mechanically best at. Make the UACs hit-and-fade, add in the Clan RACs, and there we go.

EXACTLY.

I could never fathom why all he sees is the 8.75s cooldown.

[Y E O N N E]

The6thMessenger, on 26 January 2018 - 11:55 PM, said:

EXACTLY.

I could never fathom why all he sees is the 8.75s cooldown.

I think 6 seconds tops. There are practical limits. The AC/20 and UAC/20 are used so differently that a DPS advantage on the UAC doesn't seem like it means much. And if the AC/20 is allowed to twin-fire again, well...

[Khobai]

Quote

I could never fathom why all he sees is the 8.75s cooldown.

because you dont read my posts

I explained it quite succinctly


it doesnt align with laser cooldowns

Quote

I think 6 seconds tops.

6 seconds aligns better with CERML