125 replies to this topic

[Soleran]

WrathOfDeadguy, on 13 November 2017 - 10:22 PM, said:

MWO's doubled armor values already benefit assaults far more than any other weight class. Even with a lower multiplier, armor nodes on the skill tree also benefit assaults more because they start with a higher value to multiply.

Armor nodes on the skill tree actually benefit heavy mechs LESS then lighter mechs as a percentage of their total armor. Now speed tweak actually benefits faster mechs far more then heavy mechs point per point, weird they normalized the armor tree but not the other trees based on weight.

[Wolfways]

Dewd, on 14 November 2017 - 04:43 AM, said:

The locust isn't lasting longer because it is tankier, it lasts longer because people have a hard time shooting a close, fast moving target. If mobility/agility of the 100 tonners was increased slightly, it would help them out a lot - reversing out of a sticky situation would be easier and that would go a long way to improving their survivability.

Well I don't know what it's like in comp matches, but the reason lights don't die fast isn't to do with aim but rather not many use meta builds. I'm sure killing lights is much easier when you have a huge alpha strike but, in QP at least, not many do.

The problem is pgi are balancing via meta, which isn't something most players use.

[Ziogualty]

WrathOfDeadguy, on 13 November 2017 - 10:22 PM, said:

MWO's doubled armor values already benefit assaults far more than any other weight class. Even with a lower multiplier, armor nodes on the skill tree also benefit assaults more because they start with a higher value to multiply.

A light with 2x TT armor values still cannot survive a customized assault 'Mech hitting it with 60-90 points of damage. That's an instagib if it hits, even in the CT.

An assault, in contrast, can simply laugh off the 20-40 points of damage the light 'Mech is capable of, where in TT that would have been a powerful blow even to a 100-tonner. In MWO, a 100-tonner can carry around 120 points of CT armor even before quirks if it frontloads.

Thus, the assault loses none of its lethality (except against heavies and other assaults), while the light 'Mech is already only 50% as effective as it would be with stock armor values against any other 'Mech including other lights. Exactly how much tankier do you think assaults ought to be? At what point do you have to concede that what you actually want is for light 'Mechs to not be viable anymore?

Mechs move. And lights move FAST.
Armor and firepower are dependant to mobility.
Looks like you don't even consider this in your post.

"An assault, in contrast, can simply laugh off the 20-40 points of damage the light 'Mech is capable of"...
Ask any assault if they laugh at 20 damage every 2,5 second on their back.
You talk like mechs are stationary in game and MWO is a turn based strategy game...

[Wolfways]

Attank, on 14 November 2017 - 07:03 AM, said:

You talk like mechs are stationary in game

The DWF practically is

[James Argent]

OK, let's let you trade percentages of an Assault mech's weapon hardpoints for 'armor packs.' 25% of your hardpoints for 25% increased armor.

Tank OR gank, not both.

[Khobai]

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OK, let's let you trade percentages of an Assault mech's weapon hardpoints for 'armor packs.' 25% of your hardpoints for 25% increased armor.

Tank OR gank, not both.

but heavies can do both so why shouldnt assaults be able to?

heavies are faster, more agile, have better hitboxes, and have better survivability in general than assaults. on top of still being able to carry enough weapons to nearly max out the heat bar in one alphastrike. why the hell should I play a 100 ton assault when I can play a 65 ton clan heavy that practically goes twice as fast, is half the size, has decent agility and can still torso twist, and can carry a massive assault melting laser vomit loadout?

assaults should absolutely be able to do both, because heavies can.

the heavy weight class being way better than every other weight class isnt exactly something new though. but it is something that needs to be fixed.

since assaults are natural predators of heavies, fixing assaults seems like a good place to start

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"An assault, in contrast, can simply laugh off the 20-40 points of damage the light 'Mech is capable of

yeah but a lot of attacks simply miss lights outright

nobody misses assaults

assaults take all the damage sent their way on the chin. and not being able to torso twist reduced their survivability by like 10-15% probably. I mean torso twisting was never all that great, but it did help.

assaults definitely need some help defensively after losing their torso twist

Edited by Khobai, 14 November 2017 - 11:29 AM.

[Athom83]

Wolfways, on 14 November 2017 - 07:23 AM, said:

The DWF practically is

Says that sniping assault mech as a whale waddles in behind him.

[process]

Khobai, on 14 November 2017 - 09:30 AM, said:

heavies are faster, more agile, have better hitboxes, and have better survivability in general than assaults. on top of still being able to carry enough weapons to nearly max out the heat bar in one alphastrike. why the hell should I play a 100 ton assault when I can play a 65 ton clan heavy that practically goes twice as fast, is half the size, has decent agility and can still torso twist, and can carry a massive assault melting laser vomit loadout?

Exactly. Assaults' added durability is largely negated by their size and speed; their firepower is often matched by lighter mechs, and they're often internally capped by crit slots or heat.

Improving agility is the first step to making them more balanced and, perhaps more importantly, fun to play. If PGI was actually doing iterative balance passes, we could run that for a few weeks to see if additional agility/armor/heat gen/??? quirks are needed.

[Mole]

I will not argue against mobility increases for Assaults. I'm a light pilot and I think people are super overreacting when they cry "lights OP!" but I feel as though it is wrong that whenever I am piloting the light 'mech of my choice and I see an Assault 'mech all by his lonesome I start slavering at the mouth and hissing out "Fresh meat..." at my screen even if I've got no team mates to back me up.

EDIT: You know what? The more I think about this the more I realize that this behavior is not limited to my light 'mechs. This behavior also repeats itself in mediums and heavies too. There's something wrong when I can feel confident soloing any given 'mech from the weight class that is supposed to be the scariest thing on the battlefield while piloting pretty much any weight class below it.

Edited by Mole, 14 November 2017 - 11:29 AM.

[FupDup]

Soleran, on 14 November 2017 - 06:58 AM, said:

Armor nodes on the skill tree actually benefit heavy mechs LESS then lighter mechs as a percentage of their total armor. Now speed tweak actually benefits faster mechs far more then heavy mechs point per point, weird they normalized the armor tree but not the other trees based on weight.

With the way percentages work, higher base values gain a higher benefit from the same % than a lower base value. Meaning, if every mech had the same armor multiplier, then lights would gain almost nothing at all and assaults would get obnoxious.

Let's look at some actual values though.
An unquirked 20-ton mech can carry up to 138 armor and has a skill tree multiplier of 1.26.

An unquirked 100-ton mech can carry up to 614 armor and has a skill tree multiplier of 1.10.


138 * 1.26 = 173.88 armor (+35.88)
614 * 1.10 = 675.40 armor (+61.40)

Mathematically, the big robot is still getting more benefit, it's just not nearly as skewed as it would be if every mech used the same multiplier.


What if both mechs used the same multiplier?

138 * 1.10 = 151.80 armor (+13.80)
614 * 1.26 = 773.64 armor (+159.64)

That should demonstrate the point quite nicely.

Edited by FupDup, 14 November 2017 - 11:37 AM.

[Khobai]

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Improving agility is the first step to making them more balanced

assaults arnt supposed to be agile though

im not convinced restoring their agility back to where it was is the best solution

I kindve like that lights can run circles around assaults now, I dont wanna go back to assaults being able to easily track lights again.

But I do recognize that assaults need a survivability increase to get back to the same level they used to be at. Theres gotta be other ways to increase their survivability without making them as agile as they used to be

Edited by Khobai, 14 November 2017 - 11:32 AM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 14 November 2017 - 11:30 AM, said:

assaults arnt supposed to be agile though

Depends on the specific assault in question...Gargoyles and Victors would like a word with you.

[Khobai]

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Depends on the specific assault in question...Gargoyles and Victors would like a word with you.

ok but even in the case of the gargoyle, it shouldnt be as agile as a medium... at best it should be as agile as a mech thats 5-10 tons lighter.

its a friggin 80 ton mech. nothing is going to make it move like a medium. at best it should move like a mid-tonnage heavy.

or like the summoner... the summoner is as agile as some light mechs which is just stupid. its a 70 ton mech it shouldnt move like a light.

mech agility needs to be more consistent based on tonnage. there shouldnt be crazy outliers.

some assaults might be slightly more agile than other assaults but no assault should be as agile as a medium mech.



the way it should work is simple

every mech should have an agility rating assigned to it based on its tonnage. more tonnage = less agility. but it should be nice and consistent and the same for all mechs.

then some mechs that are supposed to be more or less agile would simply get bumped up or down one or two places. so a gargoyle might get bumped down two spots to having the same agility as a 70 ton mech.

Edited by Khobai, 14 November 2017 - 11:40 AM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 14 November 2017 - 11:34 AM, said:

ok but even in the case of the gargoyle, it shouldnt be as agile as a medium... at best it should be as agile as a mech thats 5-10 tons lighter.

its a friggin 80 ton mech. nothing is going to make it move like a medium. at best it should move like a mid-tonnage heavy.

or like the summoner... the summoner is as agile as some light mechs which is just stupid. its a 70 ton mech it shouldnt move like a light.

mech agility needs to be more consistent based on tonnage. there shouldnt be crazy outliers.

some assaults might be slightly more agile than other assaults but no assault should be as agile as a medium mech.

I think that having agility of a mech up to "15 tons lighter" might be permissible in extreme circumstances like the Gargles...but some like the Linebacker are just pants-on-head insane.

I wonder if the Black Lanner will get similar treat, hello 55-ton Locust...

[Athom83]

FupDup, on 14 November 2017 - 11:28 AM, said:

138 * 1.26 = 173.88 armor (+35.88)
614 * 1.10 = 675.40 armor (+61.40)

Mathematically, the big robot is still getting more benefit, it's just not nearly as skewed as it would be if every mech used the same multiplier.

Yet to fit more weaponry and bigger engines, usually the assault mech caps out their armor around 100 (25 points from arms and legs) less than their max. Then add on larger hitboxes and lower agility to spread damage out (or outright dodge damage). In theory, you are right and assaults get larger bonuses. However theory doesn't always model reality.

[davoodoo]

process, on 14 November 2017 - 11:22 AM, said:

Exactly. Assaults' added durability is largely negated by their size and speed; their firepower is often matched by lighter mechs, and they're often internally capped by crit slots or heat.

Or ghost heat.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...84895615b680f81
34% cooling efficinecy. could work if you could fire all 6...

Edited by davoodoo, 14 November 2017 - 11:47 AM.

[Khobai]

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I think that having agility of a mech up to "15 tons lighter" might be permissible in extreme circumstances like the Gargles...but some like the Linebacker are just pants-on-head insane.

I wonder if the Black Lanner will get similar treat, hello 55-ton Locust...

yeah having the gargoyle move like a 65 tonner is probably fine too.

the point I was making is that the whole thing needs to be more consistent and not have crazy *** outliers where you have a 95 ton mech that moves like a medium or a 70 ton mech that moves like a light

some mechs can be more agile than other mechs in the same weight class, but it should be within reason.

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Yet to fit more weaponry and bigger engines, usually the assault mech caps out their armor around 100 (25 points from arms and legs) less than their max. Then add on larger hitboxes and lower agility to spread damage out (or outright dodge damage). In theory, you are right and assaults get larger bonuses. However theory doesn't always model reality.

Increasing the max armor cap on ST and CT is one potential solution

Most assaults would pay tonnage for the extra torso protection if they could

Assaults definitely lack torso protection now that they cant torso twist as well to distribute damage

Edited by Khobai, 14 November 2017 - 11:51 AM.

[Soleran]

FupDup, on 14 November 2017 - 11:28 AM, said:

With the way percentages work, higher base values gain a higher benefit from the same % than a lower base value. Meaning, if every mech had the same armor multiplier, then lights would gain almost nothing at all and assaults would get obnoxious.

Yeah except :

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Armor nodes on the skill tree actually benefit heavy mechs LESS then lighter mechs as a percentage of their total armor.

I already stated that, I just didn't think anyone needed a basic math lesson. The reason I pointed out the fact the percentages are different is because when we move into the mobility tree it benefits smaller mechs much more and it doesn't change when I am in an assault or heavy......................see where I was going with that now? Assaults are easy targets because of their mobility not because of their armor.

[Athom83]

Khobai, on 14 November 2017 - 11:46 AM, said:

Increasing the max armor cap on ST and CT is one potential solution Most assaults would pay tonnage for the extra torso protection if they could Assaults definitely lack torso protection now that they cant torso twist as well to distribute damage

Another would be to give them a damage reduction like missile doors do currently. Heavier assaults get slightly higher reduction stats of course (start out at 5% at 80t and increase by 5% every 5 tons). I mean, that is within reason given the extra thicc armor and heavy structure.

[Khobai]

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Another would be to give them a damage reduction like missile doors do currently. Heavier assaults get slightly higher reduction stats of course (start out at 5% at 80t and increase by 5% every 5 tons). I mean, that is within reason given the extra thicc armor and heavy structure.

since theres no way to repair in-game, damage reduction is the exact same thing as armor/structure quirks.

unless youre talking about situational damage reduction that only kicks in when certain trigger conditions are met (like how missile doors have to be closed to get the damage reduction)

maybe something like the damage shield idea someone had where mechs get damage reduction that starts to kick in after theyve suffered X damage within Y seconds. but that would be weird and I dunno if I like that...

Edited by Khobai, 14 November 2017 - 12:04 PM.