125 replies to this topic

[Foxfire kadrpg]

I really think the optimum solution is to improve Assault firepower, not armor.

[Athom83]

Khobai, on 14 November 2017 - 12:00 PM, said:

since theres no way to repair in-game, damage reduction is the exact same thing as armor/structure quirks.

True. However, the damage reduction would be more consistent than the armor/structure quirks. Thinking about it somewhat realistically, because the area of the ablative armor is much greater, energy is better distributed on the top so the damage doesn't penetrate as deap to layers of armor farther down, effectively "reducing" the damage sustained to its armor. Similar to the structure, its so heavy/thick that it absorbs the damage better. Thinking on it for a bit, technically this could also be a way to "balance" the armor types. Standard armor of both factions have a certain reduction at those larger sizes, IS FF has a larger reduction because its so much bigger, and Clan FF and IS LFF only gets a slight change from the standard armor reduction (because there isn't much size to it).

Foxfire kadrpg, on 14 November 2017 - 12:19 PM, said:

I really think the optimum solution is to improve Assault firepower, not armor.

No, they have plenty of firepower yet die to quickly to put that firepower to use.

[davoodoo]

Athom83, on 14 November 2017 - 12:30 PM, said:

No, they have plenty of firepower yet die to quickly to put that firepower to use.

Novacat
5mpl 2 lpl at 70 tons
mad2c
6 mpl 2 lpl at 85 tons
supernova
6 mpl 2 lpl at 90 tons

night gyr
2 gauss 2 hll at 75 tons
mc mk2
2 guass 6 ermeds at 90 tons.

Wheres that plenty mate?? they have barely more than heavies despite 15-20 tons extra weight.

Edited by davoodoo, 14 November 2017 - 12:36 PM.

[FupDup]

davoodoo, on 14 November 2017 - 12:34 PM, said:

Novacat
5mpl 2 lpl at 70 tons
mad2c
6 mpl 2 lpl at 85 tons
supernova
6 mpl 2 lpl at 90 tons

night gyr
2 gauss 2 hll at 75 tons
mc mk2
2 guass 6 ermeds at 90 tons.

Wheres that plenty mate?? they have barely more than heavies.

The Night Gyr and Nova Cat are "pocket assaults" that are much less mobile than the average heavy, not a good comparison.

Also, the assaults probably have more heatsinks which let them use the same payload more frequently.

Edited by FupDup, 14 November 2017 - 12:37 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

I really think the optimum solution is to improve Assault firepower, not armor.

mechs dont need to die faster in this game, they die too fast as is

assaults need to live longer

heavies need less firepower because heavies are way too good compared to all other weight classes

and mediums need more speed

that would improve TTK across the board, balance heavies that are currently way too good compared to other weight classes, and help medium mechs that suffer due to fast heavies that go the same speed and carry more weapons and armor

Edited by Khobai, 14 November 2017 - 12:42 PM.

[Athom83]

davoodoo, on 14 November 2017 - 12:34 PM, said:

Novacat
5mpl 2 lpl at 70 tons
mad2c
6 mpl 2 lpl at 85 tons
supernova
6 mpl 2 lpl at 90 tons

night gyr
2 gauss 2 hll at 75 tons
mc mk2
2 guass 6 ermeds at 90 tons.

Wheres that plenty mate?? they have barely more than heavies.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9f446767679502f
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f3cd51e56249fae
Ayyy lmao.

PS; Just because you use bad/low firepower assaults and compare them to high firepower heavies doesn't means assaults can't carry the firepower (and heatsinks to upkeep that firepower, something you also left out).

[davoodoo]

FupDup, on 14 November 2017 - 12:36 PM, said:

The Night Gyr and Nova Cat are "pocket assaults" that are much less mobile than the average heavy, not a good comparison.

Also, the assaults probably have more heatsinks which let them use the same payload more frequently.

then what exactly are oh idk, direhwale and warhawk or even mad 2c d which get staggering firepower of 2 gausses and 2 erll despite 340 max.

[FupDup]

davoodoo, on 14 November 2017 - 12:44 PM, said:

then what exactly are oh idk, direhwale and warhawk or even mad 2c d which get staggering firepower of 2 gausses and 2 erll despite 340 max.

The Dire Whale is outgunning nearly everything, its big weaknesses are mobility and hitboxes instead of lacking firepower.

Warhawk is a bit faster and more agile than the typical assault, and it just isn't built optimally anyways (e.g. FF instead of Endo, or really it doesn't need either for an energy loadout).

Mad 2C has some of the most brutal loadouts in the game like 2 LBX20 + 4 ASRM6. The D variant is just a lemon, ignore it.

Edited by FupDup, 14 November 2017 - 12:51 PM.

[davoodoo]

Athom83, on 14 November 2017 - 12:39 PM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9f446767679502f
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f3cd51e56249fae
Ayyy lmao.

PS; Just because you use bad/low firepower assaults and compare them to high firepower heavies doesn't means assaults can't carry the firepower (and heatsinks to upkeep that firepower, something you also left out).

Sure

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d9a15e2a11916c9

65 tons...

FupDup, on 14 November 2017 - 12:48 PM, said:

The Dire Whale is outgunning nearly everything, its big weaknesses are mobility and hitboxes instead of lacking firepower.

Warhawk is a bit faster and more agile than the typical assault, and it just isn't built optimally anyways (e.g. FF instead of Endo, or really it doesn't need either for an energy loadout).

Mad 2C has some of the most brutal loadouts in the game like 2 LBX20 + 4 ASRM6.

like what??
im putting as much firepower on my kodiak while getting bigger engine on top of that and mc mk2 can already match kodiaks ballistics firepower. Thats ballistics though. mad2c matches its vomit capability.

Warhawk isnt supposed to be agile and tbh isnt, its a sniper which should have long range firepower instead, but novacat matches it with erppc while being smaller and more agile.

and i was talking about mad 2c d specifically, the variant which cant put more than 340xl and packs less firepower than nightgyr...

Edited by davoodoo, 14 November 2017 - 01:10 PM.

[Tlords]

Soleran, on 14 November 2017 - 06:58 AM, said:

....weird they normalized the armor tree but not the other trees based on weight.

Amen brother!

[B0oN]

Torso twist
+
9 MPL

...
Find out more on the next episode of the "Elusive Assault Shin Kicker"

[Raudo Testoman]

Assaults are fine.
Naturally some mechs and variants work better, others not so.

What Eve-O taught me is that PvP is about range control. I think this applies to any human vs human scenario. PvP-games, MMA, world war....
If you can dictate at which range the engagement takes place, deal optimal damage at flexible ranges and still have the ability to disengage if things go wrong, then you'll have good chances of winning and surviving.

This is why META (Most Efficient Tactic Available) steer towards agile, mobile and flexible ranged builds.
Take real world battleships for example. They were made obsolete by faster, more agile missile cruisers and such.

Assault mechs speed makes it difficult to dictate ranges and it can't disengage if things go wrong for them.
Making Assaults harder to kill won't solve either of these problems. It only prolongs your suffering under enemy fire.

How to improve your Assault gameplay:
-Increase your effective range and/or mobility
-Compensate your speed and/or range disadvantages by correctly positioning yourself on the battlefield
-Have support. Your teammates can tackle, pin down, suppress targets which can compensate your lack of mobility and effective range

But especially support is lacking in QP. In many matches there's heavy or two in the C-lance. Its a nascaring match then.

But hey... If PGI was buffing Assaults then i think a good way would be allow heavier mechs more skill nodes.

[dario03]

Buffs for weaker assaults sure but top assaults are very good.
Need medium and light buffs more.

[davoodoo]

Raudo Testoman, on 14 November 2017 - 02:18 PM, said:

Take real world battleships for example. They were made obsolete by faster, more agile missile cruisers and such.

Which packed firepower capable of taking down battlehips...

[Foxfire kadrpg]

Khobai, on 14 November 2017 - 12:36 PM, said:

mechs dont need to die faster in this game, they die too fast as is

I respectfully disagree, although evidence suggests I'm unique in thinking Time to Kill is too long.

I'm of the opinion that sustaining incoming fire for too long prevents that player from pondering his position in the game, de-incentives ambushes and ultimately leads to roving deathballs being the all-to-frequent method of play. Why do anything but group up into the ball, when carefully positioning yourself behind your opponent only makes him turn around and inform his ball that someone is now in view?

Of course, if we're going to separate assaults from heavies with survivability, maybe they should have significantly better torso twisting ability?

[Snazzy Dragon]

Gee, the more I see complaints about assaults sucking in this post, the more I see a correlation in average scores...

⠀⠀⠀⠰⡿⠿⠛⠛⠻⠿⣷
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⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⢸⣿⣿⣷⠀⠀⠀⠀⠛⠛⣿⣿⣿⡛⠿⠷
⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⠿⠿⠋⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⣿⣿⣿⠇
⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠉⠁
⠀⠀⠀⠀⣿⣷⣄⠀⢶⣶⣷⣶⣶⣤⣀
⠀⠀⠀⠀⣿⣿⣿⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠙⠻⠗
⠀⠀⠀⣰⣿⣿⣿⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⣀⣠⣤⣴⣶⡄
⠀⣠⣾⣿⣿⣿⣥⣶⣶⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⠿⠿⠛⠃
⢰⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡄
⢸⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡁
⠈⢿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⠁
⠀⠀⠛⢿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⣿⡿⠟
⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠉⠉⠉

[Athom83]

davoodoo, on 14 November 2017 - 12:48 PM, said:

Sure
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d9a15e2a11916c9
65 tons...

Except for the fact UACs do 2x their damage, so that one had 100 firepower (without GH btw which that Catapult will have), and the RAC Atlas has a 180 firepower in game. In the Loadout sim, any range within 400m your Cat survives for about 20 seconds at most with T2 setting (weighted random CT) for both while that Atlas still has armor on all components (for the sake of the argument, I tried it with both not having skills and both with. The Cat doesn't survive much longer). And it gets worse for the Cat at higher teir settings, even seeing it only last about 4.3 seconds at 400m. It survives longer at 500m, yet it still dies without removing the armor from one of the Atlas's components.

davoodoo, on 14 November 2017 - 12:48 PM, said:

and i was talking about mad 2c d specifically, the variant which cant put more than 340xl and packs less firepower than nightgyr...

And again, as I said, you were comparing high FP heavies with relatively lower FP assaults. Also, what I find funny is that all your examples are Clan, and not any in IS.

[FupDup]

davoodoo, on 14 November 2017 - 12:48 PM, said:

like what??
im putting as much firepower on my kodiak while getting bigger engine on top of that and mc mk2 can already match kodiaks ballistics firepower. Thats ballistics though. mad2c matches its vomit capability.

That's why I said "nearly" everything. The Whale is still close to the top of the firepower list even if it doesn't hold the crown anymore.

davoodoo, on 14 November 2017 - 12:48 PM, said:

Warhawk isnt supposed to be agile and tbh isnt, its a sniper which should have long range firepower instead, but novacat matches it with erppc while being smaller and more agile.

If you check the agility stats like twist speed, turn speed, etc. the Warhawk is better than a lot of other assaults. Not enough to make a difference, but it's there.

[davoodoo]

Athom83, on 14 November 2017 - 02:58 PM, said:

And again, as I said, you were comparing high FP heavies with relatively lower FP assaults. Also, what I find funny is that all your examples are Clan, and not any in IS.

Oh mate.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d48aada4e7bc309

highest possible laser alpha

[Athom83]

davoodoo, on 14 November 2017 - 03:10 PM, said:

Oh mate.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d48aada4e7bc309 highest possible laser alpha

For the sake of the argument, lets loadup the simulator and set the range at the edge of your LL optimal. It dies even quicker than the Cat. Okay, lets make it 500. Now it survives to 30 seconds. 600m? 40 seconds. Okay, lets see at 200m brawling range where the Atlas shines. The Black Knight lasts all of 15 seconds. Now lets add a second Black Knight; First dies in 14 seconds, and the second barely survives killing the Atlas at 60 seconds. However the Atlas still did far more raw damage than both the Black Knights combined. And it gets worse for the Knights if the Atlas gets set to shoot for XL STs.

Also, you just proved my point. You specifically chose the extreme high alpha clan heavy mechs as a representation of all lighter mechs. When you look at more realistic builds, the firepower gap widens.

Edited by Athom83, 14 November 2017 - 03:29 PM.