57 replies to this topic

[Maxxi]

You are mixing a bad player with a troll player.

A bad player use a bad combination of weapons, bad mech or bad position.

A troll player simply want to burn to overheat you (lol) IRL.

For the first group, there's a learning curve. For the second group there's a report system. Sometimes the player is tilted, or is trying someting new. Not always are malicious players.

[Jack Booted Thug]

Maxxi, on 14 November 2017 - 08:48 AM, said:

You are mixing a bad player with a troll player.

A bad player use a bad combination of weapons, bad mech or bad position.

A troll player simply want to burn to overheat you (lol) IRL.

For the first group, there's a learning curve. For the second group there's a report system. Sometimes the player is tilted, or is trying someting new. Not always are malicious players.

No, I'm generally malicious. Someone once made a thread about quick play not being your personal toilet. But it really is and it's so much fun.

[Mystere]

My joystick does not give a flying ****!

[Davegt27]

Bud Crue, on 14 November 2017 - 05:09 AM, said:

I like it!

T5, I’m a comin home!

me likey T5

[Mcgral18]

Zero Sum


Top x percentage is Tier 1, not an EXP bar where everyone who isn't a Top Tier Terribad can become Tier 1 if they play enough.


That alone would help filter with the current MM system, and relief valves if population becomes an issue.
It doesn't have to be fancy, it just has to do a better job

[Magnus Santini]

I'd rather see more encouragement of good players by telling them good job or working well with them in the game. And encouraging lesser players to get better by giving them an idea of what they could have done that would work better. Because that makes playing more fun and less about getting a bad peer review. And if you really want to encourage good players send them a group invite or something.

[Helsbane]

There does need to be a better sorting system in place. I freely admit that I belong in tier 2 at most, but I've managed to push my XP bar to the top of tier 1.

[Methanoid]

for any matchmaking to work, you need players, lots of them, we dont have that so it doesnt matter what MM proposals show up tbh.

[The Lighthouse]

Tarogato, on 14 November 2017 - 05:01 AM, said:

So you know when you have those matches where there's players on your team that deal like... 50 damage, or you spectate them and they obviously don't belong in your tier. Or you kill an enemy who just stands still in front of you chainfiring his medium lasers and blatting LRMs inside minimum range...



We should have the ability to report them for being bad. If you get enough votes callling you bad, it automatically bumps you down one tier rating. Votes only count against you if you also did bad in that match. So like... people can't troll you by trying to knock your tier rating down if you did say 500+ damage. Only counts if you actually did bad. Maybe it can bump you down a tier if you accrue enough downvotes, or maybe each downvote would only take a small nugget out of your PSR.

And do the same thing for good players. Got a troll alt account in your match? Report him for being OP. He gets enough votes... he'll bump up in PSR automatically. But the upvote only counts if he did really good in the match, like 600+ or 5+ kills.

Maybe introduce this system alongside a reputation system. So you can vote people post-match for good comms, or good teamwork, or drop calling, or being a nice polite dude, or ... being a crass stubborn dummy. What's the point? I dunno. But it'd be cute. Maybe titles and badges as rewards for getting good reputations, just a feel-good thing. Reps don't have to be displayed publically... but could be a toggle option, just like tier rating.



Okay, I admit, most of the reason I made this thread is because I wanted to reply to the other thread with the same name. But somebody decided they wanted to lock it... so I had to make a new one to post my idea. So... yeah. There's my idea, wheeeeee_eeeeeeee...

Most forum software support "Like" and "Dislike" buttons. But most forums do not use "Dislike" at all, or had "Dislike" button and later removed it.

For a very good reason. And this same good reason is why this is simply not going to fly well.

Edited by The Lighthouse, 14 November 2017 - 11:16 PM.

[Tarogato]

The Lighthouse, on 14 November 2017 - 11:16 PM, said:

Most forum software support "Like" and "Dislike" buttons. But most forums do not use "Dislike" at all, or had "Dislike" button and later removed it.

For a very good reason. And this same good reason is why this is simply not going to fly well.

Nono, I meant in game. =P

[The Lighthouse]

Tarogato, on 14 November 2017 - 11:19 PM, said:

Nono, I meant in game. =P

Yes, and it will be far worse in game when people have even less time to make a judgement and are in state of far more emotional.

This is the proven, best way to utterly annihilate the game community. I doubt this game can afford destroyed community.

[Jun Watarase]

Wont take long before some people deliberately play badly and ask to be reported so they can go back to tier 5 and club seals.

[Tarogato]

The Lighthouse, on 14 November 2017 - 11:40 PM, said:

Yes, and it will be far worse in game when people have even less time to make a judgement and are in state of far more emotional.

This is the proven, best way to utterly annihilate the game community. I doubt this game can afford destroyed community.

Then if that's a concern, have it always been hidden to the player. You wouldn't know if people are voting to have your tier demoted, your tier just slowly erodes. Or vice-versa.

Maybe only have a positive rep system that's available and displayed. Or not have it at all if we're just not allowed to vote people for being nice, or team players, etc.

[Kotzi]

You are practically saying. When player A is doing good and PSR rises anyway you can upvote him. And when player B is doing bad and PSR will fall anyway you can downvote him? Thats redundant imo. And i have too small confidence on integrity and reason in people on the interwebs and in games to support making MWO a beauty pageant in any form.

[The Lighthouse]

Tarogato, on 14 November 2017 - 11:55 PM, said:

Then if that's a concern, have it always been hidden to the player. You wouldn't know if people are voting to have your tier demoted, your tier just slowly erodes. Or vice-versa.

Maybe only have a positive rep system that's available and displayed. Or not have it at all if we're just not allowed to vote people for being nice, or team players, etc.

You truly have not seen how low humans can go. You really should had played games like Dota 2 and see how nasty human nature is.


So, in Dota 2 we had 'communicate' ban, a.k.a mute ban. Idea was simple, there were a lot of nasty people playing Dota 2, shouting, swearing, making noises, etc. So if enough people would vote, that person is banned from communication. He could still type and shouting at microphone, but no other 9 people in the game could see what the person wrote or said. See, it looked like a really amazing idea. Bad people getting automatically removed from conversation so everyone else can be happy, right? And of course, that banned person cannot see who voted against him so no revenge or whatsoever, right?



Nah.


So, the people who do not behave well on online are mostly also ones who negatively react to penalty. After mute ban was introduced, we had seen incredible increase of griefing from those muted people, seriously degrading overall game experience. This whole mute ban really did not fix the issue at all, only made worse. Most of the time, they also spammed chat-wheel "Well Played!" all game.


Wait, there was more! It was not just banned people were abusing the system. Not just for communication, people began to use vote features on many other things.


That person is too terrible. Vote for muting!

That person is too good. Vote for muting!

That person does not listen to me. Vote for muting!

And so forth.

What happened was that anyone who were PSR rating of 4000 and higher were ALL muted (that included me, despite I almost never used chat nor microphone). Too many games where all 10 people were all muted; only thing we could do was spamming "Well Played!" for interaction.

This is how "Well Played!" meme was born from Dota 2.


For a while, Valve tried really hard to set numbers so this cannot be abused, but then we got waves of streamers, who organized mass voting against players the streamers did not like.

The conclusion was that Valve eventually 'neutered' the voting feature, meaning making it completely worthless.


It's same for what you are suggesting. I mean even the dimmest people eventually realize they have been shadow-banned, for example. With Tier bar getting decreased despite wins will make people realize they have been voted against, and we can only imagine what disgusting behaviors they are going to show off.



Now, I can hear you "well, we can set certain limits/or qualification and blahblahblah..." But in reality none of those things is going to prevent the voting system from restless abuses. If you set bar too high, people will complain that the feature is useless against actual bad people. If bar is too low, then the feature will be abused way too much. Only certain thing that voting feature WILL BRING (NOT MIGHT) is damaged and more toxic community that Dota 2 has right now.

Or it will bring complete destruction of the game, just like how Heroes of Newerth went.

With such low population, MWO really cannot afford to be used as an lab rat for testing ideas that are already proven as complete failure.


For those who refuse to listen and acknowledge history are doomed to repeat the mistakes and meet destruction, and such fate would be marked as deserved.

[Vellron2005]

A popularity contest for player tier ranking is one of the stupidest ideas I have ever heard. It would never be based on actual skill, but on somebody's ego and personal preferences. LRM boats would be stuck in T5, and your teammates and people you like outside of the game, would get upvotes.

The downtrodden would get beaten down even more, and NOBODY new would ever stay in the game longer than a few matches.

It would quickly turn the game into a very closed, limited, invite-only ego-fest.

Seriously, WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?! What's wit all the egotism and xenophobia?

The people who are suggesting and supporting this idea need to grow up, move past their own egos, and accept a simple truth:

The ONLY way to improve the MM is to..

- dun dun dun -

Advertise the game and GET MORE PEOPLE PLAYING!

An MMO type game cannot have quality matches if it is played by a few thousand of the same people at any one given time!

[Tarogato]

The Lighthouse, on 15 November 2017 - 12:28 AM, said:

You truly have not seen how low humans can go. You really should had played games like Dota 2 and see how nasty human nature is.


So, in Dota 2 we had 'communicate' ban, a.k.a mute ban. [...]

You really think this community is as toxic and vindictive as Dota? Dota and LoL are often cited as two of the most toxic playerbases in gaming.

[The6thMessenger]

Tarogato, on 15 November 2017 - 12:56 AM, said:

You really think this community is as toxic and vindictive as Dota? Dota and LoL are often cited as two of the most toxic playerbases in gaming.

While it's true that playerbase seems to be a lot less salty, but it's concerning what way we could pave with this system. It maybe not toxic or not vindictive now, but what if it happens later? We are after all humans, the same component.

[Bilbo999]

Mcgral18, on 14 November 2017 - 10:02 AM, said:

Zero Sum


Top x percentage is Tier 1, not an EXP bar where everyone who isn't a Top Tier Terribad can become Tier 1 if they play enough.


That alone would help filter with the current MM system, and relief valves if population becomes an issue.
It doesn't have to be fancy, it just has to do a better job

We had elo for a long time. It did exactly what you ask for except the top x percentage could never get a game. When they did get a game, they complained about the team the wound up on . So now we have this, and the top x percent can get a game but they still hate all their team mates. Such is life.

[The Lighthouse]

Tarogato, on 15 November 2017 - 12:56 AM, said:

You really think this community is as toxic and vindictive as Dota? Dota and LoL are often cited as two of the most toxic playerbases in gaming.

Recently there was some noises regarding a member who was perma-banned and he posted with alt-account, and there were some issues.

You have to realize that it is really environment that makes people toxic, not because the people were toxic from start.

The fact that this community's average age is higher than other communities does contribute mature-ness, but the main reason why we have not seen so many toxic issues is that the game itself does try its absolute best to not create incentive for growing toxicity, one thing PGI has been done exceptionally (or accidentally) well.

Like current weird Tier system instead of PSR (ELO) system other games have. Because unlike many other competitive players/developers who do not understand ELO system, which is really only for 1v1 games, is just not going to work for team-based games, PGI implemented TSR system, which is based on player performance, not win/loss ratio.

Right now everyone is cool and feels ok because with current system, even if your team is bad and loses the game, you could still maintain your Tier rating or even gain the rating if you play really well, so the frustration from influenced by bad players is extremely small compared to other games.

However, say, if PGI decides to implement PSR system, which is based on win/loss ratio, you WILL see hell. People are already complaining about bad matchmaking, terrible teammates and so forth. And now those horrible things would affect my PSR now?

You will going to see a lot of resentful players throwing tantrum everywhere. You will see people griefing to drag down other people's PSR, for instance.

There are a lot of potential trolls among players, it is just that environment does not allow them to grow like other games do. However, I am fully confident that the community WILL get worse if ideal environment is made. Just like Heroes of Newerth did.


Yeah, a looooonnng time ago, HoN did not have PSR system for a long time. As an old dota player said "You don't see that silly numbers and determine who is good or who is bad. You go in-game, pick hero and prove your worth there." I would not say HoN community at that time was wonderful, but certainly far better than later HoN community or current Dota 2 community.

Finally, S2 Games got tired of players' whining about unable to boast how great they are playing the game, so the PSR was introduced. Typical ELO system.

It did not take that long for the community to go absolutely rotten. Got even worse when S2 Games changed its business model and went to F2P. And then it was rapid downhill until Dota 2 came out, which killed HoN.