67 replies to this topic

[Bandilly]

I don't like using them myself, but I have seen them used quite effectively. Definitely takes a a dedicated build to properly use, in other words don't just slap some on as an extra weapon.

[ANOM O MECH]

They need a velocity buff to make them less garbage.

[Shifty McSwift]

IDK, I have seen them plink pathetically in situations where direct fire would just be outright better, and I have also seen them shred targets to pieces, in some really weird and unexpected locations too, like crimson straight tunnel/under platform or in HPG basement.

They really just seem like more complicated/harder to master LRMs, being all about that range and lack of need for direct LOS, seems like they at least need a decent speed mech to maintain effective range.

[Armored Yokai]

Atms are pretty strong when you mount 3 of them and brawl with them

[N a p e s]

Love dual ATM12 builds and most of all the Mad Dog Prime with missile cooldown and velocity quirks.

Probably one of my most played mechs since the new-tech dropped. Sure, thye spread damage, require a lock and have a minimum range but trying to juggle all that makes for some fun games with a potential for awesome rewards.

Not meta, but definitely fun.

[Xavori]

Shifty McSwift, on 16 November 2017 - 07:06 AM, said:

IDK, I have seen them plink pathetically in situations where direct fire would just be outright better, and I have also seen them shred targets to pieces, in some really weird and unexpected locations too, like crimson straight tunnel/under platform or in HPG basement.

They really just seem like more complicated/harder to master LRMs, being all about that range and lack of need for direct LOS, seems like they at least need a decent speed mech to maintain effective range.

Actually, HPG is where they shine the most. They have the perfect flight path for hitting targets up top (and not hitting the ceiling) when you are one level down, and you can use them in the basement as well because of that fairly flat flight path.

[sharknoise]

armyunit, on 15 November 2017 - 08:56 PM, said:

They'd been out for quite awhile now, and PGI has been leaving them alone balance-wise for several patches now if I'm not mistaken.

They were nerfed in October (previous patch). Not the biggest nerf ever, but I still felt in my Shadowcat. It's like my average damage fell by 30%. Even if it's a sudden long streak of bad games, lock degree nerf just made things boring. It forces the player to always face the enemy. Before the patch there was more freedom to use mech's speed and agility in order to survive in the desired range.

https://mwomercs.com...37-18-oct-2017/

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Missile Lock

• The maximum angle at which Missile Lock can be retained after the reticle has drifted from the locked opponent has been reduced. Weapon Lock will now be lost at 25 degrees, instead of the previous 45 degree value.

Missile Lock Design Notes: This global change to the Missile Lock threshold has been implemented as a result of a number of balance issues that stemmed from its previous behavior.[/color]
• For LRMs, we want to increase the amount of focus needed to maintained sustained fire with the weapon.[/color]
• For Streak SRMs, we want to increase the difficulty of maintaining a weapons lock at close range, making it a bit easier for lighter, more mobile 'Mechs to break the lock.[/color]
• For ATMs, we want to greatly diminish the ability for 'Mechs to work around the shallow weapon arc by being able to 'curve' missiles around environmental obstructions while still maintaining their lock at close ranges, with minimal threat of return fire.[/color]

ATM 3 and ATM 6
• Spread increased to 3.2 (from 3).

ATM 9 and ATM 12
• Spread increased to 3.7 (from 3.5).

Edited by sharknoise, 16 November 2017 - 07:39 AM.

[Alkabides]

I used to be very pro-ATM at first, that damage at close range is tough to resist. But, I've realized most fights end up being very close encounters to where a lot of the time I couldn't use them because of the minimum range issue. This is a hard lesson learned in fp scouting. They also become fairly useless in the presence of ams.

[N a p e s]

Alkabides, on 16 November 2017 - 07:45 AM, said:

I used to be very pro-ATM at first, that damage at close range is tough to resist. But, I've realized most fights end up being very close encounters to where a lot of the time I couldn't use them because of the minimum range issue. This is a hard lesson learned in fp scouting. They also become fairly useless in the presence of ams.

Totally one of the things that makes them interesting to play, it's all about staying in that range bracket for maximum damage potential.

[Moira]

Humdidum ! =)

I love ATM's more than ever... so much that I might change my unit name to [ATMs] =P its currently [LURM]. They are indeed little tricky to use, but when you finally learn them and pair with med/er small lasers you can drop some neat 90+ alphas with mech like MADCAT. Sure they have draw backs, but you can dump fire those and skill tree helps are on the ranges.

If im using ATM's ill always fit light TAG with em to get deal the most. Light TAGs range is good indicator that you are in 2-3 damage range and can just fire away and see how well those work. Ofcourse you can use em as LRMs, but needs little trickery to fire em properly to get that high raising arc.

I would love to see ATMs to be little faster and have more HPs, but they are indeed just fine now - in my mind.

[Khobai]

ATMs have a number of issues

first theyre too susceptible to AMS. ATMs need a +50% missile health increase.

secondly ATMs should have NO MIN RANGE. because if ATMs had ammo switching they wouldnt have a min range. you could just switch to the short range ammo and not have a min range. so it makes no sense to punish ATMs just because PGI couldnt add ammo switching.

ATMs should have no min range but their damage should also be changed to a flat 2 damage at all ranges. ATM max range should also be 810m, so LRMs retain a range advantage.

ATMs are supposed to be a versatile jack-of-all trades weapon system. theyre not supposed to be a horribly niche 120m-270m weapon system. thats not in the spirit of the weapon at all.

Edited by Khobai, 16 November 2017 - 08:24 AM.

[Trissila]

N a p e s, on 16 November 2017 - 08:17 AM, said:

Totally one of the things that makes them interesting to play, it's all about staying in that range bracket for maximum damage potential.

Problem being that you don't control that, really.

The effective range is from 120 meters to 270 meters, a 150-meter window. Thing is, once you've closed the gap to 270 meters, you're already most of the way in. Assuming you come to a dead halt the moment you hit 270 and fire from there, the target only has to clear another 150 before your damage drops off a cliff.

And any competently-built 'mech moves at least 70 KPH. Even many assaults.

So once you hit optimal firing range, you've got about two seconds before the target gets in under your minimum and starts tearing your face off with nothing you can do about it, because reverse is slower than forward in all cases, even if you're substantially out-tonned.

Moira, on 16 November 2017 - 08:20 AM, said:

If im using ATM's ill always fit light TAG with em to get deal the most. Light TAGs range is good indicator that you are in 2-3 damage range and can just fire away and see how well those work. Ofcourse you can use em as LRMs, but needs little trickery to fire em properly to get that high raising arc.

See, they're not even worth using at the 2 damage range. An ATM-12 weighs 7 tons, takes 5 crits, and deals 24 damage at 2-damage range. An LRM-20 weighs 5 tons, takes 4 crits, and deals 20 damage. It also has twice as much ammo per ton (WAY more damage potential) and fires 8 more missiles per salvo to be more AMS-resistant, and has a shorter cooldown (4.60 compared to the ATM's 5 seconds). Even the Artemis version of the LRM-20 is 6 tons/5 crits, freeing up a ton per launcher equipped. First launcher is free TAG, second is free BAP, and every launcher after that is another ton of missiles or another medium laser.

Really, in order to justifying bringing ATMs you have to be shooting them in the 3-damage window, which as I said is an incredibly risky window to be in.

Edited by Trissila, 16 November 2017 - 09:51 AM.

[N a p e s]

Trissila, on 16 November 2017 - 09:37 AM, said:

Problem being that you don't control that, really.

The effective range is from 120 meters to 270 meters, a 150-meter window. Thing is, once you've closed the gap to 270 meters, you're already most of the way in. Assuming you come to a dead halt the moment you hit 270 and fire from there, the target only has to clear another 150 before your damage drops off a cliff.

And any competently-built 'mech moves at least 70 KPH. Even many assaults.

So once you hit optimal firing range, you've got about two seconds before the target gets in under your minimum and starts tearing your face off with nothing you can do about it, because reverse is slower than forward in all cases, even if you're substantially out-tonned.

I don't see that as a problem, I see that as the challenge of maximizing the use of this weapon. Your point is valid and it can totally get you in trouble in a fight but, to me, trying to maintain that range is what makes the weapon fun even if it's also what makes it less good.

Edited by N a p e s, 16 November 2017 - 10:19 AM.

[Khobai]

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An ATM-12 weighs 7 tons, takes 5 crits, and deals 24 damage at 2-damage range. An LRM-20 weighs 5 tons, takes 4 crits, and deals 20 damage.

The funny thing is LRMs are actually better under 120m than ATMs which makes NO SENSE AT ALL. LRMs still do like half damage at that range while ATMs do NOTHING.

ATMs at a flat 2 damage at all ranges would be fine if they removed the min range, because they would still outperform LRMs under 270m.

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I don't see that as a problem, I see that as the challenge of maximizing the use this weapon

The problem is that ATMs are supposed to be a versatile and capable weapon at all ranges.

Theyre not supposed to be a 120m-270m niche weapon

Theyre supposed to be useful at every range including under 120m

And LRMs certainly should not be better than ATMs under 120m

Its not in the spirit of the weapon for it to only be good in a narrow range band. Its like if MRMs which are supposed to be a medium range weapon were only good at pointblank range. oh wait.

Edited by Khobai, 16 November 2017 - 10:25 AM.

[N a p e s]

Khobai, on 16 November 2017 - 10:18 AM, said:

The problem is that ATMs are supposed to be a versatile and capable weapon at all ranges.

Theyre not supposed to be a 120m-270m niche weapon

Theyre supposed to be useful at every range including under 120m

And LRMs certainly should not be better than ATMs under 120m

Ya, I get that too. I'm not advocating against it either. If the plan was to make damage fall linearly off from 120 to 0 m, I certainly wouldn't oppose it and it would make them fit more appropriately into their intended role. All I'm saying is that I have fun with their current implementation.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Khobai, on 16 November 2017 - 10:18 AM, said:

The problem is that ATMs are supposed to be a versatile and capable weapon at all ranges.

Theyre not supposed to be a 120m-270m niche weapon

Theyre supposed to be useful at every range including under 120m

I think it would have been ok if they'd do 1 damage in below 120 range. Plain 2 damage at all ranges is nothing special and will certainly remove that sweet 'get rekt' feeling from them.

[Khobai]

yeah I mean either 2 damage at all ranges with no min range at all -OR- 3/2/1 damage with linear damage dropoff under 120m would probably work fine for fixing ATMs at short range.


but theres also the long range application of ATMs that needs to be addressed

because lets face it, ATMs and LRMs are both pretty useless at long range

something needs to be done to help make guided missiles connect at longer ranges


ECM shouldnt grant stealth. Missile velocity probably needs to be massively increased for both ATMs and LRMs. Artemis could use a major buff. And indirect missile fire probably needs to be limited to TAG/NARCd targets only.

But I think we also need destructible terrain to help missiles. A lot of the rocks/buildings should be destructible so missiles can eventually punch through it to hit their targets. All the invincible cover is part of the problem. I mean MW3 had destructible terrain almost 20 years ago... why doesnt MWO? They need to make a pass on every map and make as many things destructible as they can.

Edited by Khobai, 16 November 2017 - 10:34 AM.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Khobai, on 16 November 2017 - 10:28 AM, said:

something needs to be done to help make guided missiles connect at longer ranges

Of course. They should be fire-and-forget, not fire-and-lose-locks-to-do-no-damage.

[Bigbacon]

can we get faster NARC rounds and higher HP narc rounds while at it?

[Khobai]

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Of course. They should be fire-and-forget, not fire-and-lose-locks-to-do-no-damage.

Im not sure we need to remove all skill from using missiles though.

Instead I think we need to remove how easy it is to counter missiles and make it require more skill to counter missiles

You shouldnt just be able to hide behind an invincible rock or tree. Thats stupid. The rock/tree should only give you a limited amount of protection before its destroyed.

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can we get faster NARC rounds and higher HP narc rounds while at it?

They should also make NARC rounds explode for 6-8 damage when their duration expires.

Basically combine regular NARC and the NARC explosive pod into one ammo type.

People might be more inclined to use NARC if it actually did some damage.

Edited by Khobai, 16 November 2017 - 10:44 AM.