98 replies to this topic

[Grus]

DjPush, on 16 November 2017 - 09:29 PM, said:

With the engine decoupling and nerfs to mobility, the Atlas, Direwolf, Highlander, Banshee, Annihilator and Executioner are just 3D models in the mechbay (I'm sure there are others but I don't feel like naming them all). They don't stand a chance on the battlefield. Kind of sad considering I cut my teeth in this game piloting the Atlas. I have always enjoyed stomping around in large mechs with weapons that decimate anything in front of them. Now, most of these mechs are laughable. Easy targets with no ability to turn, or torso twist. Even with a full mobility tree, they are just to cumbersome to compete.

Wat?

Seriously?

Then you're not using them correctly. The firepower and durability they can bring to a firefight is significant. Try using them as a force multiplier In a push or area denial in a poke game. Just make sure you have med or light backup... because a lone assault is a dead assalt.

[Potatomasher69]

I play lots of IS assaults. It seems common semse to me to say that ghost heat is what is making things difficult for assaults. It is the class that has sacrificed speed and agility for armor and guns. Some Assaults can take 6+ PPCs, but only fire two at a time, like a light which can also take two PPCs. So assaults chain fire them, which rewards faster enemies as they have time to hide and maintaining good aim to chain fire is difficult in a mech with poor agility. So what you want is all the alpha strike you can get while staying fast enough to hide before large slow mechs can chain fire a large volley. That large alpha is currently laser vomit.

Why are you doing better on lights? Well, it's harder to draw on them with lasers.

Why are assaults with LURMs getting more popular? Well it's because assaults might as well have something to chain fire at you that might hit you on the other side of the ridge you are hugging. Especially since light mechs are the only ones safe in the open.

See connection?

[Novakaine]

Join the Assault Lurm Club for Men.
And the Ladies are always invited.
Contribute to the fight before you die.

[Nicodemus Rosse]

I'd like to see the Skill Tree leveraged to give 'Mechs better Role Warfare profiles, on a chassis-by-chassis basis, but only in a few standardized ways. I think that this would help punch up the ability of Assaults to, well, Assault, and also give players an incentive to make the most of the strengths of each variant. The standardized options I'm talking about would be something like:

Recon/Forward Observer: Sensor tree node bonuses are larger. Add one like Advanced Zoom, but instead it lets ALL of the 'Mechs currently red-flagged in your view show up on your team's minimap, not just one you have locked. Add another node, maybe "Priority Strike," that lets you ignore the team-based cooldown on air/arty strikes, so your strike cooldown is tracked individually.
Examples: Locust, Raven, most Mist Lynx and Cicada variants, IFR-Prime, EBJ-B.

Tank/Brawler/Pusher: Armor/Structure node bonuses are larger. Torso speed/pitch/yaw and anchor turn bonuses are larger and torso nodes aren't percentage based, just flat bonuses.
Examples: UrbanMech, Centurion, Hunchback, Wolverine, BSW-L1, Cataphract, Dragon, Orion, Atlas, BattleMaster, Highlander, King Crab, Executioner, Dire Wolf, Kodiak.

Skirmisher (snipers, flankers, harassers): Acceleration/deceleration and anchor turn nodes are flat bonuses, not percentages, Hill Climb bonus is larger; weapon range, velocity, and sensor paperdoll info acquisition node bonuses are bigger.
Examples: Panther, Wolfhound, Commando, LCT-PB, Firestarter, Javelin, Jenner, Enforcer, Shadow Hawk, HBK-GI, Grasshopper, Victor, Piranha, Arctic Cheetah, Javelin IIC, MLX-C, MLX-D, MLX-G, Ice Ferret, Viper, Shadow Cat, Arctic Wolf, Stormcrow, Linebacker, Hellbringer, Summoner, Gargoyle, Warhawk.

Fire Support: Ammo storage nodes give bigger bonuses, weapon range/cooldown/heat gen nodes slightly better, sensor range and target decay nodes give bigger bonuses.
Examples: Most Clan 'Mechs not already listed (because let's face it their style is stand-off combat, not fancy moves, so they're all more or less fire support designs) plus the Blackjack, Kintaro, Trebuchet, Catapult, JagerMech, Rifleman, Archer, Awesome, Stalker.

General Purpose: Buffed bonuses from structure nodes, to improve battlefield life and make them more appealing for sub-85 ton variants. First 1-2 of each node that you can take repeatedly (like Cool Run, Hill Climb, Range, Velocity, etc.) in any tree also provides 1.5-2 times the current benefit, so you're rewarded for covering a lot of bases rather than maximizing one tree.
Examples: Most 'Mechs not already listed, plus the Cougar, Nova, Huntsman, and Timber Wolf on the Clan side.

Ideally every 'Mech should be labeled in the store and Mechlab, so you know which version of the Skill Tree you'll get. It'd also potentially make shopping easier—if you know you like playing well-rounded variants, go for the ones with the G.P. tag, but if you really want a sniper look for 'Mechs with the Skirmisher tag.

[Edit: In case it's not clear, each variant would only get ONE of these labels.]

Edited by Nicodemus Rosse, 17 November 2017 - 03:25 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Why are assaults with LURMs getting more popular?

because assaults on the frontlines die like little b*tches because they cant torso twist

[Anjian]

The ability of the Assault to boat weapons and soak up the heat was one of the reasons of their dominance in the pre Ghost Heat era. Ghost heat took that away. The limitations posed by Ghost Heat means mediums and heavies could alpha the same amount of weapons as the assault without trespassing into ghost heat. This also led to the heavy dominant era.

The assaults now stay on the back because they are either LRMers, or they are snipers (PPC-Gauss), long on range but not on DPS. The only exception would be assaults boating AC/UAC/CUAC ballistics which can perform both forward and back positions well.

[ocular tb]

For assaults to live longer they need to not take so much damage so fast. Things that I would like to see implemented that I think would help slow the game down and make assaults more survivable would be:

1. Fix the convergence issue. Someway, somehow PGI needs to find a way to reinstate delayed convergence or find another alternative (convergence on sensor lock seems reasonable).

2. Revamp the heat scale so that heat is actually a factor for all mechs with mech/pilot ability being affected at different thresholds. This would slow down the amount of damage being delivered due to not being able to alpha as often or at all without significant penalties such as loss of convergence, heat sink loss, ammo explosions, component loss, and death. There is so much potential here that it's a shame that PGI doesn't put more effort into heat scale and effects.

3. Go back to 8v8. I think with less mechs on the maps there would be more room to move around. We already see this today once a few mechs on each team die. Players are able to move around more freely and things get more interesting and the game plays better. This might not be needed if the first two issues are resolved. However, I'd still like to try it because I think it would make for better gameplay regardless.

I'm not opposed to giving assaults some mobility and armor quirks back but I think we'd just be ignoring the actual problems. Lets try something different and try fixing some of the core mechanics of the game instead.

[Khobai]

Quote

The ability of the Assault to boat weapons and soak up the heat was one of the reasons of their dominance in the pre Ghost Heat era. Ghost heat took that away. The limitations posed by Ghost Heat means mediums and heavies could alpha the same amount of weapons as the assault without trespassing into ghost heat. This also led to the heavy dominant era.

Yeah but assaults shouldnt be dominant. Neither should heavies.

All four weight classes should be equally powerful and equally represented.

Right now heavies are too good they need to be knocked down a peg. Reduce heavy firepower and assault firepower will be exactly where it needs to be: better than heavy firepower.

Increasing assault firepower isnt a solution because that just makes TTK shorter in a game where TTK is already too short.

Quote

Go back to 8v8.

this is an option as well. assault armor mattered more in 8v8 than in 12v12. because there was less concentrated damage flying around.

Edited by Khobai, 18 November 2017 - 11:32 PM.

[lazorbeamz]

Remove stupid ballistic ghost heat with ac 10, 20.

[xVLFBERHxT]

My Dire Wolf's disagree.

[Sjorpha]

The current pattern seems to be that clan assaults are mostly fine, MK2, MAD2C, Dire wolf, SNV and kodiak are all very good at least.

IS assaults have suffered a lot from all the quirk nerfs and aren't competitive, they just need to have very strong quirks unless IS tech gets balanced, which seems unlikely at this point, seems PGI has decided that IS tech must be left inferior for some dumb reason.

Removing/reducing ghost heat on IS heavy ballistics, large lasers and PPCs would help a lot too.

[Weeny Machine]

DjPush, on 16 November 2017 - 09:29 PM, said:

With the engine decoupling and nerfs to mobility, the Atlas, Direwolf, Highlander, Banshee, Annihilator and Executioner are just 3D models in the mechbay (I'm sure there are others but I don't feel like naming them all). They don't stand a chance on the battlefield. Kind of sad considering I cut my teeth in this game piloting the Atlas. I have always enjoyed stomping around in large mechs with weapons that decimate anything in front of them. Now, most of these mechs are laughable. Easy targets with no ability to turn, or torso twist. Even with a full mobility tree, they are just to cumbersome to compete.

It also works the other way around. Most 85t and heavies are so nimble that it is next to impossible for lights to get uptime on them outside of their firing arc - which is great when you have paper armour.

If you ask me, both ends of the spectrum, lights, especially 35t, and 90-100t assaults, are in deep water.

Edited by Bush Hopper, 19 November 2017 - 07:23 AM.

[Clydewinder]

Xavori, on 17 November 2017 - 07:35 AM, said:

Every problem in the game vs tabletop comes down to the fact that MWO doesn't use dice roll for hits (or alternatively, the only thing that makes TT playable is that mech pilots suck at their jobs and/or don't have the kinds of targeting computers the US military has had for 40 years now)

Since cone of fire is pretty much a non-starter since it removes pilot skill, you have to do something else to offset the fact that even the potatoes of the MWO world are better than even the Black Widow in tabletop. That something is armor.

Assaults need to double their armor at least. Every. Single. One. Of. Them. Some, need more than that (coughAtlasDireWolfcough). When you see an assault on the battlefield, it should be scary. Not because it's carrying more weapons than other mechs (that was kinda the role that heavies played), but because it's just not going to want to die. It's going to be this great big pile of metal that the rest of the team can hide behind on a push.

And can you imagine Kodiak's and Atlas....uh...es?...Atlasi?...Atl? leading a charge instead of trying to peek and poke and hide behind the Locusts? It would be a lot more fun.

With doubled armor, an overheated Atlas will live 4 seconds instead of 2 while shut down.

[Revis Volek]

JediPanther, on 16 November 2017 - 11:56 PM, said:

Atlas is done. Even with max survival, std or lfe 350 and as many fire power nodes for heat gen it sucks. I do far better in the locust than atlas by a very far margin. The only atlas I see used are the ddc for its ecm or the L for the missiles. It can't move or torso twist at all compared to clans. 68 arm armor but you don't have the twist speed to use it.

Kgc is also slow as crap with the torso twist. Ghost heat means you can't fire both ac 20s but don't worry the clans can fire both lbx 20s and dual heavy guass just fine. I almost laugh when I see dire whales. They are easy targets. Hbrs and line backers are more worrisome.

i've quit the game until the piranha comes out. I didn't buy any pack of it because I'd rather see how a mech works in game first and not believe the ngng hype video the day before it drops.

Clans dont have dual hvy gauss (or hvy gauss at all) and IS can fire dual LBX20 as well.



Your argument and reason for quitting are beased on incorrect information. Bravo sir.

Edited by Revis Volek, 19 November 2017 - 08:09 AM.

[Jun Watarase]

>this thread

The main issue with slow assaults is that they cannot reverse quickly enough behind cover to cool down, which means they get focused fired more. I mean, try trading with ER MLs in a Kodiak and see what happens. That and most assaults cant run sufficient DHS to make energy boats work effectively.

So that pretty much forces you to boat ballistics on slow assaults, since if you are going to be exposed for a long time, you need to be able to kill whatever is shooting at you ASAP.

Unfortunately, the atlas and some other assaults (highlanders, banshees, etc) cant do this which means they suck. Theres a reason why the only KDK/Annihilators that you see units bring in FP are the ballistic boat ones.

[Chados]

MCII-1 and Deathstrike are the only 90-ton class assaults I run anymore. ANH-2A is good but super cumbersome and can’t twist off damage, Banshees are too fragile for their lack of mobility, I own no Atlases, and my Executioner is a joke because it has less pod space than a 65 ton Ebon Jaguar.

I like the 80-85 ton assaults much more. Victors, Zeuses, and Warhawks. I don’t like the Marauder IIC as much but the Scorch is still hands down the most dangerous Clan assault, in my opinion. I’m more concerned about taking on an LB20/ASRM Scorch 1V1 than a gauss/PPC Deathstrike. Victors still have mobility and the 9A1 is legit thanks to the extra ballistic slots, the machine gun buffs, and the 9K’s laser fist that it got. Civil War tech in the form of the MRM and LFE have helped the Zeus. And the Nanuq Warhawk has wrecked face since it first dropped, I really like the dual uAC10 arm. The MCII at least has the mobility.

[C E Dwyer]

hmm seems strange that wargamming don't have respawn in tanks and ships, get it right and only one respawn in planes.

Most games go the distance..

Yet here..

One can only assume people are wanting it because they're just plain bad at PvP or want to farm things and screw how bad it will make the game...

[Jun Watarase]

Case in point :

KDK-1 with 6x MPL ad 1x UAC 20 : http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2d475ca219b6ba3

KDK-3 with 2x UAC 10 and 2x UAC 5 : http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c37398b75b4f537

Not 100% optimal, for basic comparison purposes only.

The KDK-3 has shield arms, has a longer range, is more heat efficient, needs less SP for it's skill tree and a few seconds of fire from it will seriously hurt most mechs. The KDK-1 wont be able to cool down fast enough to be relevant.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Jun Watarase, on 19 November 2017 - 09:53 AM, said:

KDK-1 with 6x MPL ad 1x UAC 20 : http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2d475ca219b6ba3

KDK-3 with 2x UAC 10 and 2x UAC 5 : http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c37398b75b4f537

The KDK-3 has shield arms, has a longer range, is more heat efficient, needs less SP for it's skill tree and a few seconds of fire from it will seriously hurt most mechs. The KDK-1 wont be able to cool down fast enough to be relevant.

That KDK-1 would be cooler & easier to run with an LB20X in place of the UAC20, at least you get a single shot & 100% more velocity. Swap to good old Gauss instead to run even cooler, much cooler than those UACs once you start double tapping.

As for the skill argument, you don't need anything for the LBX or Gauss, you have more than enough ammo, velocity & range on them already. So, all other things equal, it's max velocity vs max laser duration, with Heat Gen being nice for both.

Max velocity takes 22 nodes with no wasted nodes (no High Explosive or Gauss Charge), with a bonus Mag Cap on the way. That 2nd Mag Cap takes it up to 28 nodes.

Max Laser Duration takes 18 nodes, if you jump right down the middle. However, more likely you'll go down the sides for the Heat Gen nodes, taking you up to 26 nodes. If you really wanted, you could pick up all the velocity nodes for a total of 29, then add a Mag Cap for a total of 30.

Now I prefer the KDK-3, that and the Spirit Bear are the only ones I still drop with (albeit increasingly less often). However the KDK-3 is a special case for Kodiaks, the rest of them don't really want (or need) face time. RNG can always screw you over after only 30 damage, too.

[Xavori]

Cathy, on 19 November 2017 - 09:45 AM, said:

hmm seems strange that wargamming don't have respawn in tanks and ships, get it right and only one respawn in planes.

Most games go the distance..

Yet here..

One can only assume people are wanting it because they're just plain bad at PvP or want to farm things and screw how bad it will make the game...

respawn helps a lot in low pop games because all matches run the full length. More time playing, less time looking for match (getting to 8v8 would help this as well).

More than that, this game snowballs really badly. A 2-3 mech advantage can usually become a 12-3 or worse stomp. Respawns limit that to a point. You don't see it as much in WoT because the TTK is so much longer (well, normally).

Respawns also raise player morale. It's annoying to to sit around watching 10 minutes of a match when you got splattered early. It's annoying to watch 1 guy hide in a corner because he's worried about his K/D ratio. And so on.