8 replies to this topic

[ScorpionNinja]

Why PGI?

Spider-5V: is 30 tons with 12 jumpjets pushing it through the air.
Yet only has a 104.1m jump distance

Viper is 40 tons and with only 8 jumpjets.
Yet it has 105m jump distance.


WTF???

Edited by ScorpionNinja, 18 November 2017 - 11:19 AM.

[Airu]

IMO Spider 5V should get jump jet lift speed, initial burst and forward thrust quirks. It is the weakest mech in the game in terms of fire power, it should at least excel in something.
It will never be as mobile as a locust, but it could be the best jumping mech in the game, which according to lore it was suppose to be.

[Koniving]

The issue is that medium mechs have the strongest "push" in their jumpjets.

Lights have the weakest push BUT are so light it works. Heavies and most assaults nearly identical push... but the effect of that push against an 85 ton mech compared to a 60 ton mech are iffy at best. The 90 to 100 ton assaults have their own push but it isn't really enough to get past "Hover Jets."

[Tezcatli]

Koniving, on 18 November 2017 - 10:59 PM, said:

The issue is that medium mechs have the strongest "push" in their jumpjets.

Lights have the weakest push BUT are so light it works. Heavies and most assaults nearly identical push... but the effect of that push against an 85 ton mech compared to a 60 ton mech are iffy at best. The 90 to 100 ton assaults have their own push but it isn't really enough to get past "Hover Jets."

Then why do they weigh exactly the same? Is there a lore explanation or even a real world explanation why two jets of identical weight would have differing performance? I wouldn't think they'd knowingly make them inferior despite being the same weight and slot requirement.

[Koniving]

Tezcatli, on 18 November 2017 - 11:52 PM, said:

Then why do they weigh exactly the same? Is there a lore explanation or even a real world explanation why two jets of identical weight would have differing performance? I wouldn't think they'd knowingly make them inferior despite being the same weight and slot requirement.

There is no lore explanation for it.
Though technically there's something around 40 brand names of jumpjets...

PGI created 5 classes of jumpjet. Three classes weigh half a ton, one weighs a ton, and the last weighs two tons.

The lights up to 30 tons get one class. 35 to 50 tons gets another. 55 to 65? 70? gets another. Then 70 or 75 to 85 tons get the fourth, and 90 to 100 tons gets the last.

Lights tend to be permitted to carry a ridiculous amount of jumpjets. 35 tonners might get around 5, but most mediums get 3 with just a couple getting 7.

And those getting 7 still don't jump ~that~ well.

(In fact, 12 jumpjets is pretty much non-canon. It's not even possible in the tabletop rules.)

PGI is giving them insane thrust that would launch a Crysis player into orbit, much like Giants in Skyrim would.
However, EVERY map has 2.7 to 3x Earth's gravity because without that, players would be suspended in the air for quite a long time after running out of thrust fuel due to momentum. Despite that being Realistic, testers said it felt weird to be floating as you decelerate, come to a near stop, and then start to build up speed into a fall.

So we have some crazy stupid **** because of that.

For the actual canon values... The distances mentioned in lore are horizontal jump distances. In actuality... the first JJ in tabletop jumps you one level high (12 meters) and each sequential jumpjet gives you another half level (6 meters). So 12 jumpjets would get you 12 + (11*6) = 78 meters maximum height + (12*30) 360 meters maximum horizontal movement.

Spiders actually have 8, so 12+(7*6) = 54 meters maximum height and (8*30) 240 meters horizontal movement. Which is still pretty much the most amazing thing in Battletech. It is also worth noting: Spiders are actually 7.3 meters tall, not 10.3 meters tall... but little about MWO's scales are correct. (In fact, Spiders are coffins because there is no possible way to eject and one enters from the back and has to climb into a hatch, legs first then duck then tuck your head under. Also no seat to sit on; you stand.

Of course to expand on that, the Atlas is between 13 and 14 meters tall with the most common height being between 13.6 and 13.8, though terrified "narrator" characters have exaggerated it to over 15 meters tall, and in one case, 27 meters.

To get that extreme... Open this link. http://www.mrinitial...compsizes.xhtml
Now put in this size code.
Figure 1|male|182.9_Figure 2|male|2700
Yeah, btw the same fictional narrator supposed the "fat ****" inside probably had a fully outfitted kitchen in its belly.

(Which you can do, its 3 tons but its vehicles only).

The tallest mech until sometime after 3065 (because at that point I stop caring) is 14.4 meters, the Executioner. Which is the tallest mech in MWO, but if MWO's Atlas is 17.6 meters, yeah...

(Now don't think that means all lights should be smaller, the Mist Lynx in MWO is something like 8 meters, in Bt it's over 11 meters... but in BT, things with endo steel structure are much larger than those without, in part due to much bigger bones and in part to accomodate the larger, heavier, bulkier equipment one could have. We'd have other issues with strict lore adherence, too, for example no one would ever "change" structure, period, and armor changes are expensive and not even royalty has them custom outfitted onto their personal machines until 30 years after their re-invention.. there's 6 endo steel facilities in the IS after 3060, with 2 of them in Clan control, 3 in Comstar control and NOT shared with the rest of the IS, and 1 in Marik space. The Clans have 8 in their homeworlds, though it takes half a year to travel from Clan space to IS space which means resupplies of endo would take at least 6 months, so Timber Wolves were rarely used.. etc. The IS endo is pretty much inferior so the Clans don't really use it, they just hold the two space-station facilities.)

Also Long Toms are 30 ton cannons that fire 400 lb projectiles. MWO would have us believe that Long Toms do this
(which their radius is half MWO's radius, and instead of 1360 damage maximum per mech, the average damage to a mech is 30 near the epicenter with 5 shots per ton, and it is not nuclear. Long Tom's maximum damage potential is 270 damage, and times 2 to counter for 2x armor/structure, would be 540... across the entire area. Yet MWO would have us believe that the AC/20 is firing a 285 lb projectile... when BT's ammo count is also 5 per ton, not 7 per ton which would be a 400 lb projectile just like the Long Tom... except AC/20s have 5 casssettes [magazines] of 2 to 100 shots per magazine with, again, 5 of them per ton. And only the Ebon Jaguar has the 2 shot per magazine 203mm UAC/20. The terrible range of AC/20s is the recoil and the sheer number of shots fired to achieve 20 damage; with Victors firing 30mm AC/20s called Pontiac 100, aptly named because there's 100 shells per cassette, which fires "in two to three rapid blinks of the eye" and takes 3 to 7 seconds to reload, depending on if using the main port [lock arm in upward position for 3 seconds, can't move it, cassette feeds from right torso, through interior of shoulder, exits right bicep and inserts into port on top rear of right forearm. If that method is damaged, then the left arm removes the cassette from a secondary port in the right bicep and then carefully inserts it into the top rear OR left side of the Pontiac 100.].)

Damage ratings are expected damage, ranges, etc. under combat conditions within a set amount of time, not per shot. (So AC/20 doesn't do 20 damage per shot, AC/2 doesn't do 2 damage per shot... it's 20 and 2 damage in a set amount of time.)
So don't take anything in MWO seriously from a lore perspective. Things are just the way they are.

Good news is this screenshot from MW5: Mercs means that PGI's Bryan Eckman (lead designer for MW5: Mercs) is actually trying to go for reasonable lore, even if not in terms of scale.

notice the shells from the ACs.

Edited by Koniving, 19 November 2017 - 07:42 AM.

[ScorpionNinja]

Airu, on 18 November 2017 - 09:38 PM, said:

IMO Spider 5V should get jump jet lift speed, initial burst and forward thrust quirks. It is the weakest mech in the game in terms of fire power, it should at least excel in something.
It will never be as mobile as a locust, but it could be the best jumping mech in the game, which according to lore it was suppose to be.

Yep! Common sense says that with 4 more JJ's than the Viper, it should Jump Higher and Longer than the Viper, but it doesnt!
Besides, the 5V needs to have something to make it UNIQUE since you can only put 2 energy MLs on it!
I feel even with 12 JJs and full JJ skilltree quirks unlocked, this mech LACKS in the JJ dept.

[Rogue Jedi]

Airu, on 18 November 2017 - 09:38 PM, said:

It will never be as mobile as a locust, but it could be the best jumping mech in the game, which according to lore it was suppose to be.

I guess we must disagree on the defination of mobility, I class mobility as "being able to get to other places quickly", the dictionary defines it as "being able to move or be moved quickly and easily", by those definations the Spider SDR-5V is definately the most mobile Mech in MWO

Yes Locust can match 5V in speed and some models of Comando can be 1.6kph faster, they are also more agile and can accelerate faster but despite their impressive hill climbing ability lack of compatability with Jumpjets means they are much less mobile than the 5V,

Viper and the Cicada CDA-F with 8 jets can jump slightly higher but are noticably slower and less agile

The SDR-5V with 12 jets and a 285 engine is only slightly slower and less agile than Locust and Comando with max engine, and has only slightly less jump capability than the 40 tonners making it more mobile than any other Mech on most maps.
12 Jets are far more significant in terms of mobility than 1.6kph or the agility increase

I agree that a Mech devoting 20% of its tonage ^{(a 5V with 12 jets)} should jump higher than a Mech devoting 10%^{(a Viper or CDA-F with 8)} and we need to keep reminding PGI of this injustice in the hope that they will correct it, but the 5V with anything close to max engine and jets is most definately the most mobile Mech in the game with the much better armed SDR-5K coming in a close second then you have Viper, CDA-F, Asassin, and the MASCed varients of Phoenix Hawk and Shadow Cat, then the 35 ton Jumping Mechs and the other fast, jumping 30 ton Mechs all being more mobile than the Locust and Commando.

In terms of mobility their speed advantage is minor compaired to the advantage of Jump Jets.

Edited by Rogue Jedi, 20 November 2017 - 12:46 PM.

[Airu]

Rogue Jedi, on 19 November 2017 - 03:08 PM, said:

I guess we must disagree on the defination of mobility, I class mobility as "being able to get to places other places quickly", the dictionary defines it as "being able to move or be moved quickly and easily", by those definations the Spider SDR-5V is definately the most mobile Mech in MWO

Yes Locust can match 5V in speed and some models of Comando can be 1.6kph faster, they are also more agile and can accelerate faster but despite their impressive hill climbing ability lack of compatability with Jumpjets means they are much less mobile than the 5V,

Viper and the Cicada CDA-F with 8 jets can jump slightly higher but are noticably slower and less agile

The SDR-5V with 12 jets and a 285 engine is only slightly slower and less agile than Locust and Comando with max engine, and has only slightly less jump capability than the 40 tonners making it more mobile than any other Mech on most maps.
12 Jets are far more significant in terms of mobility than 1.6kph or the agility increase

I agree that a Mech devoting 20% of its tonage ^{(a 5V with 12 jets)} should jump higher than a Mech devoting 10%^{(a Viper or CDA-F with 8)} and we need to keep reminding PGI of this injustice in the hope that they will correct it, but the 5V with anything close to max engine and jets is most definately the most mobile Mech in the game with the much better armed SDR-5K coming in a close second then you have Viper, CDA-F, Asassin, and the MASCed varients of Phoenix Hawk and Shadow Cat, then the 35 ton Jumping Mechs and the other fast, jumping 30 ton Mechs all being more mobile than the Locust and Commando.

In terms of mobility their speed advantage is minor compaired to the advantage of Jump Jets.

Don't forget that locust is almost half the size and brings at least twice the fire power.

That extra mobility does not make 5V hard to hit during jump jetting, because they are still hover jets. That is why I am saying that it needs the take off speed quirk, you jump into enemy line, unload your pathetic alpha and shoot away like a rocket before you get focused. Even 12 JJs still make you float slowly, only increasing the air time and that is my main issue. Locusts sharp turns and accel/decel and small size make it hard to hit, but 5v is easier to hit even with JJs...

[Rogue Jedi]

Airu, on 20 November 2017 - 12:43 PM, said:

Don't forget that locust is almost half the size and brings at least twice the fire power.

That extra mobility does not make 5V hard to hit during jump jetting, because they are still hover jets. That is why I am saying that it needs the take off speed quirk, you jump into enemy line, unload your pathetic alpha and shoot away like a rocket before you get focused. Even 12 JJs still make you float slowly, only increasing the air time and that is my main issue. Locusts sharp turns and accel/decel and small size make it hard to hit, but 5v is easier to hit even with JJs...

I completely agree with those points, evasiveness and agility coupled with small size do indeed make the Locust harder to hit than the Spider and the most lightly armed Locust outguns has as many hardpoints as the most heavily armed Spider.

However my point about mobility stands, the 5V can easily get to places Locust cannot hence the SDR-5V is more mobile, and the fact that only 1 chassis is 1.6kph faster, and only 2 chassis jump 2m higher combine to make the SDR-5V the most mobile Mech in the game.

the Locust is the better weapons platform and in some ways the better Mech ^{(although I have been unable to love it and I blame the LCT-1V(P) cockpit issues)}, the Viper is the best fast highjump Mech if you want firepower but nether are as mobile as the SDR-5V

Edited by Rogue Jedi, 20 November 2017 - 01:07 PM.