67 replies to this topic

[ANOM O MECH]

Jun Watarase, on 21 November 2017 - 08:17 AM, said:

Given that the point of ghost heat is to stop people from dealing too much damage in one alpha, it clearly isnt doing its job if people can alpha 5-6 ER LLs without any penalties. Firing 5 or more ER LLs should give you overheat damage. The extra heat is not an issue if you are sniping at 800+m since there is more than ample time to cool down. If you want to fire 5x ER LLs, you should be forced to wait for the ghost heat timer.

And the BLR-1G needs to be nerfed, right now no other IS assault comes close. There should be more long range options other than "BLR-1G spam".

For that matter, long range needs more options other than ER LL spam. Gauss, PPCs, AC2s, LRMs, none of them come close.

You are making an assumption about ghost heat that is not true. The mechanism is used to limit the amount of alpha's a player can make not outright eliminate the ability to do so.

Also the Grasshopper fares really well against the 1G. The Stalker as well can boat a lot of er large lasers it is just slower which is why it is less common.

To nerf the 1G further would also not make sense. It's high usuage doesn't mean it is overpowered, it is just one of the few options that is able to compete against Clan mechs. Furthermore it is really competing against Clan heavies and not assaults for the most part.

I drop a lot in a Clanner acount during the afternoon (eastern time zone) and in pure pug vs. pug groups the Clan wins the majority of the time. To say that this is because IS pugs are worse than Clan pugs is nonsense. Clan still has a clear advantage at range especially when you consider that PPC's are much better Clan side for range.

[ANOM O MECH]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 November 2017 - 10:50 AM, said:

The BLR-1G needs no such nerf. The fact of the matter is that IS ERLL are garbage against Clan ERLL unless they have a 10% range quirk to help them out. That range boost is a rare commodity these days, and the BLR-1G is one of two IS Assaults with the appropriate combination of hardpoints and geometry that possesses it, the other being the STK-5S. That is why it gets taken. It also happens to have more build flexibility than the Stalker due to engine cap diffetences, so more people have them and prefer them.

As for the final statement, patently false. UAC/2 boats pretty much hard-counter ERLL boats; that's why MX-90s show up against SNV-1s. In the three or four seconds it takes to expose and fire ERLLs, you can rip 48-72 damage into them with six and it is easy to concentrate that damage. ER PPC poptarting also partially foils ERLL boats, especially slow ones that can't juke. Finally, the ERLL+Gauss combo remains one of the most potent combinations in the game across a variety of 'Mechs, on both sides.

You have options. They work, battle-tested and proven over and over again.

Am curious about what you said about UAC 2's. I see a lot of folks macroing them and they don't seem very scary this way. By the way you mention concentrating the damage can I ask how you are firing them? Sort of guessing you fire three and three so you have six/twelve burst instead of the silly stream I see people doing. Perhaps I am wrong?


Edit for spelling.

Edited by tker 669, 21 November 2017 - 11:52 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

I just bind them all to a single firing group and adjust my aim as I go so it is a twelve-point hit, minus jams.

[ANOM O MECH]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 November 2017 - 02:00 PM, said:

I just bind them all to a single firing group and adjust my aim as I go so it is a twelve-point hit, minus jams.

I thought as much. Would have been really surprised if you said you chained them. Not sure why people do it. I think your method actually sounds effective.

[Y E O N N E]

tker 669, on 21 November 2017 - 02:05 PM, said:

I thought as much. Would have been really surprised if you said you chained them. Not sure why people do it. I think your method actually sounds effective.

Visual stun, maybe? Sounds cool? Sometimes I'll do 3+3 because it seems like it jams less, but I think that is merely a placebo. Firing all at once is always superior both on paper and in practice.

[Jackal Noble]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 November 2017 - 02:00 PM, said:

I just bind them all to a single firing group and adjust my aim as I go so it is a twelve-point hit, minus jams.

Until they jam on their own accord.

[Grus]

Stop getting hit by more than one person and you'll stop melting. You may not see it due to an error in hitreg ( being hit but no red marker or sound) but try to play it where you have cover and only one mech in LOS at a time... and always have an escape route.

[Y E O N N E]

JackalBeast, on 21 November 2017 - 02:10 PM, said:

Until they jam on their own accord.

I don't have this problem. They always jam when I expect them to jam.

My internet connection is fantastic, though, so #blessed.

[Jackal Noble]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 November 2017 - 02:17 PM, said:

I don't have this problem. They always jam when I expect them to jam.

My internet connection is fantastic, though, so #blessed.

lol

[SeventhSL]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 November 2017 - 10:50 AM, said:

The fact of the matter is that IS ERLL are garbage against Clan ERLL unless they have a 10% range quirk to help them out.

That is not actually true as per the math in my previous post. With base stats they hold their own. With a 10% range quirk they are just superior.

5xERLL with range quirk puts out slightly more damage at all ranges then 4xC-ERLL. Plus they have superior duration and the same heat or 4.8 points more when both sides alpha. Not that the IS player has to alpha. His controlled fire has only 0.25 seconds longer duration than the Clan alpha strike but 19.2 less heat. On top of this IS has a huge drop deck tonnage advantage which forces Clan to win all trades just to break even.

I'm not suggesting a nerf to IS or the battle master. I'd be against them. I'm just saying IS has a clear advantage while trading ERLL. Lets accept that and keep it in mind when we are discussing other areas where Clan has a clear advantage.

For the record my 2xBattle Master, Warhammer, Locust deck out performs my Clan equivalent deck so well that my Clan decks no longer try to trade ERLL.

[Jun Watarase]

Quote

The mechanism is used to limit the amount of alpha's a player can make not outright eliminate the ability to do so.

Uh...ghost heat was implemented after people started making 6x PPC stalkers and other massive alpha builds. The entire point was to stop people from doing massive alpha strikes, especially massive PPFLD alpha strikes across the map that could two shot fresh mechs.

Ghost heat is obviously not doing its job if you can fire 5x IS ER LL or 4x C-ERLLs and not take any overheat damage. Theres supposed to be a trade off, either you take the heat penalty or you get increased face time and have to stagger your shots. When you are sniping at 800+m on a cold map, everyone would rather take the heat penalty rather than expose themselves for another 0.5s which would mean getting focused fired into oblivion.

When you are brawling, taking the heat penalty is a bad idea (unless its very minor), because you dont get the luxury of reversing behind cover to cool down. If you have like 9 MPLs and just alpha strike at close range while ignoring the ghost heat, you will quickly hit heat threshold and become useless or kill yourself with overheat damage. At 800+m when both teams are just poking at each other, you can just reverse behind cover and wait because you have plenty of time.

A main issue with long range laser vomit is that you can do massive alpha strikes and eat the ghost heat penalty with no issue, since you are nice and safe at long range. If you had to stagger your shots to avoid the ghost heat penalty, TTK would go up and that would be a good thing.

A 45 damage hitscan alpha from 800+m with a burn time fo less than 1s is very silly. Right now the only long range options are ER LL spam. 30 damage gauss alphas obviously cannot compete, neither can ER PPCs. You can run ER LLs with Gauss of course, but people have discovered that its simply easier to eat the ghost heat penalty and save SP by only investing in duration nodes since 2x gauss + 2x ER LL obviously weighs a ton more than 4-5x ER LLs + DHS.

There should be multiple viable options available, not just ER LL spam. We will have reached that point when teams bring something other than ER LL spam to long ranged maps.

Ghost heat just has WAY too many loop holes. Example :

>UAC 5s got ghost heat because of the 6x UAC 5 direwolf
>except that UAC 5 and 10 ghost heat is not linked
>so people just switched to running 2x UAC 10 + 2x UAC 5 boats instead
>completely defeating the point of giving UAC 5s ghost heat

And plenty of nonsensical stuff like :

>4x SRM-4s do 32 damage
>4x SRM-6s do 48 damage
>4x SRM-6s is fine but 5x SRM-4s trigger ghost heat despite having a much lower alpha strike

Edited by Jun Watarase, 21 November 2017 - 04:34 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

SeventhSL, on 21 November 2017 - 03:10 PM, said:

That is not actually true as per the math in my previous post. With base stats they hold their own. With a 10% range quirk they are just superior.

5xERLL with range quirk puts out slightly more damage at all ranges then 4xC-ERLL. Plus they have superior duration and the same heat or 4.8 points more when both sides alpha. Not that the IS player has to alpha. His controlled fire has only 0.25 seconds longer duration than the Clan alpha strike but 19.2 less heat. On top of this IS has a huge drop deck tonnage advantage which forces Clan to win all trades just to break even.

I'm not suggesting a nerf to IS or the battle master. I'd be against them. I'm just saying IS has a clear advantage while trading ERLL. Lets accept that and keep it in mind when we are discussing other areas where Clan has a clear advantage.

For the record my 2xBattle Master, Warhammer, Locust deck out performs my Clan equivalent deck so well that my Clan decks no longer try to trade ERLL.

Why are we looking at 4 cERLL when we could be looking at 5 or 6?

So the comparison is 45 damage vs 44 with cER LL. How many DHS does the BLR have vs a Hellbringer with 4 cERLL?

So lets say we have 10% in the skill tree and a 10% quirk for range on the IS side, but just the skill tree on the Clan side.

IS range: 810m Clan range: 814m

Interesting.

Heat: Does the BLR have a 10% heat gen quirk? Lets say it does. So 5 ERLL heat is 36. 4 cERLL heat is 40. So 4 more heat on the Clan side. Then you wonder if this really matters, as a trade can be won with a hotter build (you can put 4 cERLL on a Cougar) but then you just cool off under cover.. that isn't a big deal for ER LL trading. Also, how many DHS does that HBR have again vs the BLR? 22 vs 20? And the HBR runs 81 vs 67 and doesn't have Dire Whale torso twist range?

Duration boils down to 1.6 for IS vs 1.85 for Clan.. not an earth shattering difference.

Then you look at the fact that a Marauder-IIC can completely blow away that Hellbringer loadout and it really doesn't look so sad for Clans, sorry.

Jun Watarase, on 21 November 2017 - 03:49 PM, said:

Ghost heat is obviously not doing its job if you can fire 5x IS ER LL or 4x C-ERLLs and not take any overheat damage.

********.

44-45 laser damage is nothing compared to 60 damage from 6 PPCs.

Ghost heat is doing its job because alphaing those loadouts basically heat cap you instantly, making it the perfect "last ditch effort" move that the BT/lore purists are always whining about alpha strikes being.

Jun Watarase, on 21 November 2017 - 03:49 PM, said:

Ghost heat just has WAY too many loop holes. Example :

>UAC 5s got ghost heat because of the 6x UAC 5 direwolf
>except that UAC 5 and 10 ghost heat is not linked
>so people just switched to running 2x UAC 10 2x UAC 5 boats instead
>completely defeating the point of giving UAC 5s ghost heat

And plenty of nonsensical stuff like :

>4x SRM-4s do 32 damage
>4x SRM-6s do 48 damage
>4x SRM-6s is fine but 5x SRM-4s trigger ghost heat despite having a much lower alpha strike

Really not nonsensical at all when you apply a tiny bit of critical thought to it. UAC5s and 10s have different velocities, so the damage does not sync as well.

5 SRM4s is lighter and has better spread than 4 6's, but that one I would agree with, SRM4 ghost heat limits should be raised, but that's just PGI not doing it right.

[Jun Watarase]

On the clan side the most common ER LL mechs are :

MAD-IIC
SNV-C
HBR
EBJ

The HBR/EBJ can do 4x ER LLs with a decent amount of DHS in high torso mounts. SNV-C can do 4 with a large tcomp and tons of DHS in high torso mounts. The MAD-IIC has three high torso mounts and two in the CT, although i cannot remember how high the CT mounts are, but the MAD-IIC has awful agility which is bad for trading, which is why the SNV-C is preferred these days.

You can do 5x ER LLs with 32 DHS on the SNV-C, but that obviously requires using the low slung weapon arms, which nobody wants to do since it means you get focused fired into oblivion while trying to get the arms clear of a hill to fire (and which is why most people dont use warhawks anymore since they cant ridge hump effectively). And most people would probably prefer 4x ER LLs with a tcomp 7 for the zoom/range bonuses anyway.

Its just sad that ER LLs are basically the go to weapon for long range since its basically the i-win button. Gauss cant match the range, ER PPCs are too hot and aren't hitscan, UAC 2s are a DPS weapon which doesnt work for long range. LRMs need no explanation for why they dont work.

There is basically no other viable choice available which is why long ranged maps in FP usually degenerate into ER LL poke fests at extreme ranges when its two decent teams facing off.

Edited by Jun Watarase, 21 November 2017 - 04:33 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

SeventhSL, on 21 November 2017 - 03:10 PM, said:

That is not actually true as per the math in my previous post. With base stats they hold their own. With a 10% range quirk they are just superior.

Gas covered most of what I would reply to you with, but I'll leave one additional item:

The only reason your comparison can be considered valid is because of the tonnage disparity making it difficult to run as many 5x cERLL boats as the IS has ERLL boats. What you are really seeing is not the isERLL being competitive, but the effects of the tonnage bandaid allowing inferior IS 'Mechs to just brute-force it with raw hit-points. It's not elegant, it barely works, and it doesn't apply anywhere outside of Faction Play.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 21 November 2017 - 06:19 PM.

[SeventhSL]

Gas Guzzler, on 21 November 2017 - 04:00 PM, said:

Why are we looking at 4 cERLL when we could be looking at 5 or 6?

I used 5xERLL vs 4xC-ERLL as it is by far the most common long range blue laser trade I see in FW.

I can mount 6xERLL on my Battle Masters but I find the sacrifice in mobility/heat not to be worth it in the realities of a battle. In a similar manner I don't see more than 4xC-ERLL to be worth it for Clan.

On Clan omnis the extra tonnage comes from 4xDHS per extra laser. Given the way ghost heat scales more than four gets really, really hot to alpha (if the build can). The lack of DHS also starts to severely effect your DPS and smart IS teams can take advantage of that.

If you start dropping heavier Clan mechs (Supernova, Marauda IIC) to face the Battle Masters then you run into the issue of the IS tonnage advantage. You not only have to out trade them but you have to destroy them and put enough hurt on the next mech to break even.

This is not Clan doom and gloom. It just means I don't want to be trading with ERLL. I use cover to get to the range where the Clan ERM advantage kicks in. Alternatively, I'll trade at long range but with C-ERPPC.

[Y E O N N E]

Jun Watarase, on 21 November 2017 - 04:29 PM, said:

You can do 5x ER LLs with 32 DHS on the SNV-C, but that obviously requires using the low slung weapon arms, which nobody wants to do since it means you get focused fired into oblivion while trying to get the arms clear of a hill to fire (and which is why most people dont use warhawks anymore since they cant ridge hump effectively). And most people would probably prefer 4x ER LLs with a tcomp 7 for the zoom/range bonuses anyway.

The proper way to snipe is full expose as a team. The low arms don't matter much there, and the SNV can roll the damage better than the BLR. If you are playing in small groups and not coordinating with a team, the high mounts become more valuable.

There is a reason the SNV is preferred in MWOWC and why Oz swapped out of their BLRs as the competition got tougher. Nothing has changed in this department between that client and the live game, either, in fact it's only gotten worse with the various MedLas and UAC nerfs. The greater range and greater sustained output of 5x cERLL on the SNV are that much more important than the high mounts on the BLR.

Quote

Its just sad that ER LLs are basically the go to weapon for long range since its basically the i-win button. Gauss cant match the range, ER PPCs are too hot and aren't hitscan, UAC 2s are a DPS weapon which doesnt work for long range. LRMs need no explanation for why they dont work.

Gauss typically have 726 meter range on an optimal build and can still offer solid supplemental firepower to ERLL. The long-range meta heavy is still a Night Gyr with Gauss and cERLL. A RFL-3N built similarly is also very good.

ERPPC pop-tarts still have a place in keeping ERLL boats off-balance. You can't know where the next shot is coming from if the pop-tart is being played right and it just chips away at the armor on the big boats, forcing them back into cover and seizing map control. It's niche, but it's effective.

UAC/2 can do more damage than ERLL in the amount of time it takes to expose, burn, and cover back. Their burst damage is very good, and they can push where ERLL users would have difficulty. The velocity is sufficiently high that little damage gets wasted and not much time is spent calculating deflection.

Quote

There is basically no other viable choice available which is why long ranged maps in FP usually degenerate into ER LL poke fests at extreme ranges when its two decent teams facing off.

Honestly, that's more a factor of there being no way to reload a 'Mech than actual effectiveness. If I manage to clobber over 1400 damage with a UAC/2 boat and run dry without having taken significant damage, it's a waste of armor. With ERLL, I can keep being dangerous until I die.

[SeventhSL]

Yeonne Greene, on 21 November 2017 - 06:19 PM, said:

Gas covered most of what I would reply to you with, but I'll leave one additional item:

The only reason your comparison can be considered valid is because of the tonnage disparity making it difficult to run as many 5x cERLL boats as the IS has ERLL boats. What you are really seeing is not the isERLL being competitive, but the effects of the tonnage bandaid allowing inferior IS 'Mechs to just brute-force it with raw hit-points. It's not elegant, it barely works, and it doesn't apply anywhere outside of Faction Play.

Yes I agree completely!!!! Sadly the FW tonnage difference is what we have to deal with. When Clan complains about being out traded by ERLL in FW it is true. When IS players complain their ERLL don't cut it in compedative and quick play this is also true.

Edited by SeventhSL, 21 November 2017 - 07:56 PM.

[Vellron2005]

I would just like to point something out..

The OP's claims that laservomit meta is coring him out very quickly is true for me as well, but as the OP also stated, only against certain players and certain groups..

I myself have several dedicated laservomit mechs, and it's very frustrating when I'm in a full armor assault, such as a Supernova, Battlemaster or Marauder IIC, and I get a single laser alpha from long range and loose a side torso, while also not being able to replicate said damage and results regardless of build.

If the shooter is at 1000+ meters, or 100 meters, it does not matter. No amount of weapons, laser or otherwise, should be able to take out an assault's side torso, or core-out an assault's CT.. yet, against certain players, from certain groups, this happens every time I see them.

And not just when they are in large groups.. 1-3 of them guarantee almost instant, 1-2 shot kills sometimes..

These "odd" players seem god-like, hack-like, and impossibly good. They have obscene amounts of damage and kills.

Now, I do recognize that a player can be good, coordinated and conditioned, and run a fully optimized mech.. but some of the things that happen around these certain players just seem impossible..

On more than one occasion, I personally have gone 1 vs 1 with some of these players.. (I really have to start recording my drops), and the oddest things happen.. things like you shoot them with full laser alpha, they barely change a shade, they shoot back, you loose a body part..

I've asked multiple times for PGI to investigate, sent screenshots and reports... all I ever got were automated response emails and a warn for breaking the COC when talking about it..

Now I know what you gonna say.. video or it didn't happen..

The simple fact is.. I really don't blame people who simply disconnect when they see some of these "odd" players on the enemy team. They make the game less fun for everybody, and it's only logical that people don't want to play against them. Its like racing a bicycle against a Lamborghini with the judges looking the other way..

Its not fun at all..

Edited by Vellron2005, 22 November 2017 - 01:06 AM.

[YueFei]

Vellron2005, on 22 November 2017 - 01:05 AM, said:

These "odd" players seem god-like, hack-like, and impossibly good. They have obscene amounts of damage and kills.

Now, I do recognize that a player can be good, coordinated and conditioned, and run a fully optimized mech.. but some of the things that happen around these certain players just seem impossible..

On more than one occasion, I personally have gone 1 vs 1 with some of these players.. (I really have to start recording my drops), and the oddest things happen.. things like you shoot them with full laser alpha, they barely change a shade, they shoot back, you loose a body part..

I've asked multiple times for PGI to investigate, sent screenshots and reports... all I ever got were automated response emails and a warn for breaking the COC when talking about it..

Spectate a really good player sometime. Watch their throttle and legs. They're spreading your damage by small shifts in angle and motion. Even an 100 damage alpha strike is not debilitating if it is spread across all 3 torsos.

You can't reliably spread damage merely by being in motion, even if you're going laterally. If you aren't turning and/or accelerating/decelerating, then even if you're moving sideways, you are still a predictable target.

I once noticed that a player actually prevented himself from losing his Hunchback's right shoulder to a massive laser salvo because he actually stutter-stepped while trying to reverse back into cover. That is, he was already going backward when he anticipated that the enemy was going to be lasering his right shoulder, and he decelerated, causing it to splash onto his CT instead, and then resumed reversing back into cover.

These things aren't so easily noticeable if you aren't paying attention. Try it for yourself and you should see your survivability go up.

[Vellron2005]

YueFei, on 22 November 2017 - 01:46 AM, said:

Spectate a really good player sometime. Watch their throttle and legs. They're spreading your damage by small shifts in angle and motion. Even an 100 damage alpha strike is not debilitating if it is spread across all 3 torsos.

You can't reliably spread damage merely by being in motion, even if you're going laterally. If you aren't turning and/or accelerating/decelerating, then even if you're moving sideways, you are still a predictable target.

I once noticed that a player actually prevented himself from losing his Hunchback's right shoulder to a massive laser salvo because he actually stutter-stepped while trying to reverse back into cover. That is, he was already going backward when he anticipated that the enemy was going to be lasering his right shoulder, and he decelerated, causing it to splash onto his CT instead, and then resumed reversing back into cover.

These things aren't so easily noticeable if you aren't paying attention. Try it for yourself and you should see your survivability go up.

I know about this from Zellbrigen trainig, but how do you explain shooting one of "those players" from point-blank, full frontal, to the CT, with 6 x ERMediums and 2 Large pulse, and they don't even change a shade, and they shoot back and take of an intact side torso?

These are the things I'm talking about..

Direct, clean shots to the CT, that fail to register, and enemy taking off components despite torso twisting and full armor..

I stress.. only against certain players from certain units..

I know I know.. video or it didn't happen..

Edited by Vellron2005, 22 November 2017 - 02:28 AM.