46 replies to this topic

[The Mysterious Fox]

Vxheous, on 21 November 2017 - 11:03 PM, said:

You're 6 months late to the party. Also, don't group up in a pack, and look up at the sky often when you're not actively shooting at something to spot incoming planes. It also takes 7 seconds for a strike to hit, if you're still standing in the way of one after smoke pops, your fault.

Also beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It is extremely satisfying to see an entire team clumped behind a ridge and being the one that drops the strike directly on top of all of them.

heck dont even leave the hanger, go home and do something constructive, look at the patch notes and turn around if nothing is fixed.

[ESC 907]

Asym, on 22 November 2017 - 11:18 AM, said:

I disagree.... Economy of Force.... One of the nine principles of war. "It is the principle of employing all available combat power in the most effective way possible, in an attempt to allocate a minimum of essential combat power to any secondary effort:... a lone, last mech is a secondary effort." I'd not waste my team's time on a lone mech either.... To what end, Honorable Combat? If we sent our weakest mech out to challenge you, you'd just start firing anyway......... There should be a way to offer "Honorable Combat"....

There is a way to offer "Honorable Combat". It's the All-Chat. Then it's just a question of whether the rest of the larger team, and the recipient of the offer, will hold up the terms. My unit used to do this in FW all the time. If there was ever a match where our team was rolling the op4, we'd offer 1v1's to any willing to accept, then circle up and spectate the brawl. Pretty fun. We still try to do it if there's ever a tilted FW match. It's especially fun when it's someone who is unaware of the "rules", so we could spend a few moments educating the op4 on the formalities of a duel. It's a nice way to build respect between the opposing sides, every one we had ended amicably - with both sides thankful for the experience.

[Trissila]

Asym, on 22 November 2017 - 11:18 AM, said:

I disagree.... Economy of Force.... One of the nine principles of war.

"It is the principle of employing all available combat power in the most effective way possible, in an attempt to allocate a minimum of essential combat power to any secondary effort:... a lone, last mech is a secondary effort."

I'd not waste my team's time on a lone mech either.... To what end, Honorable Combat? If we sent our weakest mech out to challenge you, you'd just start firing anyway......... There should be a way to offer "Honorable Combat"....

All there really needs to be is some kind of meaningful cost to using strikes.

The point of that anecdote was not some nonsensical Sun Tzu And The Art of Videogame Warfare nonsense.

It's that strikes are such freebies, such zero-cost zero-risk nonsense, that even in a 100% guaranteed victory scenario people throw them out because why not, might as well.

That's bad game design, straight up.

[Chados]

Strike spam is super annoying. Absolutely agree. And it needs limited, absolutely agree with that too. I’d like to see it limited to no more than one per mech with a good 30 seconds between them. At least then we’d get a thirty second break between strikes.

[Vxheous]

Chados, on 22 November 2017 - 02:31 PM, said:

Strike spam is super annoying. Absolutely agree. And it needs limited, absolutely agree with that too. I’d like to see it limited to no more than one per mech with a good 30 seconds between them. At least then we’d get a thirty second break between strikes.

It's 24 seconds now between strikes right now, not far off of your wish of 30 seconds. I'll illustrate it below:

Strike called ---(7 seconds)-->Strike hits ---(10 seconds)-->Strike called ---(7seconds)-->Strike hits.

From the time a strike is called (smoke) it takes 7 seconds before it hits. There is then another 10 seconds before another strike can be called, but that will then take another 7 seconds before that strike lands.

The OP's exaggeration of 20 strikes in a match would have meant a strike being called every time it was up for 8 minutes straight. Doubtful that was the case.

Edited by Vxheous, 22 November 2017 - 02:42 PM.

[Admiral-Dan]

Tarogato, on 21 November 2017 - 11:42 PM, said:

Your suggestions are a bit drastic, but I sympathise with your frustration. Strikes should definitely be limited to one per pilot. PGI was out of their mind to bring in double coolshot + double strike.

Double coolshot + double strike improves your damage drastically, so you are practically forced to use them. This way PGI ”encourages” you to buy premium or be space poor.

[Honeybadgers]

Asym, on 21 November 2017 - 11:52 PM, said:

I feel bad your frustrated but, there is more to MWO than brawling in massed groups. Mass up and die...... NASCAR and die.....

I feel the consumables should be expanded; and, tied to Targeting Computers so that they have a weapons value in weight and slots. The bigger the TC the deadlier, more accurate and longer the strikes. Add a TAG or a NARC with the TC's and you can specifically target mechs.....

This concept reverts MWO back into roles.....Spotters (NARCs), in direct fire pilots (LRMs & Strikes) and scouts (TAGs and ECM).

Again, sorry we "rained on your parade" but, well, ah, geeze, ah pooh, don't group up !!!!

No raining, I genuinely like this idea.

We need a role for the arty strike. They are just stupid as is. And mech grouping is just what happens in quick play. Arty strikes are reasonable in comp, but they are balanced so badly.

And what about the support mechs? God help those poor lights who want to fill the support role of ECM and AMS, which requires they be part of the group. Arty strikes are what stopped me playing my AMS focused nova and kit fox.

Vxheous, on 22 November 2017 - 02:40 PM, said:

It's 24 seconds now between strikes right now, not far off of your wish of 30 seconds. I'll illustrate it below:

Strike called ---(7 seconds)-->Strike hits ---(10 seconds)-->Strike called ---(7seconds)-->Strike hits.

From the time a strike is called (smoke) it takes 7 seconds before it hits. There is then another 10 seconds before another strike can be called, but that will then take another 7 seconds before that strike lands.

The OP's exaggeration of 20 strikes in a match would have meant a strike being called every time it was up for 8 minutes straight. Doubtful that was the case.

I ******* counted them. it was twenty. A long, awful, ******** game.

Edited by Honeybadgers, 23 November 2017 - 01:04 AM.

[pheeere]

Nowadays it is indeed unbearable. It is not uncommon to constantly see red smoke popping up somewhere near you. These things are FAR too cheap. I know this is a fictitious setting and all, but considering what missiles etc. cost in our real life economy, might be a good idea to tweak the in-game price model..

Constant arty spam + LRM spam + long range meta = Not always a fun experience, esp. for IS. Most builds are entirely and utterly useless.

EDIT: Also, "don't group up" is a pretty useless advice for a game which offers lazy map designs which funnel Mechs in large groups towards evenly large amounts of Mechs in firing lines.

Edited by pheeere, 23 November 2017 - 06:03 AM.

[Asym]

Trissila, on 22 November 2017 - 01:59 PM, said:

All there really needs to be is some kind of meaningful cost to using strikes.

The point of that anecdote was not some nonsensical Sun Tzu And The Art of Videogame Warfare nonsense.

It's that strikes are such freebies, such zero-cost zero-risk nonsense, that even in a 100% guaranteed victory scenario people throw them out because why not, might as well.

That's bad game design, straight up.

I've offered suggestions to "adding a cost" to strikes and LRM's for the return of their real combat power and potential. Right now, it is the way it is I'm afraid; so, put your big boy shorts on and stop whining about what you can't change. It's tiresome...

To answer your second point: not nonsense, a hard reality whose concepts have been tested, challenged and proven over and over again throughout the centuries. Warfare, and the study of warfare, is the oldest documented "science" there is. The Art of War is in use and taught to this day. This "published doctrine" has been around since 535BC.....

Your point is moot. Cost had nothing to do with this discussion. You and the rest that want to eliminate Strikes/LRMs do so because you fear them because you can't control them.... Moot because Strikes and LRM's are a combat multiplers built into the lore of this game and if you are affraid of them, go play a "safer and fairer" game.....

Your meta nonsense and gamer playstyles with all of the gamed inpsired shortcuts are the real problem here. Un-Nerf these degraded weapons, return the nerfs and I'd bet you a dollar to a donut many of you would leave MWO because in the face of real power, you'd find "safer" and "more controllable" games..... Bring lethality back and then let's talk about costs, nonsense and "the Art of War"........

A good story combined with a healythy dose of reality are a good game design; and, your meta gamer nonsense would leave and the e-Sports concept would have relevance.....

[Weeny Machine]

Asym, on 23 November 2017 - 07:07 AM, said:

I've offered suggestions to "adding a cost" to strikes and LRM's for the return of their real combat power and potential. Right now, it is the way it is I'm afraid; so, put your big boy shorts on and stop whining about what you can't change. It's tiresome...

To answer your second point: not nonsense, a hard reality whose concepts have been tested, challenged and proven over and over again throughout the centuries. Warfare, and the study of warfare, is the oldest documented "science" there is. The Art of War is in use and taught to this day. This "published doctrine" has been around since 535BC.....

Your point is moot. Cost had nothing to do with this discussion. You and the rest that want to eliminate Strikes/LRMs do so because you fear them because you can't control them.... Moot because Strikes and LRM's are a combat multiplers built into the lore of this game and if you are affraid of them, go play a "safer and fairer" game.....

Your meta nonsense and gamer playstyles with all of the gamed inpsired shortcuts are the real problem here. Un-Nerf these degraded weapons, return the nerfs and I'd bet you a dollar to a donut many of you would leave MWO because in the face of real power, you'd find "safer" and "more controllable" games..... Bring lethality back and then let's talk about costs, nonsense and "the Art of War"........

A good story combined with a healythy dose of reality are a good game design; and, your meta gamer nonsense would leave and the e-Sports concept would have relevance.....

Like it or not, he got one point, though: there are too many incentives NOT to move and snipe/laser spam from a huge range. Static gameplay is bland. And here we are.

As for strikes: personally I think they add some spice, however, the sheer armount even in QP matches is sometimes ridiculous.It would be better to make them only accessible to light mechs.

Edited by Bush Hopper, 23 November 2017 - 07:48 AM.

[Asym]

I really think we need, as a game, to incorporate Strikes and LRM's into the slots and weight structures of the game. That would include tieing strikes and LRM's to the targeting computers...

That might, cause "roles" to be relevant again if there is "real value" in their use... Un-nerf them and tie their effectiveness to Target Computers and TAG/NARC's. A heavy LRM boat and a dedicated spotter with TAG or NARC's should be the damage producers. Strikes are tied to TC size: the larger the TC, the more effective and deadly the Strikes and LRMs are. No TC, no strikes. LEMs w/o ARTEMIS and TC's would be available but, greatly diminished.... BUT, we'd have to un-nerf the LRMs and Strikes to balance this.... If you had a TC3 and a spotter........well, you'd not want to face them in open terrain w/o RD and AMS and ECM....and, even then, you'd get mauled pretty quickly with a LRM-90 platform with strikes being pin-point percise.

That way, everyone is happy........

[Bigbacon]

Bush Hopper, on 23 November 2017 - 07:47 AM, said:

Like it or not, he got one point, though: there are too many incentives NOT to move and snipe/laser spam from a huge range. Static gameplay is bland. And here we are.

As for strikes: personally I think they add some spice, however, the sheer armount even in QP matches is sometimes ridiculous.It would be better to make them only accessible to light mechs.

Longer cooldown and onpy allow one per mech and/or makes them cost way more cbills would curb usage.

[Khobai]

two strikes per mech is too much. It really needs to go back to one strike per mech.


But the other major problem with arty is that some mechs are physically incapable of clearing the radius in time.

a kodiak-3 accelerates at 6.19 kph which is 1.72 meters per second. So after 7 seconds of acceleration at 1.72 meters per second, a kodiak is going 12.04 meters per second. thats its final velocity.

so the maximum distanced a stopped kodiak can travel in 7 seconds is

D = T * V

D = distance
T = time (in this case 7 seconds, the time it takes an arty to land after smoke)
V = average velocity (6.02, calculated from your initial velocity of 0 plus your final velocity of 12.04 divided by 2)

D = 7 * 6.02 = 42.14 meters is the max distance a kodiak-3 starting at 0kph can travel in 7 seconds.

Whats the radius of an artillery? 75m. 60m with the accuracy upgrade.

It is physically impossible for a Kodiak-3 to walk out of the artillery radius in 7 seconds.

So anyone saying "its not a big deal, when you see the smoke just walk out of it" is just being ignorant. Some mechs physically cant do it. Not to mention theres a reaction time lag of 0.25-0.5 before your brain even realizes theres red smoke and an artillery being dropped, so you dont even have a full 7 seconds. Probably more like 6.5-6.75 seconds. And the above calculations also assumed youre at the exact center of the artillery, if the artillery is dropped in front of you, you have even less time, because you have to walk further forward, or you have to turn which takes time in an assault.

So basically what it comes down to is this: assaults need a MASSIVE acceleration buff -OR- artillery needs to give more than 7 second warning before it drops. Because even the slowest assault should be given a fair chance to clear the blast radius.

Edited by Khobai, 23 November 2017 - 01:19 PM.

[LowSubmarino]

Strikes are not the problem.

They only do so much dmg, cause teams cluster up in qp in basically every game.

You can also approach them so easily, they do the same thing each game.

With a light or medium build for that role, you can just immediately run right to where the other team will start their nascar and be in the perfect position. Right behing their last, slow mechs in the nascar train. Youll be in their flank and behind them.

Youll have a field day with strikes as teams rarely ever truely fortify a position.

No matter if they stay for 5 seconds or 2 mins.

They are usually completly oblivious as to what happens around them. Especially the rear is neglected 100 % of the time.

Combine that with teams immdiately run for the same choke and ridges in super cluster formations. More than perfect targets for strikes. And they do it literally ever single match. Even though, its hilariously easy to avoid that when sticking to a better formation and some space between the mechs and communication before the entire team starts moving.

Preferably one light in the front and some light/medium covering the rear and one fast mech to support who ever meets more resistance.

Thats not how pugs play though.

They leave themselves wide open for any and all sorts of attacks. Backstabbing is as ridiculously effective as are strikes.

But why would you start blaming backstabbing or striking?

Damn...then you could also start complaining that singling out cored components with an ac 20 carried by a mech running 96 kph is op. And it actually is.

I just realized what a single ac20 can do. Its like the grim reaper.

So start complaining ac20s are op.

Actually.....they are way, way more op than strikes haha.

[Ken Harkin]

Trissila, on 22 November 2017 - 09:30 AM, said:

Has zero to do with grouping up.

I was in a match last night. Last one alive on my team, 6 on the enemy team, 6v1 and they had a read on my position. Fired at them, dropped back behind cover for a moment to avoid the return fire for as long as I could -- had a light and a medium bearing down on me so they'd be there in a moment anyway.

That team dropped an arty strike on me. 6v1 and already moving in on the position, and they dropped a strike anyway. Because why not? It's free damage and cost them nothing.

Needs to be removed from the game.

Boo boo. I'd have done the same gambling 40,000 c-bills against your being dumb enough to wait right behind the piece of cover you just ducked behind.

[Whitey On The Moon]

Trissila, on 22 November 2017 - 09:30 AM, said:

It's free damage and cost them nothing.

Its its not free, no cost, insta-damage.
It does cost 40k C-bills or 15MC.
And you guys are obviously spending too much time standing still or milling around the same rock/ridge/circle jerk..

Honestly, get some perspective. Avoiding air and arty strikes is even more L2P than avoiding LRMs.

Edited by Whitey On The Moon, 26 November 2017 - 11:27 AM.

[R Valentine]

I'll never get why PGI nerfed consumable to begin with, then come skill tree gave people access to two of EVERYTHING, including upgrades from the standard versions. Once people figured out how good they were, everyone invested fully into the consumable tree. Two UAVs, two airstrikes, two cool shots. Games are fought and won on consumables way too often.

[Khobai]

PGI needs to add new consumables instead of allowing people to use more than one of the existing types.


like if you could use 1 strike, 1 coolshot, 1 uav, 1 fake radar contact generator

that would be fine.

but 2 strikes, 2 coolshots is stupid


what they need is a limit of one of each type of consumable. but add at least 4 new consumables. seismic sensor probes, deployable ams sentrys, fake radar contact generators... the different possibilities for new consumables are endless.


for example all the consumables could be divided into categories and you could only pick one consumable from each category.

strike consumables:
-airstrike
-artillery strike

detection consumables:
-uav
-seismic sensor probe

utility consumables:
-coolshot
-ams sentry gun

electronic warfare consumables:
-fake radar contact generator
-radar jammer/ecm generator

Edited by Khobai, 26 November 2017 - 12:10 PM.

[Chados]

Most of the time you don’t even see the smoke. It’s either behind you or you’re walking up some hill and the air strike is dropped on the top where you can’t see it, and goes over the top and down where you’re at. No chance there to get out of the way. Where that’s really annoying is when you’re in a fight on places like Grim Plexus in the buildings and on those slopes dueling the enemy and some joker is rolling strikes down on you from up above-when all you can see already is flashes and cockpit shake from LRMs and rotary autocannon or low-caliber ACs firing in tandem, you’re not going to be able to move out of the way even if you do see the smoke plume at the last second.

It’s just annoying. It’s more annoying than LRM5 spam. It’s more annoying than gauss/PPC snipers and Raven ERLL/stealth armor l337 k3wl snip3r trolls. Once or twice, fine, I can live with that. Twelve times a match is really irritating. It reminds me of artillery in Armored Warfare. The main thing that drove AW players out was that constant “incoming, incoming!!” It was so bad that the AW developers got rid of artillery in all PvP settings, and left it in PvE to drive players to PvP...but even there it got toned down.

[OrmsbyGore]

oneda, on 26 November 2017 - 03:50 AM, said:

But why would you start blaming backstabbing or striking?

Damn...then you could also start complaining that singling out cored components with an ac 20 carried by a mech running 96 kph is op. And it actually is.

I just realized what a single ac20 can do. Its like the grim reaper.

So start complaining ac20s are op.

Actually.....they are way, way more op than strikes haha.

I get what you were trying to hint at, but this is a straw man argument: the ac20 takes up crit slots, tonnage, requires ammo, has a maximum range (a relatively short one, too), requires you to not only aim but lead a target (and you have to be precise, no area of effect here), and can be destroyed in combat.