183 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

Simply make artillery strike delay longer. Problem solved. And by this we might also experience less "Artillery strike Warrior online", which would be good too.

id rather see assault acceleration increased

not just for the arty problem but because their acceleration is far too low

the physics of MWO dont make sense.

acceleration should be determined by engine size and tonnage and it should be a consistent relationship

a 100 ton assault with a 300 engine should accelerate the exact same as a 75 ton heavy with a 225 engine

a kodiak 3 should not accelerate at only 6.19 kph


im fine with agility being desyncd from engine size. but engine size should very much affect acceleration.

bigger engine = more acceleration

Edited by Khobai, 26 November 2017 - 11:14 AM.

[Beaching Betty]

All I know is that Centurion-YLW is still the best mech for me..

(Oh sh*t, Im out of topic!)

[MischiefSC]

Best Assault -

Urbie K9.

[BlueStrat]

Khobai, on 26 November 2017 - 11:13 AM, said:

id rather see assault acceleration increased

not just for the arty problem but because their acceleration is far too low

the physics of MWO dont make sense.

acceleration should be determined by engine size and tonnage and it should be a consistent relationship

a 100 ton assault with a 300 engine should accelerate the exact same as a 75 ton heavy with a 225 engine

a kodiak 3 should not accelerate at only 6.19 kph


im fine with agility being desyncd from engine size. but engine size should very much affect acceleration.

bigger engine = more acceleration

Agreed. Like Skill Nodes for Speed Tweak, the Kinetic Burst node percentage for at least the 90- & 100-tonners should get a buff, as 3.5% more of bupkiss is still bupkiss and often not worth wasting SP/nodes on.

[R Valentine]

Assaults should get a damage reduction from arty and airstrikes. The mechs are already huge, so there's plenty of mech to hit, they move slow, so getting out of the way is no guarantee, and they're supposed to be tough.

[Brain Cancer]

Ensaine, on 26 November 2017 - 03:58 AM, said:

I've been here awhile, and I can tell you this .....

Back in the day, when you were driving a light or medium, and came around a corner right into the chin of an Atlas or other Assault, you crapped your pants. Even heavy pilots were not too keen on chin tanking assaults.

Now, an assault pilot gets one Arctic Cheetah or Myst Lynx on him, and the assault pilot craps his pants.

Yes, things are different.

You clearly don't remember people being bent over in Atlases like I do. You know, when some little Commando would hump their legs under the guns and gnaw one to death? Lights have always been pains to assaults. The difference these days is speed means more, so the worst weakness of many assaults has become glaring.

[davoodoo]

Brain Cancer, on 26 November 2017 - 12:05 PM, said:

You clearly don't remember people being bent over in Atlases like I do. You know, when some little Commando would hump their legs under the guns and gnaw one to death? Lights have always been pains to assaults. The difference these days is speed means more, so the worst weakness of many assaults has become glaring.

I feel like nowadays firepower means way more than speed.

Look at anni for best example it would be considered troll mech 2 years back but now is actually a solid contender.

Also its not like i dont know where this idea came from, even back with std and no lff mechs could still put their max firepower, but now due to lfe and lff they can actually up their engines since firepower is already capped.

Edited by davoodoo, 26 November 2017 - 12:28 PM.

[xe N on]

Khobai, on 26 November 2017 - 11:13 AM, said:

id rather see assault acceleration increased

not just for the arty problem but because their acceleration is far too low

the physics of MWO dont make sense.

acceleration should be determined by engine size and tonnage and it should be a consistent relationship

a 100 ton assault with a 300 engine should accelerate the exact same as a 75 ton heavy with a 225 engine

a kodiak 3 should not accelerate at only 6.19 kph


im fine with agility being desyncd from engine size. but engine size should very much affect acceleration.

bigger engine = more acceleration

A 75 ton heavy with a 225 engine has same speed as an 100 ton assault with a 300 engine. But it has less free tonnage and less armor. Where would be the trade off? Why you would choose the heavy over the assault?

Exactly for that reason the decoupling of engine and mobility was done. Balance.

And speaking of physical consistency in Battletech or MWO is like to discuss the physics of Discworld ...

Edited by xe N on, 26 November 2017 - 12:47 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

A heavy with a 225 engine has same speed as an assault with a 300 engine. But it has less free tonnage and less armor. Where is the trade off?

-better agility
-better torso twist
-smaller hitboxes
-the heavy can also take a 300 engine and go faster than the assault

just because a 100 ton assault with a 300 engine should have the same acceleration as a 75 tonner with a 225 engine, doesnt mean 75 tonners have to use 225 engines. most of them can use 300 engines too.

it just means acceleration should be consistent and it should equal force (engine rating) divided by mass (tonnage).

Edited by Khobai, 26 November 2017 - 12:47 PM.

[FupDup]

xe N on, on 26 November 2017 - 12:41 PM, said:

A 75 ton heavy with a 225 engine has same speed as an 100 ton assault with a 300 engine. But it has less free tonnage and less armor. Where would be the trade off? Why you would choose the heavy over the assault?

And speaking of physical consistency in Battletech or MWO is like to discuss the physics of Discworld ...

Why would you ever willingly use a sub-250 rated engine on a mech that has a cap higher than 250? And for that matter you should never go below a 300 engine on a 75-ton heavy.

Khobai, on 26 November 2017 - 12:44 PM, said:

-better agility
-better torso twist
-smaller hitboxes
-the heavy can also take a 300 engine and go faster than the assault

just because a 100 ton assault with a 300 engine should have the same acceleration as a 75 tonner with a 225 engine, doesnt mean 75 tonners have to use 225 engines. most of them can use 300 engines too.

it just means acceleration should be consistent and it should equal force (engine rating) divided by mass (tonnage).

Dude, no.Something like a Stormcrow or Linebacker should never have the same acceleration as a tiny little Kit Fox.

[xe N on]

Khobai, on 26 November 2017 - 12:44 PM, said:

-better agility
-better torso twist
-smaller hitboxes
-the heavy can also take a 300 engine and go faster than the assault

just because a 100 ton assault with a 300 engine should have the same acceleration as a 75 tonner with a 225 engine, doesnt mean 75 tonners have to use 225 engines. most of them can use 300 engines too.

it just means acceleration should be consistent and it should equal force (engine rating) divided by mass (tonnage).

This would again be without doubt physically correct but would again be bad for balance. We had this before. Kodiak totally out-ruled anything else. Especially those assaults that had a fixed low engine rating like the dire wolf or IS assaults, that needed a low engine rating to compete.

[davoodoo]

FupDup, on 26 November 2017 - 12:49 PM, said:

Dude, no.Something like a Stormcrow or Linebacker should never have the same acceleration as a tiny little Kit Fox.

Why not?? 100 ton mech with 400 engine should move as fast and be as agile as 25 tons with 100 engine.

But then no 25 tonner will put such a small engine...

Tbh i have an example
30 tons 60 engine
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b#i=275&l=stock
32.4kph
100 tons 200 engine
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6108114f04c2157
32.4kph

but atlas is less agile for some bizarre reason.

Edited by davoodoo, 26 November 2017 - 12:56 PM.

[FupDup]

davoodoo, on 26 November 2017 - 12:52 PM, said:

Why not?? 100 ton mech with 400 engine should move as fast and be as agile as 25 tons with 100 engine.

Because the bigger gundam gets more armor and guns unless it's like a weird fringe case of comparing the Gargoyle against Clan heavies. If you want some advantages, you should have to make some sacrifices (like agility) to get them. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too.

And what kind of potato uses a 100 engine in any mech? People using stock Urbanmechs for fun don't count.

Edited by FupDup, 26 November 2017 - 12:55 PM.

[davoodoo]

FupDup, on 26 November 2017 - 12:54 PM, said:

Because the bigger gundam gets more armor and guns unless it's like a weird fringe case of comparing the Gargoyle against Clan heavies. If you want some advantages, you should have to make some sacrifices (like agility) to get them. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too.

And what kind of potato uses a 100 engine in any mech? People using stock Urbanmechs for fun don't count.

And for that pays with having to use bigger engine to achieve same speed.

locusts run 190 engine
atlas would need to use 950 engine and such doesnt exist to begin with, even stormcrow would need to run 520...

40 tonner would need to use 380.
190xl weighs 8 tons so 40% of locust total weight, structure weighs 2 tons + 3 tons for dhs, leaving us with 7 tons for armor and weapons
380xl weighs 27.5 tons so 69% of 40 tonner total weight, structure weighs 4 tons leaving us with 8.5 tons for armor and weapons.

that alone discourages ppl who making silly builds that would be as agile as light mechs because it doesnt work.
armor doesnt magically get lighter because you put it on medium heavy or assault, structure increases in weight, mech which decides to be as agile as lighter one will pay for it with less available tonnage.

Edited by davoodoo, 26 November 2017 - 01:07 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Dude, no.Something like a Stormcrow or Linebacker should never have the same acceleration as a tiny little Kit Fox.

of course it should. its simple physics.

acceleration = force divided by mass

a linebacker with a 390 engine should have the same acceleration as a kitfox with a 180 engine

you can still give the kitfox acceleration quirks on top of that, but not all light mechs should get those acceleration quirks. probably just the slower lights like the kitfox.

but the base level of acceleration (not including quirks) between a linebacker and kitfox should be exactly the same

that also helps add more incentive to take bigger engines again. right now the bigger engines just arnt worth it because of the exponential tonnage increase. PGI had it wrong before though, bigger engines shouldnt increase torso twist speed or turning speed. But they should definitely increase acceleration.

Quote

This would again be without doubt physically correct but would again be bad for balance. We had this before. Kodiak totally out-ruled anything else. Especially those assaults that had a fixed low engine rating like the dire wolf or IS assaults, that needed a low engine rating to compete.

the kodiak wasnt overpowered because of acceleration though. and im not saying its other agility stats should be increased. just acceleration.

right now the kodiak cant even accelerate fast enough to get out of an artillery strike, how is that fair? it automatically gets hit by any artillery dropped directly on it.

oh no kodiaks can actually move out of artillery strikes in time now. so overpowered.

Edited by Khobai, 26 November 2017 - 01:40 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Because the bigger gundam gets more armor and guns unless it's like a weird fringe case of comparing the Gargoyle against Clan heavies. If you want some advantages, you should have to make some sacrifices (like agility) to get them. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too.

And what kind of potato uses a 100 engine in any mech? People using stock Urbanmechs for fun don't count.

yeah but im just talking about the baseline acceleration values. not the values after quirks.

obviously a kitfox needs more acceleration than a linebacker. but it should get that from quirks.

for example...

lets say a linebacker with a 390 engine and a kitfox with a 180 engine both have the same base acceleration of 60kph/s (for sake of argument, lets say the formula for acceleration is engine rating / tonnage * 10 = kph/s acceleration)

but then the kitfox also gets a +25% acceleration quirk on top of that. because its a slow light and needs the extra acceleration since it cant physically use a bigger engine to get the better acceleration. so the kitfox's acceleration would then be bumped upto 75kph/s.

thats how it should work. there should be a consistent baseline for ALL mechs and then quirks should be used in instances where a mech needs more acceleration than the baseline provides.


As for agility... bigger engines should still not give better agility. That was desynced for good reason. But bigger engines should give better acceleration. Since acceleration is based on the force output of the engine.

Edited by Khobai, 26 November 2017 - 02:50 PM.

[OrmsbyGore]

Khobai, on 26 November 2017 - 01:23 AM, said:

well either way they need to make the mobility tree more profitable for assaults. because its just not worth putting points into it now for most assaults.

also some of the slower assaults cannot physically clear the radius of an artillery thats dropped directly on them. thats a bit unfair.

the acceleration of slower assaults need to be substantially increased so they can clear the blast radius in time

conversely, I would settle for other weight classes not getting the full benefits of the survival tree; better yet, do away with the crap skill tree and allow player skill to be the only skill involved (a pipe dream, I know)

[SQW]

Stop trying to make Assaults move like a Heavy; if you want speed, go lighter.

The trick is to make armor sections consistent. If a LCT torso has three sections, then the CT of an ATLAS, which is about the same size, should also have three sections. The original battletech armor/dmg figures are designed with RNG in mind but with PGI's god-awful shooter mechanics, we need to think in pixels dimension as well as in raw numbers.

Make it so each section of a heavy/assault is separated further into mini-sections of 2/3 and you get a tankier mech that is still applicable to the existing MWO mechanics. The lights will have a harder time because their PPFLD is too small to breach the smaller sections consistently thus making heavier mechs with higher PPFLD a more efficient choice. Since you didn't buff the overall armor value x2/x3, your assault mech is now more survivable against lights while still vulnerable to heavier classes. Plus, if you are really an ace pilot, you can STILL core an Atlas in a LCT in the same time. Conversely, if you can twist properly, your Atlas will seem invincible.

Some non-pin point weapons will need a buff of course but hey, it's not like we are already living in the Golden Age of balance.

[OrmsbyGore]

xe N on, on 26 November 2017 - 06:29 AM, said:

....a thinking man's shooter ...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. This game somehow took the worst, most obnoxious and boring behavior from previous shooting games (camping) and turned it into the central (and some particularly frustrated players will claim only) gameplay mechanic.

xe N on, on 26 November 2017 - 06:52 AM, said:

.... to SRM brawling.

As long as maps keep getting bigger with more wide open spaces in the center, the only srm brawling that you are likely to see is by lights and mediums hunting assaults.

[OrmsbyGore]

xe N on, on 26 November 2017 - 09:54 AM, said:

Simply make artillery strike delay longer. Problem solved. And by this we might also experience less "Artillery strike Warrior online", which would be good too.

Or stop with consumables entirely. Again, pipe dream