183 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

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I would argue that neither here nor in tt assaults were particularly tanky, but ffs at least in tt assault carried enough firepower to destroy enemy before blowing up itself.

assaults were way more tanky in tt because of random hit locations. their arms and legs actually took hits for them instead of everything drilling their torsos.

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Those huge engines consume all the benefits of using a heavier chassis.

yep thats exactly the point I made a few posts ago. that fast assaults arnt as efficient as fast heavies because of how inefficient the larger sized engines are.

although laser vomit makes it far less of an issue for clans. because laser vomit is low tonnage and allows you to take a huge engine and still have a high alpha. thats why the linebacker is still such an amazing mech despite being completely overengined.

even though the linebacker has that huge 390 engine, the fact its loadout is entirely low tonnage lasers, means it can still have a powerful alpha despite being almost all engine.

its why laser vomit needs to be nerfed. it allows clan heavies to have both firepower and speed without giving anything up. A heavy mech that goes 81-97kph should have to sacrifice at least some firepower...

Edited by Khobai, 24 November 2017 - 01:03 PM.

[davoodoo]

Khobai, on 24 November 2017 - 12:56 PM, said:

assaults were way more tanky in tt because of random hit locations. their arms and legs actually took hits for them instead of everything drilling their torsos.

Yet still getting hit with ac20 into unarmored side torso was death sentence and even atlas ct had only 47armor while st 32 which dual uac20 or even our poor mrms could easily tear apart.

Edited by davoodoo, 24 November 2017 - 01:00 PM.

[Brain Cancer]

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What is this argumeny even about, team goes only as fast as slowest member.

Youll rush into enemy youll die outnumbered.
Youll leave slowest mechs behind theyll die and youll die outnumbered

Yet that's how QP functions. PUGs want to engage as fast as possible, will NASCAR whenever they can, and the side with slower robots gets gnawed on the backside while they either turn and die or try and catch up- and get dead from backshots.

This leads to assaults either having to overengine to survive and stay with the pack, or build slower and risk losing their firepower quickly when the front elements of the enemy team burn them within a minute of contact, the rest of the team inevitably continuing to circle the drain.

[Khobai]

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Yet still getting hit with ac20 into unarmored side torso was death sentence and even atlas ct had only 47armor while st 32 which dual uac20 or even our poor mrms could easily tear apart.

yes but the ac20 actually had to hit. there was a chance of missing outright unlike in MWO where you always hit if your aim is good. plus there were random hit locations, so you werent guaranteed to hit the torso. you would hit an arm or leg half the time.

UACs also rolled on the missile table so a lot of the time the second projectile missed outright too. MRMs were pretty crappy in tabletop too because of the accuracy penalty and missile table making their damage random. MRMs are way more deadly in MWO than they ever were in tabletop.

assaults were definitely way tankier in tabletop compared to MWO. especially if you stood in a heavy forest and stayed at medium to long range. hitting the assault was not always easy when you had a +4 or +6 to hit. MWO doesnt have range or terrain modifiers like tabletop did. In MWO assaults always get hit 100% of the time. an assault in the open for more than a few seconds is as good as dead.

Edited by Khobai, 24 November 2017 - 01:15 PM.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Fleeb the Mad, on 24 November 2017 - 12:53 PM, said:

A Warhawk or a Mad IIC with a 340 XL to match the Night Gyr's base speed has a total payload of around 43.5 tons. A Night Gyr has a payload of 40 tons.

Night Gyr is not the best example. Exception actually. Its agility is similar to that of a typical 90-tonner with armor of 75 tonner, so it does pay for that podspace a lot. More than it should in my opinion.

[davoodoo]

Khobai, on 24 November 2017 - 01:08 PM, said:

yes but the ac20 actually had to hit. there was a chance of missing outright unlike in MWO where you always hit if your aim is good. plus there were random hit locations, so you werent guaranteed to hit the torso. you would hit an arm or leg half the time.

UACs also rolled on the missile table so a lot of the time the second projectile missed outright too. MRMs were pretty crappy in tabletop too because of the accuracy penalty and missile table making their damage random. MRMs are way more deadly in MWO than they ever were in tabletop.

assaults were definitely way tankier in tabletop compared to MWO. especially if you stood in a heavy forest and stayed at medium to long range. hitting the assault was not always easy when you had a +4 or +6 to hit. MWO doesnt have range or terrain modifiers like tabletop did. In MWO assaults always get hit 100% of the time. an assault in the open for more than a few seconds is as good as dead.

Tankier than in mwo i agree, but again whether you hit arm side torso or leg, that part sustained heavy damage or was outright destroyed, while your weaponry also had random hit chance and locations.

But i specifically used dual uac20 as example because thats what custom kgcs were running during civil war era(or at least our gm was **** and didnt allow us to salvage anything better during our rpg sessions) and getting hit by that was death sentence for anythng lighter than assault and even assaults were heavily damaged.

Edited by davoodoo, 24 November 2017 - 01:27 PM.

[Brain Cancer]

Don't get me wrong- a single 20-point hit in TT can be enough to cripple or end a light, but a medium can actually survive multiple hits- as long as they don't hit the same spot. Ditto a heavy. Not for a LOT of hits- but then, the sustained punishment MWO robots take would be like if every shot was at short range. And able to target locations. I've had heavies walk away without internal damage from a twin UAC/20 double-tap that hit with all shells...but that was because it was three different limbs and a CT hit.

In MWO, that'd all focus on one spot with a convergence that would make Kai-Allard Liao pop a stiffy and turn your opponent into a shiny metal donut. Thus the attempt to compensate for razor-sharp aiming capacity with higher armor/structure counts.

[Fleeb the Mad]

Nema Nabojiv, on 24 November 2017 - 01:10 PM, said:

Night Gyr is not the best example. Exception actually. Its agility is similar to that of a typical 90-tonner with armor of 75 tonner, so it does pay for that podspace a lot. More than it should in my opinion.

For the sake of that comparison it works fine. It's a well regarded Clan heavy that has a speed range that matches many Clan assaults. You could also say the Warhawk's fixed heat sinks and fridge-like profile are also not counted against it, flaws which the Night Gyr doesn't have in addition to the ability to jump. It's not particularly fair to compare assaults to the majority of Clan heavies that run at 86kph, since the only basis for comparison there is the Gargoyle. In terms of tonnage, anything you can do with a Night Gyr you can do with an Orion IIC. It's just not particularly well regarded due to being an Orion.

The Night Gyr is a chassis with a good profile and hardpoints and is made to suffer in the one area it can be made to for having the best of all worlds.

However, if we want a cleaner example that's somewhat more lopsided let's look at the Marauder vs the Battlemaster. The Marauder is more agile in all respects.

A Marauder with a 300 Light and Endo Steel has a total payload of 36.5 tons. From the previous post the Battlemaster with a 340 Light and Endo has a payload of....36.5 tons. This, again, just to match the slowest base speed for a heavy mech. The fewer tonnage-saving technologies used the more the assault mech will lose out tonnage-wise. The difference in serviceability between the two chassis is down to profile, hardpoints and quirks, with maneuverability being exchanged for hit points.

While the point wasn't supposed to be the difference between Clan and IS tech, it still stands that gameplay that favors mobility and a certain speed limit will always be to the detriment of assault mechs. In order to use their advantages assault mechs generally have to be slower than any of their contemporaries.

[Brain Cancer]

The Night Gyr also pays in terms of critical space. Everything it builds is very cramped thanks to endo/ferro+locked jets in all configurations. That limits it in many ways- while it can mount decently for any given weapon type, it has to deal with trying to fit them in and making the tonnage work within the space provided.

It's why I Iike the Orion IIC, there's not only many options, but you can cut weight savers for space as needed.

Edited by Brain Cancer, 25 November 2017 - 10:24 PM.

[Grus]

I don't drop in 100's for a lot of those same reasons. But mostly because QP solo teams tend to no be responsive to calls for cover or help with a light mech.

[Y E O N N E]

Assaults remain the anvil around which an entire team's strategy is built.

But in an environment where there is no pre-made strategy (QP), they are not guaranteed to be any better than another weight class. That's all on the pilot. And, honestly? As 1 of 12 players? That's how it should be.

[Khobai]

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Assaults remain the anvil around which an entire team's strategy is built.

but no one wants to be the anvil when everyone else is the hammer

anvils !@#$ing die

I mean thats still a problem. assaults that do their job usually die. and they dont get rewarded for it either.

Edited by Khobai, 24 November 2017 - 05:25 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 24 November 2017 - 05:25 PM, said:

but no one wants to be the anvil when everyone else is the hammer

anvils !@#$ing die

I mean thats still a problem. assaults that do their job usually die. and they dont get rewarded for it either.

Lights that do their job also often die. Drag three 'Mechs away from the front so your team can clobber them in an 11 v 9 fight? No recognition, no reward, but still a crucial event even if it wasn't intentional.

Point is, it's QP. Things will happen the way they will happen. A good pilot makes the most of the hand that gets dealt that match. I see every category of 'Mech performing similarly well with roughly the same frequency in QP. I can't say Assaults appear to be hurting as a class and I can't say that Lights seem to be hurting as a class, either.

In an organized game though, things are different. Assaults dominate, Heavies are slaved to Assaults, and everything else runs interference.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Fleeb the Mad, on 24 November 2017 - 02:30 PM, said:

A Marauder with a 300 Light and Endo Steel has a total payload of 36.5 tons. From the previous post the Battlemaster with a 340 Light and Endo has a payload of....36.5 tons. This, again, just to match the slowest base speed for a heavy mech. The fewer tonnage-saving technologies used the more the assault mech will lose out tonnage-wise. The difference in serviceability between the two chassis is down to profile, hardpoints and quirks, with maneuverability being exchanged for hit points.

True, but does that makes battlemaster worse or less valuable than a marauder? It can make it worse for one's playstyle and that's it. And even with comparable firepower the HP difference is what determines who will win a hypothetical engagement. (again excluding border scenarios of two locust vs one assault)

[davoodoo]

Nema Nabojiv, on 24 November 2017 - 06:12 PM, said:

True, but does that makes battlemaster worse or less valuable than a marauder? It can make it worse for one's playstyle and that's it. And even with comparable firepower the HP difference is what determines who will win a hypothetical engagement. (again excluding border scenarios of two locust vs one assault)

Yes it matters, you pay 10 tons for what is essentially ton of armor.
Instead you could swap lets say griffin for a thunderbolt in your team or dropdeck.

Because of matchmaking and fw operating on tonnage you should always attempt to get best results at minimal weight.

Edited by davoodoo, 24 November 2017 - 06:48 PM.

[Khobai]

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Lights that do their job also often die.

huh? lights almost always have the option to retreat.

assaults dont. once they commit theres no retreating.

[R Valentine]

Yeonne Greene, on 24 November 2017 - 05:06 PM, said:

Assaults remain the anvil around which an entire team's strategy is built.

But in an environment where there is no pre-made strategy (QP), they are not guaranteed to be any better than another weight class. That's all on the pilot. And, honestly? As 1 of 12 players? That's how it should be.

SOME assaults. Only the assaults that can carry as good, or better firepower than their heavies are any useful to plan a strategy around. If they can't core an enemy mech out in two volleys or less then they're useless. An Ebon Jag will do what they do, only last longer and move quicker. And the reason any team ever lays out their plans around the assaults is because they're the slowest, so if you don't then they get left behind and insta-die while making no contribution to the game. If you could field and entire team of heavies or lighter in solo queue, people would. The nascary-er the better. Assaults are most definitely not a necessity.

[Shifty McSwift]

Something that has become very noticeable of late, to me at least and my level of expectation, is that a lot of (like most of them these days) assaults just don't know what they "should" be doing, they mill about confused and play terribly, which would seem to me to be a sign that they are new to the role, which they quickly realise can't do what they want very well etc.

Unbelievable amounts of games where the last mech(s) is a hiding barely scratched assault, who missed all the team actions, or one who sits at a single ledge/in a hole all game, expecting enemies to walk into his deathcannons for him. So many times watching assaults reverse face stare fire until they just fall over dead, as though they just don't know what else to do etc.

I would like to think it is because they are new to the role, as most "veteran" assaults have just given up on it for more meta mechs.

[Nema Nabojiv]

davoodoo, on 24 November 2017 - 06:44 PM, said:

Yes it matters, you pay 10 tons for what is essentially ton of armor.
Instead you could swap lets say griffin for a thunderbolt in your team or dropdeck.

We dont decide what MM will put in the team. Can as well get a ERLL raven and lurm supernova and they will absolutely make less use than any proper assault.

[Khobai]

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We dont decide what MM will put in the team. Can as well get a ERLL raven and lurm supernova and they will absolutely make less use than any proper assault.

yeah but thats all part of the problem

matchmaker doesnt even try to match tonnage or quality of mechs

all matchmaker cares about is player tiers, and even tier levels arnt a good indication of player skill.

the only thing matchmaker actually does is keep the newest players from having to play veterans.

its useless for actually balancing teams.

Edited by Khobai, 25 November 2017 - 03:20 AM.