79 replies to this topic

[davoodoo]

Khobai, on 23 November 2017 - 12:40 PM, said:

No.

1) it makes standard autocannons obsolete. Right now standard ACs are for punching armor.

2) LBX have no ghost heat, and putting ghost heat on LBX would make firing cluster rounds pointless, since the only thing that makes cluster rounds somewhat viable is not having ghost heat.

3) it diminishes the whole purpose of LBX which is to be crit seeking/internal structure destroying weapon (and quite frankly LBX should be better at that then it currently is). LBX is not supposed to be good at punching through armor.

4) charge mechanic is !@#$ing awful. we need less of it not more.

So basically lbx sux really badly but we take it because ghost heat killed normal acs.
You see no problem here do you??

[Khobai]

Quote

So basically lbx sux really badly but we take it because ghost heat killed normal acs.
You see no problem here do you??

the game is better with ghost heated ACs than it was without them

people abused them thats why they got ghost heated. its not like they got ghost heat for no reason lol.

the problem is ghost heat doesnt treat all weapons equally. there are still exploitable loopholes like laser vomit. if laser vomit was just as oppressed by ghost heat as everything else is, it would be fine. balance is entirely relative afterall, ACs are only bad now because something else is better.

that was the whole purpose of energy draw, to try and give us a form of ghost heat that was consistently applied to all weapon combinations and had no loopholes. unfortunately energy draw was abandoned and the current ghost heat system still has loopholes.

but even when ACs werent ghost heated, LBX still sucked and needed a buff. So either way LBX needs a buff.

Edited by Khobai, 23 November 2017 - 02:20 PM.

[davoodoo]

abuse
to use something for the wrong purpose in a way that is harmful or morally wrong

if we qualify ppl putting firepower that they could on their mechs as abuse now...
no someone arbitrary decided that x amount of damage is too much because of mechanics they put in game, dont put it on community...

Edited by davoodoo, 23 November 2017 - 02:30 PM.

[Koniving]

JackalBeast, on 23 November 2017 - 06:54 AM, said:

I'm going a bit Sixth here I know, but here me out.
What if because of how lock obviously changes the mechanics of missile spread and trajectory, etc. could be used to alter the spread behavior of Lbxes? That's to say, we know at this point of the apparent inability to make switchable ammo, I'm proposing a compromise of sorts; one which might just require a simple edit.
On lock with target, reduce lbx spread to 0(or 0.1 or 0.2) I would think a 0 spread would be fine, but in the case of making slight different than the AC10 of both sides.
Bear in mind when commenting this is to present a feasible or workable alternative to the current and imo incomplete lbx cannons that would also actually increase their performance. We can talk about reticules later lol.
Thoughts?

We could go even further from the canon...

Or we could simply go back to canon.
The LBX is a larger (and by that I mean longer) shell that has a flak-like proximity fuse, triggering the release of multiple small cluster bombs, each one effectively the same destructive power as an LRM in a scatter burst pattern utilizing the original projectile's already existing momentum.

In other words it fires as one projectile. When within a SET range of the intended target or A Target (take your pick, one implies it will detonate in X range of where the intended target was, the other won't detonate until in the X range of anyone), it releases the "LBX pellets" we know from MWO, which then explode on impact.

(The basic result of this is you fire the projectile, it's super accurate to whatever range with no spread until it hits within, say, 20 meters of the target and then you get the "LBX shotgun" effect of MWO, fired from that position asi you are within 20 meters, rather than from 600+, allowing you to utilize the accurate range as advertised rather than just saying "it works out to this range...even if it is worthless at it.")

No muss, no fuss, no boohonkey and no more made up ********.

Edited by Koniving, 23 November 2017 - 02:44 PM.

[Khobai]

not having ghost heat on ACs was harmful thats why they added ghost heat to them

and no it wasnt an arbitrary decision at all lmao

people were straight up abusing autocannon builds

we had clan assaults with like four UAC10s that were ridiculous. especially at the prenerfed level of the UAC10 with the lower heat and lower jam rate. you could fire it all day without overheating. good riddance to that.

now the scariest clan assault brawlers are probably scorch or spiritbear. which are scary but actually balanced.

Edited by Khobai, 23 November 2017 - 02:36 PM.

[davoodoo]

Koniving, on 23 November 2017 - 02:32 PM, said:

We could go even further from the canon...

Or we could simply go back to canon.
The LBX is a larger (and by that I mean longer) shell that has a flak-like proximity fuse, triggering the release of multiple small cluster bombs, each one effectively the same destructive power as an LRM in a scatter burst pattern utilizing the original projectile's already existing momentum.

In other words it fires as one projectile. When within a SET range of the intended target or A Target (take your pick, one implies it will detonate in X range of where the intended target was, the other won't detonate until in the X range of anyone), it releases the "LBX pellets" we know from MWO, which then explode on impact.

No muss, no fuss, no boohonkey and no more made up ********.

Its not like it would be hard to implement since we already have essentially same mechanic for cerppc

Khobai, on 23 November 2017 - 02:33 PM, said:

not having ghost heat on ACs was harmful thats why they added ghost heat to them

and no it wasnt an arbitrary decision at all lmao

people were straight up abusing autocannon builds

we had clan mechs with like four UAC10s that were ridiculous. especially at the prenerfed level of the UAC10. you could fire it all day without overheating.

that was relatively recent, ghost heat was a thing way before and quad uac10 was do devastating precisely because you couldnt bring comparable laservomit due to ghost heat...

you are using ghost heat to justify ghost heat...thats nothing more than circular argument.

Edited by davoodoo, 23 November 2017 - 02:38 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

that was relatively recent, ghost heat was a thing way before and quad uac10 was do devastating precisely because you couldnt bring comparable laservomit due to ghost heat...

yes and the solution now is stricter ghost heat on laservomit by linking large and medium lasers for ghost heat,
not remove ghost heat on autocannons

ghost heat needs to equally oppress ALL weapons with no possibility for loopholes

thats the only way it will achieve what its supposed to do which is keep TTK at a reasonable level

Edited by Khobai, 23 November 2017 - 02:40 PM.

[Insanity09]

Charge to choke could work IF just hitting the trigger fired without any choke at all. And sure, hold the choke too long, the weapon goes into cooldown.
I'd further suggest that with such a cumbersome mechanic, the choke value, spread reduction, would need to be at least 25% at full value, perhaps as much as 50%.

Obviously, the skill nodes would then need to be changed, either to charge time reduction, or allowing you to hold the charge time for longer without triggering the cooldown, most likely the latter.

Actually, now that I think about this a little more, such a change would actually make LBX's nifty to use.

[Koniving]

davoodoo, on 23 November 2017 - 02:36 PM, said:

Its not like it would be hard to implement since we already have essentially same mechanic for cerppc

C ER PPC has a basic "If hit here, then put 2.5 damage here and there. IF hit there, put 2.5 damage here and there. If hit over here, ONLY put 2.5 damage on this side."

It's an extremely complicated and very bad system which has a lot of hit registration failures due to its script heavy nature.

As for implementing what the original poster said... the CERPPC is nothing like it.

What the original poster proposed is "I lock you like a missile and fire my LBX, now there's very little spread." Completely different.

And if you meant the CERPPC compared to my idea... then it's still got nothing similar.
It would be fire projectile. IF projectile enters proximity of a valid target, Save momentum, now simultaneously Spawn projectiles, transfer momentum but apply a 'spreading' push and delete original projectile.

No matter which way you look at it, there's nothing similar about the CER PPC and either concept.

Now I could see you meaning something like "Fire projectile, hit enemy with projectile, create goofy damage pattern and say "scatter shot"..." But again lets be honest over 20% of the time Clan ER PPCs don't register. However almost 100% of the time current LBX does register, so using the C ER PPC mechanic to create the idea would ultimately downgrade the weapon's effectiveness.

Edited by Koniving, 23 November 2017 - 02:52 PM.

[Khobai]

CERPPC should just do 15 damage

[davoodoo]

Khobai, on 23 November 2017 - 02:38 PM, said:

yes and the solution now is stricter ghost heat on laservomit by linking large and medium lasers for ghost heat,
not remove ghost heat on autocannons

ghost heat needs to equally oppress ALL weapons with no possibility for loopholes

thats the only way it will achieve what its supposed to do which is keep TTK at a reasonable level

doubling down on system which cant be falsified due to justifying its own existence.

im yet to see ghost heat fixing any problems in the game, you could link all weapons in the game and you will be left with eternal problem of 30 damage large lasers being superior to 30 damage medium lasers and gauss being superior to ppc due to low heat.
This was exactly the problem that plagues energy draw and was never resolved even after heavy nerfing of heavier weapons.

Edited by davoodoo, 23 November 2017 - 02:52 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 23 November 2017 - 02:51 PM, said:

CERPPC should just do 15 damage

lolno

[Jay Leon Hart]

Khobai, on 23 November 2017 - 02:51 PM, said:

CERPPC should just do 15 damage

It does do 15 damage. It should not do 15 pinpoint. Just add the EERPPC.

[davoodoo]

Koniving, on 23 November 2017 - 02:49 PM, said:

C ER PPC has a basic "If hit here, then put 2.5 damage here and there. IF hit there, put 2.5 damage here and there. If hit over here, ONLY put 2.5 damage on this side."

It's an extremely complicated and very bad system which has a lot of hit registration failures due to its script heavy nature.

As for implementing what the original poster said... the CERPPC is nothing like it.

What the original poster proposed is "I lock you like a missile and fire my LBX, now there's very little spread." Completely different.

And if you meant the CERPPC compared to my idea... then it's still got nothing similar.
It would be fire projectile. IF projectile enters proximity of a valid target, Save momentum, now simultaneously Spawn projectiles, transfer momentum but apply a 'spreading' push and delete original projectile.

No matter which way you look at it, there's nothing similar about the CER PPC and either concept.

Now I could see you meaning something like "Fire projectile, hit enemy with projectile, create goofy damage pattern and say "scatter shot"..." But again lets be honest over 20% of the time Clan ER PPCs don't register. However almost 100% of the time current LBX does register, so using the C ER PPC mechanic to create the idea would ultimately downgrade the weapon's effectiveness.

i would argue that end effect assuming bug free implementation would be the same.
Most damage being put in hit location with rest being randomly spread around.

[Khobai]

it should do 15 pinpoint damage. not splash.

and EERPPC is garbage, nobody wants that.

I mean if we can have lasers that do 18 damage and weigh 4 tons and can be fired as part of 80 damage alphas, we can have a CERPPC that does 15 PPFLD damage, and is ghost heat limited to 2.

Quote

im yet to see ghost heat fixing any problems in the game, you could link all weapons in the game and you will be left with eternal problem of 30 damage large lasers being superior to 30 damage medium lasers and gauss being superior to ppc due to low heat.

the only reason clan gauss is superior is because CERPPC doesnt do 15 pinpoint damage like it should.

and IS PPC are bad too they could use buffs as well.

Edited by Khobai, 23 November 2017 - 03:00 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 23 November 2017 - 02:55 PM, said:

it should do 15 pinpoint damage. not splash.

and EERPPC is garbage, nobody wants that.

I mean if we can have lasers that 18 damage and weigh 4 tons we can have a CERPPC that does 15 damage.

1. The Clan HLL is overpowered, do not use it as the baseline.

2. The 15 PPFLD CERPPC would be even more OP because of having nearly double range and of course being PPFLD instead of long burn duration.

[Khobai]

Quote

1. The Clan HLL is overpowered, do not use it as the baseline.

but laser vomit is overpowered and HLL is a big part of that

if 80 damage laser vomit is okay than 15 PPFLD damage cerppc with rebalanced heat/range is fine too

Quote

The 15 PPFLD CERPPC would be even more OP because of having nearly double range and of course being PPFLD instead of long burn duration.

yeah but obviously it would need to be rebalanced around being 15 PPFLD.

give it more heat (like 16-17 heat) and give it back its canon range of 690m. It never shouldve been 810m.

CERPPC could easily be balanced at 15 pinpoint damage.

Edited by Khobai, 23 November 2017 - 03:07 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 23 November 2017 - 03:02 PM, said:

yeah but obviously it would need to be rebalanced around being 15 PPFLD.

give it more heat and give it back its canon range of 690m. It never shouldve been 810m.

CERPPC could easily be balanced at 15 pinpoint damage.

It would have to generate something like 18+ heat to make that work, because even at 14.5 heat with splash it just poops all over every type of IS PPC.

Edited by FupDup, 23 November 2017 - 03:04 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

It would have to generate something like 18+ heat to make that work, because even at 14.5 heat with splash it just poops all over every type of IS PPC.

because the IS PPCs are bad too. And SNPPC is !@#4ing terrible.

they need buffs as well

im fine with buffing IS PPCs but I also think its time to unleash the 15 damage CERPPC in all its unadulterated glory. its what the people want.

its not like I just wanna buff the CERPPC and nothing else. All PPCs across the board pretty much need buffs. they dont compete with laser vomit.



your logic is ridiculous. its like saying a CLBX is overpowered because it poops all over every ISLBX.

both types of LBX need buffs.

Edited by Khobai, 23 November 2017 - 03:19 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 23 November 2017 - 03:09 PM, said:

because the IS PPCs are bad too. And SNPPC is !@#4ing terrible.

they need buffs as well

im fine with buffing IS PPCs but I also think its time to unleash the 15 damage CERPPC in all its unadulterated glory. its what the people want.

Sometimes "the people" are stupid.

Khobai, on 23 November 2017 - 03:09 PM, said:

its not like I just wanna buff the CERPPC and nothing else. All PPCs across the board pretty much need buffs. they dont compete with laser vomit.

The Clan ERPPC is actually a pretty nice counter to laser vomit because it can make favorable trades thanks to its PPFLD nature (low to no exposure). It's a very good gun as it is.

Yeah IS Peepers need some buffs but it would take absurd levels of buffing to make them equal to the 15 PPFLD CERPPC.

Khobai, on 23 November 2017 - 03:09 PM, said:

your logic is ridiculous. its like saying a CLBX is overpowered because it poops all over every ISLBX.

both types of LBX need buffs.

That comparison is not equal to the PPC comparison because the CERPPC is actually legit good on its own merits. It's not just "less underpowered" than the IS.