92 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Do a lot of 1 v 1 duels. There's 2 tricks for covering legs - one is hull down - keep to low cover you can shoot over but covers your legs. Hills are good for that. Or stay on a decline, a low position relative to your target.

Also there's twisting. If your right leg is damaged keep the enemy on your left. If you have your left leg on the side the enemy is on it shields your right leg.

In the end however the best defense is always a good offense. Kill them before they leg you and if you're getting focused use your Clans numerous JJs to bounce out of line of fire.

In IS mechs? Well, you're probably fine because a lot of Clan pilots take absolute **** builds and weapons that can't aim like LRMs and Streaks.

[ANOM O MECH]

Khobai, on 23 November 2017 - 11:36 PM, said:

um. thats the whole point. to eliminate legging as a viable tactic for killing mechs.

and people would still leg mechs. Its significantly easier to kill a legged light than a non-legged light.

but youd be legging mechs for the RIGHT REASON (preventing them from escaping or evading damage) not the WRONG REASON (as a way of killing mechs them because legs are often easier to hit and less armored than torsos)



because thats how it works in battletech: if you lose your CT your mech gets destroyed. if you lose both legs your mech isnt destroyed.

this game is supposed to be like battletech. and one of the major ways its not like battetech is that your mech is destroyed when you lose both legs.

so yeah thats the grievance. it really is as simple as that: its not battletechesque.



shooting legs always objectively being the right choice is worse. like scout mode now theres really no reason not to shoot legs. it completely diminishes the fact mechs even have torsos when all you have to do is shoot the legs.

The game is supposed to be like Battletech. Like the games before it, it is not exactly the same as TT rules do not port over well to the game. So like some of the other games in the universe, this game legging takes out the mech. It makes a lot of sense that a mech without legs is done.

Also if this change where made, only really terrible players would leg mechs. Anyone competitent wouldn't. There would be unintended consequences as well such as players not putting as much armour on legs to increase ammo or weight for weapons.

Oh and especially, this would be an indirect nerf to lights as it is not always possible to hit a mechs back. I run a lot of light and medium mechs that don't have the firepower to take out torsos and legging is the best strategy often. So again anything that would make lighter mechs even less viable is not really up for debate and this idea should be thrown out completely due to lack of any real merit or anything that would be a positive addition to the game.

[ANOM O MECH]

Khobai, on 24 November 2017 - 10:08 AM, said:

and if they readd knockdowns, the mech should automatically get knocked down if it loses both legs.

but you should also be able to get back up from being knocked down. because it wouldnt be fun being a bilateral amputee. nobody wants to be paralyzed and not be able to shoot. thats not fun. even in battletech if youve lost both legs you can still fire weapons out of one arm. the only way you can really do something similar to that in MWO is to allow the mech to stand back up.

but once youve lost one or both legs it should be very easy to knock you back down again. anything that would make you take a piloting check should automatically knock you down.

there is no logical reason why destroying both legs destroys a mech though. theyre not a critical system. its not like the mech has its fusion reactor in its legs. the critical parts of a mech are the head and the torso sections, destroying those should be the only way to destroy a mech.

Yeah then there is no logical reason for your idea of legged mech to be able get back up either.

[Dimento Graven]

dario03, on 24 November 2017 - 05:05 PM, said:

Oh I see what your saying. I'm just changing some of the words in your statements to show that your reasoning against things you don't want can be applied to the things you do want and vice versa. Saying knockdowns is fine because teamwork counters it is fine, but saying that lights shouldn't be able to block even though teamwork counters it.

That's just it "team work" doesn't really counter a light moving at well over 100kph, running in jamming its face against another 'mech, alpha'ing and repeating.

Why? Craptastic hit detection, hit boxes, HSR etc. all regularly give lights a more than unreasonable level of "to hit" difficulty.

We all have seen those incidents where a light blazes through 4, 5, 6 or more of the enemy, all of them shooting at it, and the light comes away with very little damage. Unlike ANY OTHER 'mech in this game. It doesn't happen with slower or larger mediums, and it sure as heck doesn't happen with heavies or assaults.

That, PLUS, the issue of the light being jammed up against a friendly, again, due to the craptastic HSR, hit reg, hit boxes in this game, your team is more than likely going to end up doing more damage to you than the offending light when it's jammed up against you.

There really is no REASONABLE counter to this exploitive tactic (not abusive, exploitive, as it exploits several weaknesses in this game). It is not reasonable and totally counter-immersive to allow a light 'mech to charge in at full speed on a larger 'mech, collide ITSELF against said larger 'mech, continuously accelerate against that larger 'mech, and take extremely little collision damage.

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And lights do risk a lot if they block. Not moving makes you an easy target for any other mech or the mech you are blocking depending on its weapons.

Except for they're typically blocking BEHIND friendlies, putting themselves BEHIND another 'mech such that it's not possible to hit it without hitting your friendly.

This exploit also is a small part of the issue why Escort game mode is not as good as it could be. A 20 ton light can block and at the very lest significantly slow down (if not completely stop) the VIP to prevent it from reaching the drop ship location. The 100 ton Atlas should be doing significant damage to the blocker, just through collision damage but of course PGI, "Programming is hard..."

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And the topic talks about TT but I never said anything about it. My suggestion was to go back how it was in early MWO, 50% when legged, or maybe a little slower.

Several people were quoting TT for why losing both legs should not result in death. I was responding to those people too trying to get across that the current MWO process for handling lost legs is MORE than lenient.

No need to make it so lenient it's practically meaningless.

[Y E O N N E]

Sounds like somebody has had too many close encounters with Yoki Lin.

[Vlad Striker]

Well it's not effective tactics against med+ mecs (except new chasis where is bad tuned hit-boxec nullify incoming damage) because one leg have as much hit-points as center torso. So when you try to kill one leg opponent just punch throw your CT. Legging _seems_ effective in scouting because whole damned enemy lance shoot your only leg. But it is stupid because they can kill your mech it CT twice faster. But not. They shoot legs. It's annoying.

[MischiefSC]

Except you can twist off CT damage, much harder to twist off leg damage.

[YueFei]

MischiefSC, on 25 November 2017 - 07:38 AM, said:

Also there's twisting. If your right leg is damaged keep the enemy on your left. If you have your left leg on the side the enemy is on it shields your right leg.

One nuance to take a look at: if you're shielding your right leg with your left, and corner peeking to the right, when you take a step backward to get into cover, which leg is the plant leg and which is the moving leg? Do you plant the left and step back with the right leg? Or vice-versa? Is it even reliably controllable by the player as to which foot goes back first?

Imagine it's the right leg which is the plant foot, and you swing the left leg back first. Someone can shoot your right foot which will remain planted in the ground for a moment. The slower the mech, the longer that right foot will remain planted and exposed to be shot at. If you're the shooter, and your target is trying to shield a bad leg, maybe this is one of those things you can take advantage of.

Can a player manipulate which leg they lead with, whether going forward or in reverse?

[MischiefSC]

YueFei, on 25 November 2017 - 03:52 PM, said:

One nuance to take a look at: if you're shielding your right leg with your left, and corner peeking to the right, when you take a step backward to get into cover, which leg is the plant leg and which is the moving leg? Do you plant the left and step back with the right leg? Or vice-versa? Is it even reliably controllable by the player as to which foot goes back first?

Imagine it's the right leg which is the plant foot, and you swing the left leg back first. Someone can shoot your right foot which will remain planted in the ground for a moment. The slower the mech, the longer that right foot will remain planted and exposed to be shot at. If you're the shooter, and your target is trying to shield a bad leg, maybe this is one of those things you can take advantage of.

Can a player manipulate which leg they lead with, whether going forward or in reverse?

Nope. If legged, don't corner poke. Hill jump. Or st east use the small rises and obstacles to cover your legs. Drifts on Frozen for example. Look for it, there's lots cover on every map. That or ambush predator - Stay around a corner, let them come to you. Don't poke - you're too slow. Target info delay gives you 2 alphas before they k ow which of your legs to shoot. Don't walk - it gives away being legged. When legged your goal becomes maximizing damage before you go down. When legged it's better to try and make so.eone just face tank you.

[YueFei]

MischiefSC, on 25 November 2017 - 04:12 PM, said:

Nope. If legged, don't corner poke. Hill jump. Or st east use the small rises and obstacles to cover your legs. Drifts on Frozen for example. Look for it, there's lots cover on every map. That or ambush predator - Stay around a corner, let them come to you. Don't poke - you're too slow. Target info delay gives you 2 alphas before they k ow which of your legs to shoot. Don't walk - it gives away being legged. When legged your goal becomes maximizing damage before you go down. When legged it's better to try and make so.eone just face tank you.

The context of this is with a mech with a damaged leg, not a legged mech. Look at the portion of your post which I was replying to. The example you gave is that you have a damaged right leg (not a destroyed right leg), and are attempting to shield it with your left leg, to avoid letting the enemy destroy your right leg and ruin your mobility.

In that context, it may be useful to know which leg steps forward/backward first, or to know if it's possible to manipulate which leg you lead with.

Conversely, if you're the shooter, and you're going up against someone that you know is nursing an injured leg and attempting to shield it, you might be able to take advantage of knowing which leg the mech leads with when going forward or in reverse, and aiming at the foot to destroy the injured leg.

[MischiefSC]

YueFei, on 26 November 2017 - 11:43 AM, said:

The context of this is with a mech with a damaged leg, not a legged mech. Look at the portion of your post which I was replying to. The example you gave is that you have a damaged right leg (not a destroyed right leg), and are attempting to shield it with your left leg, to avoid letting the enemy destroy your right leg and ruin your mobility.

In that context, it may be useful to know which leg steps forward/backward first, or to know if it's possible to manipulate which leg you lead with.

Conversely, if you're the shooter, and you're going up against someone that you know is nursing an injured leg and attempting to shield it, you might be able to take advantage of knowing which leg the mech leads with when going forward or in reverse, and aiming at the foot to destroy the injured leg.

Ah. Got it.

It doesn't let you control what goes forward, it just alternates. You can't see what your last leg forward was. Normally when you stop it tested to right leg forward first I think.

[mouser42]

new anti legging clan mech for scouting

[YueFei]

MischiefSC, on 26 November 2017 - 11:46 AM, said:

Ah. Got it.

It doesn't let you control what goes forward, it just alternates. You can't see what your last leg forward was. Normally when you stop it tested to right leg forward first I think.

I just tested it on the Hunchback-4SP. As far as I can tell, when going forward, it always plants the right leg down and leads with the left leg, but when going in reverse, it plants the left leg and swings the right leg back. It seems to do this regardless of whether you're in the middle of striding with the left or the right leg, which leads to some rather unnatural looking animations with the feet sliding along the ground in order to force the plant leg to be either the right (going forward) or the left (when going backward). My testing wasn't super rigorous. I think to be rigorous would require the use of macros to reproduce timings in throttle direction change more precisely. But I tried variations in timing of the throttle direction change at different points in the stride animation cycle, and it didn't seem to make any difference.

Basically if you're in a Hunchback-4SP, and you're nursing an injured right leg, it's easier to shield it while cornering to the right. You plant the right foot and lead with the left leg to go forward out of cover, and you lead plant the left foot and lead with the right leg when reversing. However, if it's an injured left leg you're nursing, you leave it more exposed if cornering to the left. You probably still want to corner to the right, but you'll have to come out of cover by going in reverse to the right, and go forward to get back into cover.

I don't know if this animation sequence applies universally to all mechs. If it does, and this quirk of stride sequence can be taken advantage of by an enemy shooting for your weak leg.... then when nursing a bad leg, you'll always prefer to corner on the right side. If it's a bad right leg, you just corner on the right as you would normally. If it's a bad left leg, you'll corner on the right but you'll want to emerge from cover in reverse, and re-enter cover going forward.