Jump to content

I'm Really Not Liking The Legging


92 replies to this topic

#41 TWIAFU

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Pest
  • The Pest
  • 4,011 posts
  • LocationBell's Brewery, MI

Posted 24 November 2017 - 07:24 AM

View PostKhobai, on 23 November 2017 - 11:36 PM, said:


because thats how it works in battletech: if you lose your CT your mech gets destroyed. if you lose both legs your mech isnt destroyed.

this game is supposed to be like battletech. and one of the major ways its not like battetech is that your mech is destroyed when you lose both legs.

so yeah thats the grievance. it really is as simple as that: its not battletechesque.




Ok, so make it like BT. Loose both legs, your on the ground. Only able to use one arm weapon as other is used to prop yourself up.

Since we dont have fall down, make it so you just cannot move at all, like in BT.

There you go, no auto destruction AND just like BT.

As per TT rules;


Firing When Down

A BattleMech that has fallen or dropped to the ground may
fire some of its weapons as long as neither of its arms has been
destroyed.The pilot uses one arm to support the BattleMech as
it fires,so the weapons on that arm cannot fire.The pilot may fire
all the weapons mounted on the other arm, and the BattleMech
may fire any weapons mounted in its head or torso. A prone
BattleMech may not fire its leg-mounted weapons.Add a +2 tohit
modifier for firing when down.

Leg Destruction

When a BattleMech loses one leg,either through a critical hit
or the destruction of the leg’s internal structure,the BattleMech
automatically falls. An immediate Piloting Skill Roll with a +5
modifier is made (plus any modifiers for other damage; the +5
modifier for leg destruction replaces all pre-existing modifiers
for damage to that leg),to avoid damaging the MechWarrior.
In subsequent turns,the BattleMech may attempt to stand
on its remaining leg, but the pilot must add a +5 modifier to
the Piloting Skill Roll plus any modifiers for other damage. If
the BattleMech manages to stand, it has a Walking MP of 1 and
cannot run. To take into account the missing leg, add +5 to any
Piloting Skill Roll made thereafter.The BattleMech may still jump
(minus the power of the jump jets on the missing leg), but the
pilot must make a Piloting Skill Roll each time the ’Mech lands.
For purposes of attacker movement, such an attempt to
stand is considered a run. If the 'Mech stays prone, it can still
change its facing on hexside per turn; it is considered to have
walked if it changes its facing.

Leg Blown Off (Leg)

This critical hit occurs when the player rolls a result of 12 on
the Determining Critical Hits Table when the location hit is a leg.
When a BattleMech’s leg is blown off, the ’Mech automatically
falls and takes normal falling damage,though it might be able to
stand up again. See Leg Destruction, p. 28. The leg may be picked
up and used as a club per the rules for Club Attacks, p. 33.

Edited by TWIAFU, 24 November 2017 - 07:27 AM.


#42 Asym

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Nova Captain
  • 2,186 posts

Posted 24 November 2017 - 08:29 AM

View PostKing Harkinian, on 23 November 2017 - 03:07 PM, said:

this isn't monty python online, it's mechwarrior online

cmon now ppl

Well said ! Oh my, I haven't had a good laugh in a long time....well done ! You should have included the video!!!

What a sily discussion: with the weapons we are using, destroying a single leg should be fatal......how could the gyros compensate weight distribution even standing still? Come on guys, lose a leg and you are done......fall over....and, if you don't immediaely eject, you are dead and have to wait an entire gameday till you reincarnate....

Lose both legs and fight on................oh please.

#43 Nightbird

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The God of Death
  • The God of Death
  • 7,518 posts

Posted 24 November 2017 - 08:32 AM

This thread is funny, if you can't protect your legs you derserve to die just as if you can't protect your CT, ST.

#44 Khobai

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 23,969 posts

Posted 24 November 2017 - 09:16 AM

Quote

This thread is funny, if you can't protect your legs you derserve to die just as if you can't protect your CT, ST.


why? legs arnt a critical system... why would a mech be destroyed if it loses its leg?

it makes no sense. itd be like if a tank exploded when it lost its treads.

when in reality a tank thats lost its treads is still basically a fixed emplacement.

Obviously you can shield your damaged leg, thats not the point. The point is it makes no sense, it ruins immersion, and the game can do a better job of being more like battletech.

Quote

What a sily discussion: with the weapons we are using, destroying a single leg should be fatal......how could the gyros compensate weight distribution even standing still?


its not fatal in battletech, why should it be fatal in MWO? losing both legs shouldnt even be fatal. Not just from a battletech standpoint but from a reallife standpoint too. there is no vehicle in existence that explodes if it loses its treads, wheels, etc...

Quote

Since we dont have fall down, make it so you just cannot move at all, like in BT.


no. because you can aim specifically for legs in MWO. MWO doesnt have random hit locations in battletech. the penalties can afford to be steeper in battletech because you cant aim for specific locations. MWO shouldnt really have the same level of penalties because its much easier to blow off specific components.

its the same reason ISXL is good in tabletop but turned out so terrible in MWO. because you can aim to take out side torsos. thats a mistake that shouldnt be repeated.

Edited by Khobai, 24 November 2017 - 09:30 AM.


#45 Brain Cancer

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The 1 Percent
  • 3,851 posts

Posted 24 November 2017 - 09:19 AM

Tip the tank till it's over on one side/front/back. Is it combat effective at that point?

It's not like you shoot the legs off and the robot has a stable, immobile platform. It's flopped. If it's not lucky, it's flopped on a hill and decided to roll downhill and lawn dart for good measure.

#46 YueFei

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,184 posts

Posted 24 November 2017 - 09:27 AM

View PostTrissila, on 23 November 2017 - 09:37 PM, said:

A 'mech must generally expose its STs to make shots, but almost every 'mech can make hill-cresting shots without exposing the legs. Many of them are capable of making corner-shots without leg exposure, as well.


I want to learn how to do this, can you elaborate? Unless this is some sort of secret jutsu of yours or something that you don't want to share...

Does it involve deliberate use of jump jets to spaz out your hitboxes when cornering?

Or is it something like you lean the mech forward so your legs don't show, and then free-look to shoot with one arm's weapons (requires lower-arm actuators)? This one is pure imagination on my part, I've never actually seen anyone do that. I suppose if it can be done, it probably requires deliberate investment into Torso Pitch in the Skill Tree to be able to lean forward enough?

Or is it some other kind of geometrical / perspective trick?

#47 Celtic Warrior

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Death Wish
  • The Death Wish
  • 507 posts
  • LocationClan Wolf Operations - Tukayyid - Honolulu HI

Posted 24 November 2017 - 09:32 AM

I say remove legs from all mechs problem solved.

#48 Alkabides

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Big Daddy
  • Big Daddy
  • 217 posts

Posted 24 November 2017 - 09:46 AM

I do miss the knock down mechanic from the MW series..... ohhh hi little locust... suck on these 4 ppc's.... now stand up and take your beating like a true born !! Hahaha. Not sure how knock down would work now but it's a part of the old games I miss.

Edited by Alkabides, 24 November 2017 - 09:47 AM.


#49 Dimento Graven

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Guillotine
  • Guillotine
  • 6,208 posts

Posted 24 November 2017 - 10:02 AM

I'm sorry, all I'm reading here is:

"blah blah blah, it's not fun when I get legged, blah blah blah, change it so I can fight with no legs, so I don't have to sit and watch others play, or exit the match and select another 'mech to get legged in the next match..."

This is MWO, while based on BT, it's not absolutely subject to its rules.

Two truths we have to admit to, and if you can't admit to them, you're probably an immature **** who should probably grow the F up:

Is BEING legged fun? Not specifically, no.

Is legging SOMEONE ELSE fun? You bet your ***!

Question: Why is it light and medium 'mechs typically tend die very quickly after losing a leg?
Answer: The speed at which they typically move, plus, their questionable hit boxes, plus, the game engine's craptastic hit detection, plus, the general gaming populous's inability to aim very well, pretty much guarantee that by the time a light loses a leg, pretty much EVERY OTHER hit location is going to be very open and one-shotable. Once the leg is gone, the speed aspect mentioned above goes away and everything else becomes mitigated and this results in an "easy target".

As far as the mentions of knock down, I've long been an advocate for bringing it back. The reports of issues with it were highly exaggerated, all vids I've seen of it had minimal if any teleporting, warping or the like.

This would be a great way for tall heavies and assaults to ensure that those itty bitty lights that jam themselves into the taller, larger 'mechs have an actual risk for such a stupid, unskilled tactic, especially considering most heavies/assaults aren't allowed to bend low enough, or twist/turn fast enough to target the light that's lodged itself in their backend.

#50 Khobai

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 23,969 posts

Posted 24 November 2017 - 10:08 AM

Quote

It's not like you shoot the legs off and the robot has a stable, immobile platform.


and if they readd knockdowns, the mech should automatically get knocked down if it loses both legs.

but you should also be able to get back up from being knocked down. because it wouldnt be fun being a bilateral amputee. nobody wants to be paralyzed and not be able to shoot. thats not fun. even in battletech if youve lost both legs you can still fire weapons out of one arm. the only way you can really do something similar to that in MWO is to allow the mech to stand back up.

but once youve lost one or both legs it should be very easy to knock you back down again. anything that would make you take a piloting check should automatically knock you down.

there is no logical reason why destroying both legs destroys a mech though. theyre not a critical system. its not like the mech has its fusion reactor in its legs. the critical parts of a mech are the head and the torso sections, destroying those should be the only way to destroy a mech.

Edited by Khobai, 24 November 2017 - 10:17 AM.


#51 Brain Cancer

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The 1 Percent
  • 3,851 posts

Posted 24 November 2017 - 10:18 AM

Quote

As far as the mentions of knock down, I've long been an advocate for bringing it back. The reports of issues with it were highly exaggerated, all vids I've seen of it had minimal if any teleporting, warping or the like.


Do we really, REALLY need to see "Goons <3 Paul" again?

Yeah? OK.



Knockdowns went bye-bye because of chainstunning. That fast robots often really did warp from apparent point of knockdown was also a truth, symptomatic of the poor HSR of the day.

#52 Dimento Graven

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Guillotine
  • Guillotine
  • 6,208 posts

Posted 24 November 2017 - 10:22 AM

View PostBrain Cancer, on 24 November 2017 - 10:18 AM, said:

Do we really, REALLY need to see "Goons <3 Paul" again?

Yeah? OK.



Knockdowns went bye-bye because of chainstunning. That fast robots often really did warp from apparent point of knockdown was also a truth, symptomatic of the poor HSR of the day.
We don't see any warping here, and chain knockdowns, yeah, possible, not exactly probable until the end of the match however.

Consider: Where was the rest of Paul's team? Mostly dead, probably? Did they not notice all these 'mechs focusing ONE 'mech? Could they not have taken advantage of some very open backsides and killed these guys off?

It's a TEAM game, if one guy goes off on his own and gets separated, this stuff WILL happen, sure. But without knockdown, all we'd see is Goons stripping Paul apart piece by piece, before finally killing him (unless of course, they strip all his weapons and his 'mech is still alive, THEN, HAHAHAHA, leave his *** and wait for the timer to expire).

Moral of the story: Stay with the team, this won't happen often.

#53 Brain Cancer

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The 1 Percent
  • 3,851 posts

Posted 24 November 2017 - 10:36 AM

Quote

We don't see any warping here, and chain knockdowns, yeah, possible, not exactly probable until the end of the match however.

Consider: Where was the rest of Paul's team? Mostly dead, probably? Did they not notice all these 'mechs focusing ONE 'mech? Could they not have taken advantage of some very open backsides and killed these guys off?


The kill counter up top should make things obvious. As for chain knockdowns not being probable?





Beep beep, classic chainstunner coming through. People used to deliberately body-check opponents, especially lights so they could burn them down as they got up.

#54 Dimento Graven

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Guillotine
  • Guillotine
  • 6,208 posts

Posted 24 November 2017 - 10:50 AM

View PostBrain Cancer, on 24 November 2017 - 10:36 AM, said:

The kill counter up top should make things obvious. As for chain knockdowns not being probable?





Beep beep, classic chainstunner coming through.
Not probable in that it typically requires a few players to ensure the chain stun, and again, SO WHAT?

Yeah, it's possible, but it requires at least ONE 'mech (if not two) be focusing on the 'mech that's being stunned, and that's two 'mechs that aren't shooting at everyone else. If I'd been on the enemy team, I'd be looking for people doing this just so I can get an easy kill shot to the back.

If the target ran off and got isolated, he was most probably dead anyway.

There's plenty of other ******** in this game that can be considered "un fun", yet it remains...

Quote

People used to deliberately body-check opponents, especially lights so they could burn them down as they got up.
Valid tactic in my opinion, and not with out some risk...

WITHOUT knock downs you now have the EXTREMELY unreasonable situation where a smaller light/medium 'mech can jam itself into the backside of larger 'mech taking ZERO damage, and being virtually impossible to target due to torso twisting and bending limitations.

If a smaller 'mech runs into a larger 'mech at full speed, there should be at least a chance the smaller 'mech bounces off and falls down, AND DEFINITELY not be allowed to grind itself into another 'mech with little to no damage. THAT **** is NOT FUN.

#55 dario03

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Mercenary Rank 10
  • 3,634 posts

Posted 24 November 2017 - 11:20 AM

I think the legging system is fine except they should remove the base 40kph speed limit. No reason a 160kph and 80kph mech should move the same speed when legged. Just make it 50% or maybe a little lower.

View PostDimento Graven, on 24 November 2017 - 10:50 AM, said:

WITHOUT knock downs you now have the EXTREMELY unreasonable situation where a smaller light/medium 'mech can jam itself into the backside of larger 'mech taking ZERO damage, and being virtually impossible to target due to torso twisting and bending limitations.


Valid tactic in my opinion, and not with out some risk...
It's a TEAM game, if one guy gets blocked by a non-moving light then that light should be a nearly free kill for others.
Consider: Where was the rest of the assaults team? Mostly dead or nascaring away, probably? Did they not notice the low armor non-moving mech? Could they not have taken advantage of the easy shot and killed or legged the light?

#56 Dimento Graven

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Guillotine
  • Guillotine
  • 6,208 posts

Posted 24 November 2017 - 11:31 AM

View Postdario03, on 24 November 2017 - 11:20 AM, said:

...

Valid tactic in my opinion, and not with out some risk...
It's a TEAM game, if one guy gets blocked by a non-moving light then that light should be a nearly free kill for others.
Consider: Where was the rest of the assaults team? Mostly dead or nascaring away, probably? Did they not notice the low armor non-moving mech? Could they not have taken advantage of the easy shot and killed or legged the light?
Complaining about how legging works in this game, trying to wedge BT rules into it (even though BT penalties for being legged are FAR more harsh), then trying to explain away knock downs (even though BT rules had them) smacks of:

"Don't penalize my light 'mech at all: Let me have my cake and eat it too..."

It shouldn't be possible and it is completely unreasonable for a 20 ton 'mech to stop dead a larger 'mech, just because the light 'mech parks himself in the way of the larger 'mech.

It shouldn't be possible and it is completely unreasonable that a light 'mech can hump the leg of a much larger 'mech, that probably weighs as much as their entire 'mech, with extremely little damage.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 24 November 2017 - 11:31 AM.


#57 dario03

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Mercenary Rank 10
  • 3,634 posts

Posted 24 November 2017 - 11:51 AM

View PostDimento Graven, on 24 November 2017 - 11:31 AM, said:

Complaining about how legging works in this game, trying to wedge BT rules into it (even though BT penalties for being legged are FAR more harsh), then trying to explain away knock downs (even though BT rules had them) smacks of:

"Don't penalize my light 'mech at all: Let me have my cake and eat it too..."

It shouldn't be possible and it is completely unreasonable for a 20 ton 'mech to stop dead a larger 'mech, just because the light 'mech parks himself in the way of the larger 'mech.

It shouldn't be possible and it is completely unreasonable that a light 'mech can hump the leg of a much larger 'mech, that probably weighs as much as their entire 'mech, with extremely little damage.


Complaining about lights using their mobility against low mobility assaults (while ignoring the one lopsidedness of the legged speed limit), trying to wedge teamwork into an earlier point, and then trying to explain away teamwork as a counter to blocking smacks of:

"Don't penalize my assault mech at all: Let me have my cake and eat it too..."

It shouldn't be possible and it is completely unreasonable for a 80kph mech and a 160kph mech to go the same speed when legged, just because assault mech pilots didn't like getting outran by legged Commandos.

#58 TWIAFU

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Pest
  • The Pest
  • 4,011 posts
  • LocationBell's Brewery, MI

Posted 24 November 2017 - 12:08 PM

View PostKhobai, on 24 November 2017 - 09:16 AM, said:




its the same reason ISXL is good in tabletop but turned out so terrible in MWO. because you can aim to take out side torsos. thats a mistake that shouldnt be repeated.

Fine.

Then loose one leg, you fall to the ground, and take time to get back up, movement halved.

Loose both legs, your on the ground and can only fire one arm weapon set and can never get back up.

Just like TT. Just like how you want it.

#59 Khobai

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 23,969 posts

Posted 24 November 2017 - 12:09 PM

Quote

Just like TT. Just like how you want it.


thats not how I want it. I already explained how it should work in MWO.

Quote

Loose both legs, your on the ground and can only fire one arm weapon set and can never get back up.


no that can lead to stupid situations where two mechs are paralyzed on opposite sides of the map and the game cant end until time runs out. I mean in tabletop you can just choose to end the game anytime you want. But you dont have that open in MWO you have to wait for time to run out.

mechs missing both legs still need to have some minimal amount of movement to avoid that situation

15% movement would be fine, thats basically crawling speed

Quote

It shouldn't be possible and it is completely unreasonable that a light 'mech can hump the leg of a much larger 'mech, that probably weighs as much as their entire 'mech, with extremely little damage.


larger mechs can take weapons like streaks that counter lights though

streaks are a definitive counter against tiny mechs like the locust

you can even use the arm reticle to lockon to them when theyre humping you, so it doesnt matter if your torso pitch is garbage.

if you have problems killing lights, and dont take a weapon that counters lights, thats on you.

dont blame the game because you didnt design your mech properly to deal with things you have trouble with

Edited by Khobai, 24 November 2017 - 12:20 PM.


#60 YueFei

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,184 posts

Posted 24 November 2017 - 12:50 PM

Eh, I generally think the torso pitch and arm yaw ranges in this game are a bit silly and too restrictive.

Like in MW3 and MW4 you could aim fully to the left or the right with your corresponding arm (with lower-arm actuator), 90 degrees to the side, and shoot while keeping the CT fully shielded. I also don't remember the torso pitch limits being so restrictive, but I could be wrong about that.

It'd be nice if they increased torso pitch limits, at least, perhaps with a corresponding speed penalty if you exceed the "nominal" torso pitch range. E.g.: for your mech at <=20 degrees pitch up or down, you still run, accelerate/decelerate, and turn at full speed, but at >20 degrees pitch up or down, top speed cut to 50%, and accel/decel and turn rate also reduced by half. Or something like that.

I mean, mechs are supposed to be able to pitch forward near 90 degrees and execute a bow, so...





2 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 2 guests, 0 anonymous users