92 replies to this topic

[Snazzy Dragon]

Gee, maybe if you used cover and corners in scouting, you wouldn't get legged as often. But nooo, pug vs pug, out in the open, taking potshots at each other's legs and blowing themselves up with override is the norm

[lazorbeamz]

I ve just got legged. But i wasnt a BSW rather a HBK! duh the leg meta

[Spheroid]

Do onto others as they do onto you.

[Koniving]

Khobai, on 23 November 2017 - 01:45 PM, said:

then why do most light mechs die outright after losing a leg?

clearly its not plenty of speed.

Get hit while legged, stuck at 15 kph for 2 to 3 seconds before you can regain 40 kph.
Even a single machine gun can keep you stun-locked at 15 kph while they whittle away at you.
A flamer, with zero damage transfer, can do the same.

[Trissila]

Legging is the natural end result of giving Bushwackers, through MWO's across-the-board armor buffs and then quirks and skills on top of it, 90 freaking armor on the CT instead of the 26 it is supposed to have. As quirks/skills are percentage-based, the legs don't quite get buffed to the level of a 75-ton heavy mech as the torsos do, so they are the most logical target.

Stop calling for nerfs to every single possible efficient way to destroy 'mechs, and then nerfs to the workarounds people find to those.

[R Valentine]

"Legging sucks because I want my score at scouting."

Seriously? Screw scouting. The mode sucks and it always has. If it's that big of a deal, just don't bother with the dumb events PGI has to vomit out just to lure you into scouting. You'll be a lot happier.

[ANOM O MECH]

JC Daxion, on 23 November 2017 - 01:26 PM, said:

It was something i hated in MW3, while they did fix it a bit in MW4, which is kinda what it is now in MWO, i still hate how it works, Especially in scouting.

Yes i realize it is a viable strat with the way armor works, But it also keeps you from taking/using many mechs because of this issue. To me legging needs a bit of a change.. which would still make taking out a let a viable strat, But not the be-all/end-all it is now.


Basically, Remove one leg, the mech drops speed. (personally i think the slowed rate needs to be boosted a bit over what it is now) I don't know what % it is now, but up it slightly.

Destroy the second leg, your speed gets dropped again, This time it is even slower than the single legging it is now but your mech could still function verse the dying now.


You are still getting penalized and missing both legs would be an easy kill, but, not as simple as it would be now. Another thing about legs, they really need to fix the darn hit-reg of legs while they are using JJ's and flying through the air, because right now it is down right terrible.

This would just eliminate legging as a viable tactic. If the the mech doesn't die or lose it's ability to kill you, then there is no point in doing it.

It should also be thrown out on the hallowed forum grounds of this change being an indirect nerf to lights. So yeah bad idea and absolutely not.

[Mechrophilia]

I think once legged a 'mech should be forced to hop around on one leg because that would be...hilarious.

[Damnedtroll]

Legging both legs mean dealing a lot more damage than blowing a CT. Just put armor on them and don,t stop moving... if you do a build for scouting that run at 64 kph with half the armor on your leg, you are the problem...

[The6thMessenger]

Personally, i'd rather just put CLX/LFE amount of speed reduction; from 81 kph to 64 KPH + Turning penalty. That's still a hefty penalty but not overkill, and then if the mech loses a CXL/FLE side-torso on TOP of a leg, then that drops to 50 KPH.


Legging would still be effective at slowing down people. But while legging is easier due to people having less leg armor, getting a CXL/LFE side-torso would cut down firepower as well.

[Trissila]

The6thMessenger, on 23 November 2017 - 08:29 PM, said:

Personally, i'd rather just put CLX/LFE amount of speed reduction; from 81 kph to 64 KPH + Turning penalty. That's still a hefty penalty but not overkill, and then if the mech loses a CXL/FLE side-torso on TOP of a leg, then that drops to 50 KPH.


Legging would still be effective at slowing down people. But while legging is easier due to people having less leg armor, getting a CXL/LFE side-torso would cut down firepower as well.

For most 'mechs, legs have the ability to mount as much armor as the STs, before any quirks that might buff STs but not legs.

If blowing the leg slows them down as much as blowing the ST, but the ST also takes out weapons and potentially other gear (legs cannot mount weapons), what incentive do I have to ever target legs? Why would I ever bother, when STs are FAR more rewarding shots?

The reason people shave armor from legs right now is because, even with the current legging penalties, legs are not worth going after the majority of the time. You can almost always get away with skimping on leg armor because you have a pretty high confidence that people are not going to bother shooting your legs... and we're talking about nerfing the legged penalty? Really?

The only places where legging is A Thing are light 'mechs (because at full speed they cause hitreg issues, thus legging to slow them down), and Scouting (because Bushwackers have insane armor and favorable geometry relative to clan mediums and legging is the only viable option).

To say nothing of the fact that legs are a harder target. A 'mech must generally expose its STs to make shots, but almost every 'mech can make hill-cresting shots without exposing the legs. Many of them are capable of making corner-shots without leg exposure, as well. Attackings legs is higher-risk, because you have to be in a position to hit them in the first place.

Edited by Trissila, 23 November 2017 - 09:44 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Trissila, on 23 November 2017 - 09:37 PM, said:

For most 'mechs, legs have the ability to mount as much armor as the STs, before any quirks that might buff STs but not legs.

If blowing the leg slows them down as much as blowing the ST, but the ST also takes out weapons and potentially other gear (legs cannot mount weapons), what incentive do I have to ever target legs? Why would I ever bother, when STs are FAR more rewarding shots?

Opportunity costs, when it becomes relevant to their strategy. Like do people go after the legs of the light to pin them down? Or do they go for the side-torso of the assault to remove a chunk of their firepower?

Trissila, on 23 November 2017 - 09:37 PM, said:

The reason people shave armor from legs right now is because, even with the current legging penalties, legs are not worth going after the majority of the time. You can almost always get away with skimping on leg armor because you have a pretty high confidence that people are not going to bother shooting your legs... and we're talking about nerfing the legged penalty? Really?

The only places where legging is A Thing are light 'mechs (because at full speed they cause hitreg issues, thus legging to slow them down), and Scouting (because Bushwackers have insane armor and favorable geometry relative to clan mediums and legging is the only viable option).

Yes, we are talking about it, because people have some grievances that could be addressed. Because legging people effectively takes people off the fight at most cases.

On fast lights, or tanky mechs, it's generally a good idea to go for the legs, because that effectively pins them down and have them open to be shot at and killed easily. But then again, heavier mechs such as heavies and assaults, they are also effectively taken out of the fight, they are slowed so much that they are effectively target-practice, so what if they can shoot back? People can just focus fire on them and kill them faster than when they can get back into cover and peekaboo. If they got legged under cover, it's not like it's easy to get out to quickly peekaboo, and when you get out you will likely take more when trading.

Quite simply, if you're legged, you're ******.

I'm not concerned of whether it should be worth taking or not, but when it's relevant to go after.

This legging nerf is aimed to make people have a dichotomy, do you go for the legs for that easy opportunity to slow someone? Or do you go for the harder side-torso, to remove a chunk of firepower, AND/OR their speed.

Don't get me wrong, i get that it's legitimate strategy to cut people out of the fight, but then the grievance was it's not that fun. It's kill joy, etc. It's like when Mayweather beat Paquiao by technicality and pot-shots, when all he did is ran around, making it essentially a boring boxing match. Yes that's legitimate strategy, but that's no fun, that's not exciting.

Trissila, on 23 November 2017 - 09:37 PM, said:

To say nothing of the fact that legs are a harder target. A 'mech must generally expose its STs to make shots, but almost every 'mech can make hill-cresting shots without exposing the legs. Many of them are capable of making corner-shots without leg exposure, as well. Attackings legs is higher-risk, because you have to be in a position to hit them in the first place.

So what if you have to be in good position to get legs? Not like we couldn't flank or backstab, especially with medium or lights.

So what if you can hill hump or corner-shoot? It's not like those are the ONLY facets of the game.

So what if it's harder to shoot? It's not like people don't have good aim, or there's only mechs that move 150 KPH, that there's not streaks.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 23 November 2017 - 10:50 PM.

[YueFei]

Trissila, on 23 November 2017 - 09:37 PM, said:

To say nothing of the fact that legs are a harder target. A 'mech must generally expose its STs to make shots, but almost every 'mech can make hill-cresting shots without exposing the legs. Many of them are capable of making corner-shots without leg exposure, as well. Attackings legs is higher-risk, because you have to be in a position to hit them in the first place.

How do you make a corner shot without exposing at least 1 leg?

I'm thinking maybe the mechs with non-centered cockpits can do it in a straightforward way, but I only know of the Summoner and the Thunderbolt. I guess the Summoner could shoot with its right torso/right arm weapons while twisted 90 degrees to the left, and avoid exposing the leg, and the Thunderbolt could do it while peeking with the left side.

Is there some other technique that can be applied generally to most mechs? In particular, how would you do it in a Hunchback?

[Trissila]

The6thMessenger, on 23 November 2017 - 10:46 PM, said:

So what if you have to be in good position to get legs? Not like we couldn't flank or backstab, especially with medium or lights.

So what if you can hill hump or corner-shoot? It's not like those are the ONLY facets of the game.

So what if it's harder to shoot? It's not like people don't have good aim, or there's only mechs that move 150 KPH, that there's not streaks.

Because if it is harder to attack, and it rewards you less for attacking it, then attacking it is always the objectively wrong choice. That's how games work. You effectively turn legs into a noob-trap; they are presented as a targetable part of an enemy 'mech, but doing so is provably the worst move you can make in every situation except, perhaps, that in which they are the ONLY thing you can attack. And even then, you'd probably be better off saving your heat/ammo/cooldown for a more rewarding part of the 'mech to shoot at.

I don't even understand that part about "grievances" and how legging "effectively takes you out of the fight". People complain when they get cored out and die, as well; should we make CT loss no longer kill a 'mech?

I've won multiple matches while missing a leg. It's a very large debuff, but that's the tradeoff: the leg is harder to attack and does not reward you with any weapon/equipment destruction, so it has to have something to make it a viable option instead of just shooting the torso every time, in every circumstance.

[Khobai]

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This would just eliminate legging as a viable tactic. If the the mech doesn't die or lose it's ability to kill you, then there is no point in doing it.

um. thats the whole point. to eliminate legging as a viable tactic for killing mechs.

and people would still leg mechs. Its significantly easier to kill a legged light than a non-legged light.

but youd be legging mechs for the RIGHT REASON (preventing them from escaping or evading damage) not the WRONG REASON (as a way of killing mechs them because legs are often easier to hit and less armored than torsos)

Quote

I don't even understand that part about "grievances" and how legging "effectively takes you out of the fight". People complain when they get cored out and die, as well; should we make CT loss no longer kill a 'mech?

because thats how it works in battletech: if you lose your CT your mech gets destroyed. if you lose both legs your mech isnt destroyed.

this game is supposed to be like battletech. and one of the major ways its not like battetech is that your mech is destroyed when you lose both legs.

so yeah thats the grievance. it really is as simple as that: its not battletechesque.

Quote

Because if it is harder to attack, and it rewards you less for attacking it, then attacking it is always the objectively wrong choice

shooting legs always objectively being the right choice is worse. like scout mode now theres really no reason not to shoot legs. it completely diminishes the fact mechs even have torsos when all you have to do is shoot the legs.

Edited by Khobai, 23 November 2017 - 11:45 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Trissila, on 23 November 2017 - 11:22 PM, said:

Because if it is harder to attack and it rewards you less for attacking it, then attacking it is always the objectively wrong choice. That's how games work.

Not always, such as when it's a fast light you need to pin down, or when it's a mech with too much torso armor, that WHEN is an important part. And that's what i am trying to emphasize.

And no, it's not THAT harder to attack, don't be so dramatic. Likewise because it's not THAT harder to attack, it shouldn't be that harder to slow.

Don't you read target info? Don't you actively target exposed locations when you can?

Trissila, on 23 November 2017 - 11:22 PM, said:

You effectively turn legs into a noob-trap; they are presented as a targetable part of an enemy 'mech, but doing so is provably the worst move you can make in every situation except, perhaps, that in which they are the ONLY thing you can attack. And even then, you'd probably be better off saving your heat/ammo/cooldown for a more rewarding part of the 'mech to shoot at.

Then maybe you should properly weigh your options, and choose appropriately, right?

You know, saving your heat/ammo/cooldown for a more rewarding part of the mech is kind of okay. It's when it's relevant to go for the legs is important, such as if already accrued so much damage, or when it's a fast light mech, or when it's torso armor is too great.

Decisions, DECISIONS.

Trissila, on 23 November 2017 - 11:22 PM, said:

I don't even understand that part about "grievances" and how legging "effectively takes you out of the fight". People complain when they get cored out and die, as well; should we make CT loss no longer kill a 'mech?

"i don't understand how people can say that earth is a sphere, when it' looks flat to me" - Flat Earther.

If you think that the Flat Earther statement above is ridiculous, that's exactly how ridiculous your statement is.

And then there's the hyperbolic stupidity. No, we wouldn't compare CT to a Leg, they are not the same. That's you taking it to the stupid extreme.

Trissila, on 23 November 2017 - 11:22 PM, said:

I've won multiple matches while missing a leg.

So? I've won many matches in an Urbanmech, using UAC5. Does not mean that UAC5 is the best build for the Urbanmech, does not make the Urbanmech meta.

Trissila, on 23 November 2017 - 11:22 PM, said:

It's a very large debuff, but that's the tradeoff: the leg is harder to attack and does not reward you with any weapon/equipment destruction, so it has to have something to make it a viable option instead of just shooting the torso every time, in every circumstance.

Harder, yes. But not THAT hard.

Sure it does not have any weapon/equipment destruction, then again just one leg to ruin someone's day, but then a torso or arm does not necessarily neuter a mech as people CAN distribute weapons, ammo, and equipment over the mechs' other components, even just dead-side and shield properly.

Aside from people that actually good with aiming, the good position necessary for a decent pilot, there are also weapons that have a tendency to hit legs such as LRMs and ATMs, as well as mechs that have the tendency to damage their own legs or get shot in the process -- like Shadow Cat, especially when jumping.

I don't know about you, but I could leg someone just fine.

As for the "viable option", I prefer it to be a "viable option when relevant", not because you can effectively put people out of the fight with it.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 24 November 2017 - 12:24 AM.

[Trissila]

The6thMessenger, on 24 November 2017 - 12:19 AM, said:

Don't you read target info? Don't you actively target exposed locations when you can?

Yeah, I do.

And legs are never exposed.

Because nobody shoots them, not unless it's by accident.

Because legs aren't worth shooting right now, with the sole exception of light 'mechs (to nerf their speed so you can reliably hit them elsewhere) and scouting (because of the weight restrictions and the very specific matchup dynamics that mode imposes).

If legging is a problem that needs to be addressed, then why is it not the primary, go-to method for destroying all 'mechs in all modes? Why are the legs not the first thing that everyone goes to, by default?

[Wolfways]

Khobai, on 23 November 2017 - 01:45 PM, said:

its not good though. mechs dont get destroyed from losing both legs in battletech. so why should they get destroyed in MWO?

Ah ah, you know the forum rules. No using BT as an argument for having/not having something in MWO.

Quote

then why do most light mechs die outright after losing a leg?

clearly its not plenty of speed.

Because the little ******* deserve it!

Quote

it should make you fall down automatically. and be more susceptible to subsequent knockdowns. but you should still be able to stand back up and shoot and move at 15% speed.

How does something like a Mad Dog stand back up?

[The6thMessenger]

Trissila, on 24 November 2017 - 12:57 AM, said:

And legs are never exposed.

Not even when brawling, when lights are running around, when people are going cover to cover. Lol.

Trissila, on 24 November 2017 - 12:57 AM, said:

Because nobody shoots them, not unless it's by accident.

Really? You mean you fought with the entirety of the player base? And NOT ONCE, you ever saw people target legs. Not by yours truly, not by MechWarrior8055091? You also never fought on Scouting?

Trissila, on 24 November 2017 - 12:57 AM, said:

Because legs aren't worth shooting right now, with the sole exception of light 'mechs (to nerf their speed so you can reliably hit them elsewhere) and scouting (because of the weight restrictions and the very specific matchup dynamics that mode imposes).

It's funny how you made an exception, cause that contradicts your statement, never mind that we also go for the legs with Bushwacker, along with ShadowHawk, UrbanMechs, and others, as well on certain game modes like Scouting.

It also funny how you seem to haven't thought that when you also leg other heavies, especially those with short-ranged weapons, you effectively take them out of the fight because they cannot effectively participate in a fire-fight, or on large maps. Imagine legging a direwolf or a king crab in the open of polar highlands, or somewhere faraway in tourmaline village or frozen city?

Trissila, on 24 November 2017 - 12:57 AM, said:

If legging is a problem that needs to be addressed, then why is it not the primary, go-to method for destroying all 'mechs in all modes? Why are the legs not the first thing that everyone goes to, by default?

It's funny how you forgot scouting for a moment there, although to be fair, it's not that we constantly kill people in the leg -- but we constantly do it on Scouting. It's also funny how you could argue that just because it's infrequent therefore not a problem, never mind that it's not even what I'm arguing at all. You also forgot that with certain mechs, you ought to go for the legs such as the Bushwacker, Urbanmech, Shadow Hawk, etc.

Another issue is that you're thinking that it's some "problem that needs to be addressed", i just said that people have grievances that could be addressed as to why we are talking about it. And i just said that i prefer it done another way, because it's a horrible experience and the speed penalty is needlessly overkill, one that effectively puts people out of a fight.

So that last part about infrequence is really really irrelevant. But to humor you, okay i'll answer.

I also never saw it as an opportunity to murder my enemies, it's more of pinning them down so they are open, to force them to take your shots, they also cannot move around and dance as they brawl, lights are pinned down so we can reliably hit them, slow mechs are generally unable to bring their weapons to bear when needed, or never at all. So when you say "go-to methods for destroying mechs", i wouldn't say that, i don't use it to kill people, it's to maim them, that way I can savor the ammo-dump for later, or savor murdering that little locust that's annoying the team the entire time.

As for it's infrequence, it's probably the score and the fun of shooting people. Do you know how boring it is when people base-rush? Likewise, damage affects scores, which in turn affects money.

There's also trading, that people don't get to shoot the legs if people only expose their hardpoints. And at the end of the fight, the torso took so much damage, going for the leg is a moot point, unless your enemy is fast like a linebacker or something.

Personally, i like the Ammo-Dump of my RAC to people's faces, i figure it's taxing to people's computers. And then there's also the suppressive fire, when under fire people tend to go back to cover, armor roll, and side shield, which is time not used in firing back to you, and time you give to your team to reposition.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 24 November 2017 - 04:00 AM.

[Brain Cancer]

Nope. I'm just fine with the current system, because as it stands a leg gone should be a mobility kill, not a "slow you down a lot" bit of damage. Prior to MWO, legging was the most efficient way of downing a lot of robots in MechWarrior games (unless you had so much firepower you could OSK something regardless).

But we wanted the game to not rotate around legging. Thus the change.

Scouting focuses on legging because in many cases, a legging is "good enough" in a mode where if you can't keep up, the opponent wins. And being able to move also means spreading damage better. We don't need to alter how leg destruction works, unless they add quads.