96 replies to this topic

[Wolfways]

Tarl Cabot, on 26 November 2017 - 06:59 PM, said:

And or refit kits and that is for IS pilots and their mechs and/or their units mechs. But as a Clanner that option is not even available to you. If your CO says extended mission your techs switches the weapon modules (not pods) for said mission specs with pre-configured payload that is already configured in the omni-mechs computer. Garrison Clanners,etc did not own Clan battlemechs so said mechs could NOT be reconfigured.

Regardless of what the boardgame allowed, lore did not provide that type of opportunity to a Clanner unless you were a high ranking officer.

Well refit kits are pretty much in the game already by buying variants. The same as clan variants are made by changing omnipods.
But in MWO for some reason pgi decided to give battlemechs full customization, and omnimechs just get weapon swaps which you can do with battlemechs anyway by just using one with the weapon hardpoints you want.

[Wolfways]

Seranov, on 26 November 2017 - 07:08 PM, said:

Also, let's not mince words here: Clan Battlemech are not better than Clan Omnimechs, they just have more options.

No they aren't better, but you can improve them by customizing.
HBK-IIC only has 2tons of ammo, but if you want more you can remove the jump jets, or even reduce the engine size.
An omni that needs more ammo? Tough luck.

[Seranov]

Wolfways, on 26 November 2017 - 07:23 PM, said:

No they aren't better, but you can improve them by customizing.
HBK-IIC only has 2tons of ammo, but if you want more you can remove the jump jets, or even reduce the engine size.
An omni that needs more ammo? Tough luck.

An Omnimech that wants more ammo changes its loadout, in the exact same way that a Battlemech changes its loadout, it just has fewer options for doing so. If you think they are going to make super-convoluted and non-canon changes just so you can run your LRM20 x2 LPL x2 MDD-Prime with slightly more ammo, I think you're probably going to be very disappointed.

[Khobai]

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Also, let's not mince words here: Clan Battlemech are not better than Clan Omnimechs, they just have more options.

but omnimechs are supposed to have more options

thats the whole point of an omnimech, its more versatile than a battlemech

its backwards.

Edited by Khobai, 26 November 2017 - 09:38 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 26 November 2017 - 09:38 PM, said:

but omnimechs are supposed to have more options

Only in the context of an existing sense of time and economics.

Neither is a thing in MWO.

[Tarogato]

Khobai, on 26 November 2017 - 10:11 PM, said:

Like I said omnimechs should have omnihardpoints

Huh? What does that change? They already have omni-hardpoints. They just happen to be distributed via various omnipods in MWO's system.

[Khobai]

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Huh? What does that change? They already have omni-hardpoints. They just happen to be distributed via various omnipods in MWO's system.

they dont have omnihardpoints

an omnihardpoint would be a universal hardpoint that can take energy, ballistic, or missile weapons.

and what it does is allow more diversity without having to give up your set of 8 quirks



every non-purifier kitfox variant with side torso hardpoints would have them replaced with upto 2 omnihardpoints instead.

then the purifier would no longer be nearly as pay2win. and kitfoxes could use a more diverse range of weapons while still keeping their set of 8 quirks.

it helps get rid of pay2win on hero omnipods and it adds more diversity to omnimechs by letting them use a more diverse array of weapons and still keep their set of 8 quirks.



purifier's side torsos would still be really good but would no longer be the only way to get high energy hardpoints on a kitfox. you could do it through omnihardpoints on the kitfox-G or kitfox-S for example.

Edited by Khobai, 26 November 2017 - 11:22 PM.

[Wolfways]

Seranov, on 26 November 2017 - 09:35 PM, said:

An Omnimech that wants more ammo changes its loadout, in the exact same way that a Battlemech changes its loadout, it just has fewer options for doing so. If you think they are going to make super-convoluted and non-canon changes just so you can run your LRM20 x2 LPL x2 MDD-Prime with slightly more ammo, I think you're probably going to be very disappointed.

I already know that. I don't expect pgi to do anything with MWO anymore, especially with MW5 coming...eventually...maybe.
It's nice to discuss things on the forums though...well other forums anyway

[Jay Leon Hart]

FupDup, on 26 November 2017 - 05:53 PM, said:

Actually...yeah. It would be great for saving spacenucks to buy a bare chassis.

Yeah, my sarcasm changed to joy halfway through typing it

Wolfways, on 26 November 2017 - 06:14 PM, said:

Why not? It's practically what they do now because "you have to customize mechs to make them work" remember.
What's the difference if you can't use the stock weapons anyway?

Agreed, it actually sounded better the more I typed

[Jay Leon Hart]

Shadowomega1, on 26 November 2017 - 07:06 PM, said:

I said that due to you talking size.

As for the RACs I actually looked at them the other day and I see why their larger in size than the IS versions; their range is significantly larger, and would bet if put in mwo they would have a greater velocity as well.

I know, just thought I'd clarify. I don't think XXL engines would be very popular, but people don't seem to mind Stealth Armour with no heat dissipation, so who knows?

[Tarogato]

Khobai, on 26 November 2017 - 10:40 PM, said:

they dont have omnihardpoints

They basically do. If you express MWO's available hardpoints using "omnihardpoints", you get something that looks kinda like this:



That's just two mechs. I was going to do a couple more examples, but I ran into the problem that...

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and what it does is allow more diversity without having to give up your set of 8 quirks

You end up allowing new builds that weren't possible before, and are straight-up powercreep over what we have now. If you're careful about how many omnihardpoints you dole out so that you don't cause powercreep, then you wind up with very very few omnihardpoints, and the whole system ends up not being worth the effort.

For instance, in the hardpoints you mocked up, you generated a KFX-S that can have 5x cERML with a 10% heat gen quirk. That's a strong build already without the quirk! You also allowed 3x cSRM6a + 3x cERSL, with a 15% missile cooldown (as well as the 10% heat gen quirk.

You see, you already you created some go-to meta optimal meta builds, with just one example of a mech. Imagine what would happen with all the other omnimechs, especially the ones that are already good. In order to balance the strongest builds that abuse the omnihardpoint system, you'd have to reduce the set-of-8 quirks, which defeats the whole purpose of the endeavour in the first place.


No, I think the current system is fine. Just like for poorly-hardpointed battlemech, the set-of-8 quirks give poorly-hardpointed omnimechs the boost they need to not be trash, which is all they really need, since the only reasons you'd play pre-defined lore configurations is if you're a lorehead, or a new player that can't yet afford to swap omnipods.

Could some of the set-of-8 quirks be better? Yes, I think so. But I think the overall system is fine and does not need to be overhauled.

[Khobai]

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You end up allowing new builds that weren't possible before, and are straight-up powercreep over what we have now.

yeah thats true. thats why id limit omnihardpoints to side torsos only. and no more than 1 per side torso.

that way you can never have more than 2 omnihardpoints on an omnimech no matter what omnipods you use.

most of the omnimechs like the timberwolf have their big modular weapons pods on the side torsos so that makes sense I think.

ill try to come up with a few more examples

Edited by Khobai, 27 November 2017 - 11:47 AM.

[FupDup]

Omni hardpoints don't make much sense when pod-swapping is a thing. Like, that's literally the function it serves.

If PGI didn't have so many damn variants of every chassis, then having a single main Omni variant with a few Omni hardpoints (as opposed to having a gazillion variants of that Omnimech chassis) would make sense.

For the current system in MWO, I just really wish that I could swap the CT pod. It sucks that the Special/Invasion variants almost always get mediocre stock pods, and if you want to get a good 8/8 setup you usually have to use a different variant entirely (thus making your paid special variant useless).

Edited by FupDup, 27 November 2017 - 12:09 PM.

[Khobai]

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Omni hardpoints don't make much sense when pod-swapping is a thing

they do make sense because it adds more versatility without losing set of 8 bonuses.

it also makes hero omnipods less pay2win

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Like, that's literally the function it serves.

its not the same function. because changing omnipods makes you lose your set of 8 bonuses. omnihardpoints would allow you to use a wider range of weapons while still keeping your set of 8 bonuses.

its a straight up buff for omnimechs

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If PGI didn't have so many damn variants of every chassis, then having a single main Omni variant with a few Omni hardpoints (as opposed to having a gazillion variants of that Omnimech chassis) would make sense.

Reducing the number of different omnipods is another potential benefit of omnihardpoints

you could just have some omnimechs share the same identical omnipods.

Edited by Khobai, 27 November 2017 - 12:20 PM.

[Seranov]

Omnimechs, for the most part, do not need strict buffs across the board. There are numerous good setups for literally all the Omnimechs in the game at the moment, utilizing the various Omnipods to make effective loadouts. Set of 8 quirks are supposed to make stock/almost-stock builds more viable, NOT as a way to further improve the already viable Omnimech chassis.

Think of it this way: The whole point of Omnimechs is that you can swap Omnipods around to help the mech adapt to different tactics (long range sniper vs. second line fire support vs. brawler, etc.) and making it so that you'd be stupid to ever change out the Omnipods is both against the intent of Omnimechs and the actual usefulness of them.

You keep harping on the Kitfox hero, Khobai, but it's literally the only Omnimech where the Omnipods make that kind of difference. That single hero mech is not a reason to buff every Omnimech significantly, even if we assume you are actually trying to combat P2W, and not that you're just trying to get the Clans a buff they honestly don't need. And with the introduction of the KFX-G (which will be available for C-bills reasonably soon) the Kitfox will have ST options that aren't complete garbage with no MC/real money price tag attached. There is no need for PGI to make a wild, sweeping buff to the assorted Omnimechs in the game just because you want to use stock Omnipods.

[Shadowomega1]

Jay Leon Hart, on 27 November 2017 - 01:08 AM, said:

I know, just thought I'd clarify. I don't think XXL engines would be very popular, but people don't seem to mind Stealth Armour with no heat dissipation, so who knows?

You can at least turn off the Stealth Armor, XXLs would only work on very cold maps or require the pilot to shut down every few minutes, though I do know I would never use XXLs if they were introduced.

[Khobai]

ok so heres a few more examples of how omnihardpoints would work

basically only the WORST omnipods for each location would have omnihardpoints. that helps make the worst omnipods a little more appealing, gives stock omnimechs more flexibility without having to give up their set of 8 quirks, and in some cases it helps alleviate pay2win issues for hero omnimechs.

and you can even eliminate some variants. like the MDD-C can just be eliminated from the game. anyone who owns a MDD-C would just get a basically identical MDD-A instead.

Edited by Khobai, 27 November 2017 - 06:27 PM.