96 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Spheroid, on 26 November 2017 - 12:34 PM, said:

Two pages in and still no explanation given why one need run a stock Mad Dog Prime. I don't get it.

TL;DR: It's an artificial self-limitation, and kind of a double-standard since he doesn't mind breaking every part of the stock build EXCEPT the weapons. Like, if you're gonna be a stock purist, at least do it right!

[Shadowomega1]

Khobai, on 26 November 2017 - 12:55 AM, said:

dunno about that

but omnimechs should have omnihardpoints which can take any type of weapons

every omnimech should have 1-2 omnihardpoints. these would replace existing hardpoints not be additional harpdoints.

IS omnimechs, when they add them, should have omnihardpoints too


omnihardpoints would also help solve the pay2win problem for clan hero omnipods

for example, every variant of the kitfox could just have 1 omnihardpoint in each side torso and the omnihardpoints would replace the energy hardpoints on the purifier. that way the kitfox purifier wouldnt be pay2win

I can see them adding at best direct fire hardpoints, which would be only Laser and Ballistics. As for IS omni's I heard something might be done for the IS XL engine to make it less of a walken coffin, if that end up being true then Clan may end up getting some of equipment unlocked. As IS omnis tend to be in a bad spot Using Ferro instead of Endo is kind of stupid for this type of play while it makes sense for the table top.

[Wolfways]

Spheroid, on 26 November 2017 - 12:34 PM, said:

Two pages in and still no explanation given why one need run a stock Mad Dog Prime. I don't get it.

I've explained multiple times. I like mechs based on how they look and the weapons they use. This means I can only play IS mechs the way I prefer because stock-weapon Omnimechs don't work in MWO.

Look at my sig. Mad Dog-Prime is my favourite BT mech by far. If I remove the weapons it is no longer an MDD-Prime.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Wolfways, on 26 November 2017 - 12:33 PM, said:

But no-one does. Pgi have made sure that stock mechs do not work in MWO due to limited ammo and heat so you are forced to customize to have a viable mech.
IS have the advantage of customizing all their mechs while having the choice of keeping the weapons.
The only thing omni's can "customize" is the omnipods, and if you want to keep the original weapons having changeable omnipods means nothing. You are forced to play a stock mech or not use it at all.

People keep saying that if I play with stock weapons it's my choice and I should accept the consequences, I get it.
My point is that it means nothing when playing battlemechs but is extremely punishing when playing omnimechs.

Correct, so stop limiting yourself, or realise your complaint is not valid because it is not a problem with the system, it is a problem with your choices.

Just like the last thread, if you choose to ignore customisation options, that is not a lack of customisation options. Your argument is not more of less valid than the one I presented. A BattleMech that I choose to keep the stock weapons, engine, heat sinks, armour & structure on is no more or less customisable than an OmniMech I choose to keep the stock weapons on.

If you take your "stock weapons" idea to the extreme I did above with a BattleMech, the argument is still a poor one.

[Wolfways]

FupDup, on 26 November 2017 - 12:39 PM, said:

TL;DR: It's an artificial self-limitation, and kind of a double-standard since he doesn't mind breaking every part of the stock build EXCEPT the weapons. Like, if you're gonna be a stock purist, at least do it right!

Or pgi could have designed the game based on BT, but they instead decided to base it on heavily customized IS mechs, so when omni's came out the only customizing option is remove/downsize weapons.
Look at all the Nova's (and most other omni's) running around with ERsmall lasers.

I have to admit though, it's kinda funny in FW watching most clanners die to overheating.
Suicide is the most common way for a clanner to die apparently, including myself.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Wolfways, on 26 November 2017 - 12:49 PM, said:

I've explained multiple times. I like mechs based on how they look and the weapons they use. This means I can only play IS mechs the way I prefer because stock-weapon Omnimechs don't work in MWO.

Or, as mentioned in the other thread and you seem to keep ignoring, play Clan BattleMechs. You keep confusing OmniMechs with Clan 'mechs. They are not the same thing.

Wolfways, on 26 November 2017 - 12:55 PM, said:

Or pgi could have designed the game based on BT

So stock armour only for OmniMechs and you can't choose your weapons, only swap pre-defined, pre-built OmniPods with set loadouts? Sounds awful.

[Shadowomega1]

Jay Leon Hart, on 26 November 2017 - 12:21 PM, said:

1 slot? Hell no! They get the RAC treatment! 3 slots per torso. You know, just to really make things interesting


Not if you decide to keep the stock weapons, engine, structure, heat sinks & armour!


But I can't if I want to keep the stock structure & heat sinks!

That Engine is called the XXL it is the size of an IS XL but at 75% weight savings does generate heat on its own per turn even while standing still and even more heat movemening. Also goes down with torso destruction. Effectively no sane pilot would even want to use this.

Edited by Shadowomega1, 26 November 2017 - 12:59 PM.

[FupDup]

Wolfways, on 26 November 2017 - 12:55 PM, said:

Or pgi could have designed the game based on BT, but they instead decided to base it on heavily customized IS mechs, so when omni's came out the only customizing option is remove/downsize weapons.
Look at all the Nova's (and most other omni's) running around with ERsmall lasers.

I have to admit though, it's kinda funny in FW watching most clanners die to overheating.
Suicide is the most common way for a clanner to die apparently, including myself.

Your Vulture Prime violated several "rules of thumb" when it came to Battletech's meta.

For one, your primary weapons should have at least 10-12 turns of ammo, particularly if they reach out to long range like LRMs. The Vulture Prime only has 6 turns worth of ammo. Objectively bad design choice, not PGI or MWO's fault. Tabletop's fault.

The next unspoken rule that it violates is having two weapons competing for the same range bracket (LRMs vs. CLPL) but you can't fire both at the same time without causing a lot of heat. In TT, you should be able to fire one particular range bracket at least one time with no heat penalty. If not, you failed mech design school.

Lastly I could also nitpick the low stock armor (81% coverage is not acceptable), lack of Endo, FF in place of Endo, the fact that a 60-tonner going at 5/8 MP is mathematically inferior to a 70 or 75-tonner at the same speed, using large LRM launchers when you can spam the LRM5 for saved tonnage (yes that's a thing in TT), etc...

Don't argue that your Mad Doge would be this amazing thing in Battletech, because it's not. Maybe if you compare it relative to crappy IS mechs it fought in the invasion or other dumb stock designs of the era, but once you bring in custom designs (or good stock designs) then it gets blown out of the water. Hard.


If I was going to build a properly min-maxed Vulture Prime for TT, here is what I would do:
>Drop the LPL's entirely
>Add 2 more tons of LRM ammo
>Add 4 additional MPL's (2 in the CT for longevity)
>Upgrade to Artemis launchers

And that's without even adding Endo. With Endo there would be even more changes...

Edited by FupDup, 26 November 2017 - 01:08 PM.

[Wolfways]

Jay Leon Hart, on 26 November 2017 - 12:55 PM, said:

Correct, so stop limiting yourself, or realise your complaint is not valid because it is not a problem with the system, it is a problem with your choices.

Just like the last thread, if you choose to ignore customisation options, that is not a lack of customisation options. Your argument is not more of less valid than the one I presented. A BattleMech that I choose to keep the stock weapons, engine, heat sinks, armour & structure on is no more or less customisable than an OmniMech I choose to keep the stock weapons on.

If you take your "stock weapons" idea to the extreme I did above with a BattleMech, the argument is still a poor one.

lol no, it's definitely a problem with the system and pgi should fix it.
Forcing clan players to downgrade their omni's while not asking the same from IS players is not being treated equally.

[Tarogato]

Wolfways, on 26 November 2017 - 01:01 PM, said:

lol no, it's definitely a problem with the system and pgi should fix it.
Forcing clan players to downgrade their omni's while not asking the same from IS players is not being treated equally.

Huh? You're not "forced" to anything, especially downgrade. You have the option to upgrade your omnis, in fact it's rather difficult to downgrade. I provided two builds earlier that are superior but similar to the stock loadout. If you want more effective mechs, then don't play stock loadouts - it's as simple as that. Being a lore purist and expecting high performance are two completely incompatible principles. One of them is going to have to budge.

[Wolfways]

Jay Leon Hart, on 26 November 2017 - 12:58 PM, said:

Or, as mentioned in the other thread and you seem to keep ignoring, play Clan BattleMechs. You keep confusing OmniMechs with Clan 'mechs. They are not the same thing.

I'm not ignoring anything. Playing clan battlemechs doesn't help bad clan omni's like the Mad Dog Prime or Nova prime for example.

Quote

So stock armour only for OmniMechs and you can't choose your weapons, only swap pre-defined, pre-built OmniPods with set loadouts? Sounds awful.

So does stock IS mechs with standard structure and SHS which is why pgi designed the game around customized IS mechs.

[FupDup]

Wolfways, on 26 November 2017 - 01:11 PM, said:

I'm not ignoring anything. Playing clan battlemechs doesn't help bad clan omni's like the Mad Dog Prime or Nova prime for example.

Designs that were bad by BT's own standards (PGI isn't at fault here) can't be helped in MWO unless you programmed quirks that immediately deactivated if you altered any part of the stock loadout.

[Wolfways]

FupDup, on 26 November 2017 - 01:01 PM, said:

Your Vulture Prime violated several "rules of thumb" when it came to Battletech's meta.

For one, your primary weapons should have at least 10-12 turns of ammo, particularly if they reach out to long range like LRMs. The Vulture Prime only has 6 turns worth of ammo. Objectively bad design choice, not PGI or MWO's fault. Tabletop's fault.

The next unspoken rule that it violates is having two weapons competing for the same range bracket (LRMs vs. CLPL) but you can't fire both at the same time without causing a lot of heat. In TT, you should be able to fire one particular range bracket at least one time with no heat penalty. If not, you failed mech design school.

Lastly I could also nitpick the low stock armor (81% coverage is not acceptable), lack of Endo, FF in place of Endo, the fact that a 60-tonner going at 5/8 MP is mathematically inferior to a 70 or 75-tonner at the same speed, using large LRM launchers when you can spam the LRM5 for saved tonnage (yes that's a thing in TT), etc...

Don't argue that your Mad Doge would be this amazing thing in Battletech, because it's not. Maybe if you compare it relative to crappy IS mechs it fought in the invasion or other dumb stock designs of the era, but once you bring in custom designs (or good stock designs) then it gets blown out of the water. Hard.

I never said it would be amazing. It would be as good as my IS battlemechs though.
While it has problems in TT, in MWO those problems are magnified to the extreme. LRM's and LPL's have vastly shortened ranges (making armour more important due to closer range fighting) and pgi never seemed to realize that increasing the time of a match would mean ammo-based weapons would need more ammo.
You could say that many battlemechs have similar problems, but they get the option of customizing to either partially or fully negate those problems.
The Jagermech JM6-S only comes with 3 tones of ammo, yet due to customization I filled mine with 8 or 9 tons (can't remember which offhand) of ammo and it's one of my best IS mechs. Which omni can use an extra 7 tons of free weight without removing the weapons? None.

Quote

If I was going to build a properly min-maxed Vulture Prime for TT, here is what I would do:
>Drop the LPL's entirely
>Add 2 more tons of LRM ammo
>Add 4 additional MPL's (2 in the CT for longevity)
>Upgrade to Artemis launchers

And that's without even adding Endo. With Endo there would be even more changes...

I tried playing with different weapons but then it's not the mech I like, which made me quit MWO for a while.

Tarogato, on 26 November 2017 - 01:08 PM, said:

Huh? You're not "forced" to anything, especially downgrade. You have the option to upgrade your omnis, in fact it's rather difficult to downgrade. I provided two builds earlier that are superior but similar to the stock loadout. If you want more effective mechs, then don't play stock loadouts - it's as simple as that. Being a lore purist and expecting high performance are two completely incompatible principles. One of them is going to have to budge.

Yet works for battlemechs.
Plus it's amazing how many omni's i see in game that have been "upgraded" to ERsl's...

[Wolfways]

FupDup, on 26 November 2017 - 01:13 PM, said:

Designs that were bad by BT's own standards (PGI isn't at fault here) can't be helped in MWO unless you programmed quirks that immediately deactivated if you altered any part of the stock loadout.

Yeah but the biggest difference between BT and MWO is that all fighting is at short-medium range (other than the occasional sniper) and while using hot weapons you need to cool off every couple of shots and you pretty much don't get that option because every brawler build (i.e. nearly every mech in MWO) will be in your face and destroy you.

[Y E O N N E]

Wolfways, on 26 November 2017 - 01:40 PM, said:

Yeah but the biggest difference between BT and MWO is that all fighting is at short-medium medium-to-long range (other than the occasional sniper rambo brawler) and while using hot weapons you need to cool off every couple of shots and you pretty much don't get that option because every brawler build (i.e. nearly every mech in MWO) will be in your face and destroy you.

FTFY

[Wolfways]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 November 2017 - 01:41 PM, said:

FTFY

There was nothing to fix. In nearly all my QP and FW (solo) matches the majority of mechs are brawlers or they are forced to fight at close range no matter what weapons they have. Post-it note sized maps with masses of cover don't really leave any other options.

[Spheroid]

So use a Mad Dog-H and stop whinning. Same exterior appearance, more ammo and more cooling.

There are no RAT tables, logistics, etc.

Why is the love of one variant of one mech of greater importance than the territorial gains of your Clan as a whole? Seems like one aspect of lore love conflicts with the second.

Also NBT is a thing. They run stock.

[Wolfways]

Spheroid, on 26 November 2017 - 01:48 PM, said:

So use a Mad Dog-H and stop whinning. Same exterior appearance, more ammo and more cooling.

There are no RAT tables, logistics, etc.

Why is the love of one variant of one mech of greater importance than the territorial gains of your Clan as a whole? Seems like one aspect of lore love conflicts with the second.

Also NBT is a thing. They run stock.

Okay, tell players there's no more customization and to not use their favourite mech.
I'll care about territory when/if pgi ever make a game out of FW. Until then it's just QP with four mechs and worse maps.

[Y E O N N E]

Wolfways, on 26 November 2017 - 01:47 PM, said:

There was nothing to fix. In nearly all my QP and FW (solo) matches the majority of mechs are brawlers or they are forced to fight at close range no matter what weapons they have. Post-it note sized maps with masses of cover don't really leave any other options.

And in most of my games, it's exactly the opposite because well-aimed big alphas and/or high DPS ranged builds make it difficult to get close or, once in close, to survive.

[Spheroid]

@Wolf: No that's not how works. Customization would be curtailed but your choice of your Mad Dog would not.

It would be garbage Mad Dog prime vs. garbage stock Summoner Prime. That seems right up your alley.