32 replies to this topic

[JinSR]

The age old question.

So this happened earlier today and prompted this post.

I tried introducing this game to a friend who wanted to try it out, he made an account and was excited to find his first match. I made a group with him and hit launch.

20minute queue and we were still searching. Never found a game and he gave up and played another game.

Then I go and hit quickplay by myself and instant match.

I dont know and I dont really understand why group vs solo has such a huge difference. It seems that we are 'punished' for wanting to group up and playing with friends, or heaven's forbid group up and play as a team.

Personally I rather faster queues and faster games compared to the current matchmaking system that tries to 'balance' our matches. Especially in group queue. (And yes I put quotes on balance because the tier rating system is an utter joke to begin with.)

It does not really bother me when I get grouped up with people that are far below my tier but I know alot of people scream bloody murder if they somehow get a tier5 new player in their quickplays.

What would you guys rather? Fast? or "Balanced"

[Bombast]

I'm afraid your group queue problem has little to do with tier. You've just chosen a poor time of day (Low population) to try and get into a game that's basically trying to cram randomly sized groups together to make two 12 man teams. As opposed to Solo QP, which just needs 24 people, any people, and then sort them by weight.

Edited by Bombast, 06 December 2017 - 09:02 AM.

[Humpday]

You should have just sync dropped in solo queue...I mean 20 minutes I would have gotten bored after 2.

[JinSR]

Bombast, on 06 December 2017 - 09:01 AM, said:

I'm afraid your group queue problem has little to do with tier. You've just chosen a poor time of day (Low population) to try and get into a game that's basically trying to cram randomly sized groups together to make two 12 man teams. As opposed to Solo QP, which just needs 24 people, any people, and then sort them by weight.

U missed the part where I said, I instantly got a game after he left.

[Bombast]

JinSR, on 06 December 2017 - 09:10 AM, said:

U missed the part where I said, I instantly got a game after he left.

Yes. Because solo queue requires no puzzle work - It just needs 24 people of equal teir, or after X amount of time, 24 people.

Group queue requires two teams of 12 players, built from groups of people of 2-10,12. There's really no way to speed that up, unless you want the matchmaker to starts breaking up teams.

Edited by Bombast, 06 December 2017 - 09:17 AM.

[JinSR]

Bombast, on 06 December 2017 - 09:17 AM, said:

Yes. Because solo queue requires no puzzle work - It just needs 24 people of equal teir, or after X amount of time, 24 people.

Group queue requires two teams of 12 players, built from groups of people of 2-10,12. There's really no way to speed that up, unless you want the matchmaker to starts breaking up teams.

You really have trouble reading and comprehending what I posted for the second time. Im saying matchmaking is a problem, group queue is vastly too difficult to find games compared to single, and that needs to be changed.

And secondly, Im not sure you understand coding and programming when you say stuff like "Theres no way to speed it up." (There is, other games do it and do it easily), and you think having code that takes 20 minutes to put groups into 24 players is hard is the norm.....

[Xavori]

JinSR, on 06 December 2017 - 10:34 AM, said:

You really have trouble reading and comprehending what I posted for the second time. Im saying matchmaking is a problem, group queue is vastly too difficult to find games compared to single, and that needs to be changed.

And secondly, Im not sure you understand coding and programming when you say stuff like "Theres no way to speed it up." (There is, other games do it and do it easily), and you think having code that takes 20 minutes to put groups into 24 players is hard is the norm.....

No. You are the one having trouble understanding.

Taking 24 individuals and dividing them up in two groups of 12 is easy.

Take a group of 2, 6, 7, 5, 12, 10, 3, 9, etc and getting them together into two 12 man teams is trickier unless you have a ton of people in all sizes of groups, which MWO does not.

For example, taking you and your friend's group of 2. Well, that requires finding a combination of groups that add up to 10 players to stick you into. What if none of the other group sizes work out to 10? Well, you wait 20 minutes and give up apparently...

[Bombast]

JinSR, on 06 December 2017 - 10:34 AM, said:

You really have trouble reading and comprehending what I posted for the second time. Im saying matchmaking is a problem, group queue is vastly too difficult to find games compared to single, and that needs to be changed.

And secondly, Im not sure you understand coding and programming when you say stuff like "Theres no way to speed it up." (There is, other games do it and do it easily), and you think having code that takes 20 minutes to put groups into 24 players is hard is the norm.....

Ok, I'm trying to to be condescending, but you're making it hard.

Solo queue's matchmaker doesn't work the same way as groups. Full stop. You cannot compare the wait times between them. Solo queue groups people by tier, and tries to find 24 people for a match. As time goes on, it will loosen its restrictions until a match is made.

Group queue does not work this way. It looks through the groups that are waiting for a match and tries to cobble a team together out of a bunch of randomly sized jigsaw pieces. Sometimes that means you get passed up once or twice, sometimes it means you get passed up a lot.

For example, you're in your two man group. A 12 man, a 8 man, and a 4 man group are also in the match maker queue. The MM shunts you to the side and made a match for those other groups, a 12 man on one side, the 8+4 on the other. Then a 8 man, a 4 man, a 7 man, and a 5 man group join up. Again, the MM shunts you off and makes a match with the 8+4 vs. the 7+5.

There's no amount of programming that will 'fix' this. It's just how math works. Normally, this isn't a big issue, as there are enough groups going in and out for everyone to play. But if you're on during a low population time, you are probably going to get screwed.

[Jman5]

What regions do you have selected?

One thing nobody has mentioned is the fact that Group Queue always has a much smaller population than Solo queue. I forget the number, but PGI has pointed this out in the past and its significantly lower. So you're going have trouble finding a match if you're playing with restricted regions and at an odd time (like when most Europeans and Americans are either asleep or away).

It's not a coincidence that 99% of threads like these that pop up seem to be around 5-10am EST.

Edited by Jman5, 06 December 2017 - 11:08 AM.

[sycocys]

Like they said, the problem was grouping up as 2 people far more than the group MM.

LFG it and get at least 6.

[Asym]

Bombast, on 06 December 2017 - 10:48 AM, said:

Ok, I'm trying to to be condescending, but you're making it hard.

Solo queue's matchmaker doesn't work the same way as groups. Full stop. You cannot compare the wait times between them. Solo queue groups people by tier, and tries to find 24 people for a match. As time goes on, it will loosen its restrictions until a match is made.

Group queue does not work this way. It looks through the groups that are waiting for a match and tries to cobble a team together out of a bunch of randomly sized jigsaw pieces. Sometimes that means you get passed up once or twice, sometimes it means you get passed up a lot.

For example, you're in your two man group. A 12 man, a 8 man, and a 4 man group are also in the match maker queue. The MM shunts you to the side and made a match for those other groups, a 12 man on one side, the 8+4 on the other. Then a 8 man, a 4 man, a 7 man, and a 5 man group join up. Again, the MM shunts you off and makes a match with the 8+4 vs. the 7+5.

There's no amount of programming that will 'fix' this. It's just how math works. Normally, this isn't a big issue, as there are enough groups going in and out for everyone to play. But if you're on during a low population time, you are probably going to get screwed.

OK, I've got to ask a question? Have you seen PGI's code? Or, has PGI posted the details of the selection mechanics? I've been looking for the later? Does it exist out there???

If not, all we are doing is guessing based on what we see.... I really like to see the algorithm that drives the process.... Any ideas from way back if they ever released any hard data?

[RickySpanish]

JinSR, on 06 December 2017 - 10:34 AM, said:

You really have trouble reading and comprehending what I posted for the second time. Im saying matchmaking is a problem, group queue is vastly too difficult to find games compared to single, and that needs to be changed.

And secondly, Im not sure you understand coding and programming when you say stuff like "Theres no way to speed it up." (There is, other games do it and do it easily), and you think having code that takes 20 minutes to put groups into 24 players is hard is the norm.....

Sooo... Are you going to offer us some insight into how one might go about coding and programming it better? Heck, even high level concepts for a quick match making algorithm would suffice. Or, perhaps you might shed some light on why you think the MWO MM is inefficient? Have you perhaps considered the possibility that there were no compatible group combinations whilst you and your friend were waiting to drop?

[Tarl Cabot]

And if this was his first time I would NOT have grouped up and dropped into the group queue. What I would have done, we would have used the private lobbies, which no longer require Premium time. If he had not even progressed through the Academy, taking him into the group queue would likely have been horrific even if you both did get a drop.

Sorry, what the frak Clanner were you thinking?



Atm PGI and most of the population do not want any sort of group, even if it was just a duo, in the Solo queue, nor has PGI even considered even adding code to allow Solo to opt in for both Solo and Group due to the trauma of the early years, where there was also no in-game VOIP...

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 06 December 2017 - 03:35 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

What would you guys rather? Fast? or "Balanced"

fast queues are pointless if you have no chance of winning

both teams should have a reasonable chance of winning

that is the only way the game is enjoyable for everyone

stomps are no good. theyre not challenging for the stompers. and its not fun being stomped.

Edited by Khobai, 06 December 2017 - 03:36 PM.

[Vxheous]

Asym, on 06 December 2017 - 03:03 PM, said:

OK, I've got to ask a question? Have you seen PGI's code? Or, has PGI posted the details of the selection mechanics? I've been looking for the later? Does it exist out there???

If not, all we are doing is guessing based on what we see.... I really like to see the algorithm that drives the process.... Any ideas from way back if they ever released any hard data?

I think at one point PGI described how group queue matching works, but good luck trying to find it. Anecdotally, we see that it is just a jigsaw puzzle of grouping, pretty much ignoring tiers. Pretty much everyone I group with on my friends list is max tier 1 apart from one or two new players in tier 3/4, and we run into vastly different tier groups, including some people that were playing for the first time as a group of tier 4/5

Edited by Vxheous, 06 December 2017 - 03:52 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

I think at one point PGI described how group queue matching works, but good luck trying to find it.

the way it works is it sticks a 10-12 man on one side and a bunch of 2-4 man groups on the other side.

and a stomp occurs.

so basically it doesnt work at all.

[Vxheous]

Khobai, on 06 December 2017 - 03:53 PM, said:

the way it works is it sticks a 10-12 man on one side and a bunch of 2-4 man groups on the other side.

and a stomp occurs.

so basically it doesnt work at all.

A bunch of 2-4 man groups on one side typically means 6-8 assaults....vs a 10 man with....600 tons to work with. Most groups don't usually queue past 6 people due to huge tonnage restrictions. There's a reason why 12 man MS groups in group queue resort to crab rushes. Try again?

Edited by Vxheous, 06 December 2017 - 03:56 PM.

[Bombast]

Vxheous, on 06 December 2017 - 03:54 PM, said:

A bunch of 2-4 man groups on one side typically means 6-8 assaults....vs a 10 man with....600 tons to work with. Try again?

Generally speaking, teamwork is OP. It's not an absolute, but I'd put my money on an undertonned 12 man over a 3-6 separate grouped team almost every time.

Asym, on 06 December 2017 - 03:03 PM, said:

OK, I've got to ask a question? Have you seen PGI's code? Or, has PGI posted the details of the selection mechanics? I've been looking for the later? Does it exist out there???

If not, all we are doing is guessing based on what we see.... I really like to see the algorithm that drives the process.... Any ideas from way back if they ever released any hard data?

I mean, that's how it works. The population is so low that you can watch it happen most of the time.

There's probably some timing code that'll hold matches up in the hopes that more people will join, so it can randomize a bit better and make it so its not the same 24 people slamming into each other over and over, but ultimately its not magic. The groups queuing up are immutable, there's not much the match maker can do but jam them all together. They've said in the past that the MM would try to match weight and then give up after a certain amount of time, but judging by how fast 12 man groups get pushed out against sub 5 man groups, I'm fairly confident that's no longer true, or so meaningless as to not matter.

Edited by Bombast, 06 December 2017 - 04:05 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Too few people play in group queue. Often there's just no matches to be had.

[Xetelian]

If match making in group queue doesn't take anything into account (mechs and tiers) what else could it possibly be doing that makes sense to fix?

Also, as someone pointed out, what regions do you have selected? If you're an Aussie and you're playing at 3am your time and can only play on Oceanic you're not going to find a match.

I've seen some ignorance in my day but this guy really takes the cake.

Edited by Xetelian, 06 December 2017 - 04:19 PM.