119 replies to this topic

[Asym]

Appogee, on 08 December 2017 - 11:55 PM, said:

I've been getting low tier players in my matches since the beginning of last year.

I am not sure why the myth persists about not being dropped with people more than 2 tiers away. It's just not true. It hasn't been true for almost two years now.

The key issue with matchmaking is that low skill players aren't evenly distributed on the two teams. That's partly because PGI uses tiers to determine skill, but every potato increases in tier over time due to the upwards bias in the system. The other key reason is that there's no Elo-like distribution of relative skill across the two teams, or even anything that distributes players from the same unit across the teams.

Garbage into a poorly-designed system, garbage out in terms of team composition and matches.

In my generation of computer geeks it was WYSIWYG.....

Now I know why tier level isn't listed anywhere for a drop....
Everyone would have an umitigated heart attack, at both T1 and T5 levels, when players:
hide,
fight from behind,
not support and in a lot of drops lately,
refuse to actually engage the enemy ! I guess, they get damage magically at the end of a match somehow....... ?

Had another player whose name I recognize since I've been playing, be the last mech and refused to win the match simply by going into the circle and face an opponent with 1 small pulse laser and red and orange armor everywhere !!! People pleading, screaming on VOIP..... Refused to win because he didn't want to chance being destroyed....?!? Boy, I've seen a lot of silliness but that took the cake.

What have we become? Maybe, Hamlet had it right in Act 2, Sceen 2.......... "what a piece of work is man......."

[PFC Carsten]

UnofficialOperator, on 08 December 2017 - 04:39 PM, said:

Even during Primetime US, how are these people getting matched into T1 matches?



This guy has a lot of matches so its not a fluke. He is literally a lifetime 30 percenter of the population. How is he not in T4 or T5 matches?

He's the definition of my previous thread https://mwomercs.com...0th-percentile/

PS: obscured identity

Those stats seem to be quite meaningless and are easily rigged, sort of. No reason to call out people on them.

[Unnatural Growth]

Appogee, on 08 December 2017 - 11:55 PM, said:

I've been getting low tier players in my matches since the beginning of last year.

I am not sure why the myth persists about not being dropped with people more than 2 tiers away. It's just not true. It hasn't been true for almost two years now.

The key issue with matchmaking is that low skill players aren't evenly distributed on the two teams. That's partly because PGI uses tiers to determine skill, but every potato increases in tier over time due to the upwards bias in the system. The other key reason is that there's no Elo-like distribution of relative skill across the two teams, or even anything that distributes players from the same unit across the teams.

Garbage into a poorly-designed system, garbage out in terms of team composition and matches.

This.

Lock the thread.

I know for a fact that T4 and T5 are currently dropping in matches with T1's. You guys really must stop believing this "one Tier away MM" crap. It ISN'T TRUE. The gates are wide open, and have been for a very long time. That is why you're seeing what you're seeing. I think if they go back to 8 vs 8 it will help, but it's only a bandaid solution to the epidemic. And I don't think PGI has a clue how to fix the root cause (which is player exodus).

[C E Dwyer]

Khobai, on 08 December 2017 - 04:57 PM, said:

my understanding is that tier 3 and tier 1 can play together

tier 4 and tier 5 cant play with tier 1 though

That's how it used to be it's now only T1 and T2 as of about four months ago

Edited by Cathy, 09 December 2017 - 08:13 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

Appogee, on 08 December 2017 - 11:55 PM, said:

I've been getting low tier players in my matches since the beginning of last year.

I am not sure why the myth persists about not being dropped with people more than 2 tiers away. It's just not true. It hasn't been true for almost two years now.

The key issue with matchmaking is that low skill players aren't evenly distributed on the two teams. That's partly because PGI uses tiers to determine skill, but every potato increases in tier over time due to the upwards bias in the system. The other key reason is that there's no Elo-like distribution of relative skill across the two teams, or even anything that distributes players from the same unit across the teams.

Garbage into a poorly-designed system, garbage out in terms of team composition and matches.

The key issues is that PsR has an upward bias, this means people as in O.P's example will get to T1 if they play enough games.

This is our beloved balance over Lord ( the old one) deciding that everyone if they play enough games will be as good as those in the finals this weekend.

I.E His comprehension of PC and console game players, show less awareness than something that falls out a Bullocks bottom.

Remove it and people that are T1 now, will drop down a tier if they play often enough, T1's will still encounter these people, but as T2 fillers.

Second Issue is it doesn't make any concessions in the skill levels, as per above everyone that is T1 the MM decides should be at the Mech con finals, and not because they played nearly a thousand games each month.

I haven't worked out the math to back it up, but if you play 900 games a month ( god knows where you find time) you can gain in tier even if your W/L is 0.75, as long as you average match score is 200

[Unnatural Growth]

Cathy, on 09 December 2017 - 08:02 AM, said:

That's how it used to be it's now only T1 and T2 as of about four months ago

You have stated this kind of thing before in another thread. I asked you in that thread to name your source for this theory and I got no response from you on it.

I ask you again here, name your source for this claim.

Because I'm seeing with my own MK I Eyeball, in my own match team rosters that this is definitely NOT correct.

Name.

Your.

Source.

(Please).

Edited by OldOrgandonor, 09 December 2017 - 09:08 AM.

[Dogstar]

You know this would all be solved if PGI would just display a players tier in the match screen - then at least we'd know, FOR SURE, who we can (maybe) rely on and who doesn't have a clue

[Black Ivan]

MWO player population has gotten so low that the MM is breaking down

[Lightfoot]

AS I read it the only players you won't see with T1 players in drops are T5's. T5's and T1's never meet, everything else is in play.

[Mole]

arcana75, on 08 December 2017 - 11:09 PM, said:

All this is easily solved, by having the previous season's results define your tier for the next season.

I completely disagree. I can think of one way right off the bat why this is bad and even possibly exploitable by people who have enough patience. So. It's not uncommon for me to take breaks that can last for months at a time, then I later come back. If I am understanding your idea correctly, let's say I have played a bunch this season. When the season concludes, the server decides I should be tier 1. The server puts me in tier 1 for that season, but for one reason or another I've lost interest in the game this month. I play a couple matches that I don't do very well in because my heart just is not in it and I go away for a month. At the end of the season, the game decides I did so poorly that I should be in tier 5. Next month, I regain interest, and I return, ready to do my best. Now I'm in tier 5 clubbing seals for the next month.

[Ruslan Savelyev]

OldOrgandonor, on 09 December 2017 - 09:08 AM, said:

You have stated this kind of thing before in another thread. I asked you in that thread to name your source for this theory and I got no response from you on it.

I ask you again here, name your source for this claim.

Because I'm seeing with my own MK I Eyeball, in my own match team rosters that this is definitely NOT correct.

Name.

Your.

Source.

(Please).

https://mwomercs.com...ng-restrictions

Either there is a bug in the MM which has gone undiscovered for the last 3 months, or players are just obsessing over everyone else's perceived shortcomings instead of quickly evaluating their own side of the game and moving on to the next one.

There is a lot going on in this game, very large team sizes, and no towers to hide under if you get pushed 2(+)v1. Add in that the best and most popular mode in this game is "solo queue" and it is no surprise that you have 12 different ideas of how the game should play out, and no surprise that games fantastically dissolve because most of those people have a zealot's faith in their own infallible game plan.

Fixing the MM is a snipe hunt. PGI could make changes every week from now until humanity goes extinct, and that timeline would be filled with nothing but complaints from people who just lost a game.

Promote "premade" game play and put the wins and losses back in the hands of the players, not some theoretical code. Facebook and Google can't manage to keep 4chan trolls out of their feeds and search results, Google has spent the last 5+ years sending me the same ads because it thinks that when I pay my AmEx and MC I am actually shopping for a new card, and you think PGI is going to knock out a MM that evaluates my current match scores, weighs my performance with different loadouts, and whatever else gets dreamed up? Multi billion dollar companies can't get their technology to work worth a sh*t and you think PGI is going to get it done with the money they got from the 9 people who bought the Thanatos?

[arcana75]

Mole, on 09 December 2017 - 07:06 PM, said:

I completely disagree. I can think of one way right off the bat why this is bad and even possibly exploitable by people who have enough patience. So. It's not uncommon for me to take breaks that can last for months at a time, then I later come back. If I am understanding your idea correctly, let's say I have played a bunch this season. When the season concludes, the server decides I should be tier 1. The server puts me in tier 1 for that season, but for one reason or another I've lost interest in the game this month. I play a couple matches that I don't do very well in because my heart just is not in it and I go away for a month. At the end of the season, the game decides I did so poorly that I should be in tier 5. Next month, I regain interest, and I return, ready to do my best. Now I'm in tier 5 clubbing seals for the next month.

To incentivise people not to go away, or to commit more to the game, perhaps if the ladder system exists, then the higher the ladder the more rewards you get, eg Tier 1 = 50MC for the entire season, T2 40MC and so on. Or a multiplier on your match c-bills gains. While you might club seals in T5, you want to get to T1 to enjoy better rewards.

[Oldbob10025]

na i'm fine with having only T1 players play T1 players but dont ***** and complain when your waiting 25 mins for a quick play match.

Stats mean nothing and there is always someone better than you so remember that saying the same thing

[HGAK47]

When I got into T1 using Flying Spider 5V`s, dodgy Phoenix Hawks and Yen Lo Wang`s.... you know there is something fishy going on.

I would rate myself realistically at like T3 or T2, I see many worse and some much better than myself.

[HGAK47]

Asym, on 09 December 2017 - 04:10 AM, said:

In my generation of computer geeks it was WYSIWYG.....

Now I know why tier level isn't listed anywhere for a drop....
Everyone would have an umitigated heart attack, at both T1 and T5 levels, when players:
hide,
fight from behind,
not support and in a lot of drops lately,
refuse to actually engage the enemy ! I guess, they get damage magically at the end of a match somehow....... ?

Had another player whose name I recognize since I've been playing, be the last mech and refused to win the match simply by going into the circle and face an opponent with 1 small pulse laser and red and orange armor everywhere !!! People pleading, screaming on VOIP..... Refused to win because he didn't want to chance being destroyed....?!? Boy, I've seen a lot of silliness but that took the cake.

What have we become? Maybe, Hamlet had it right in Act 2, Sceen 2.......... "what a piece of work is man......."

In the words of Picard:
"Oh no I know Hamlet. And what he might say with irony I say with conviction.

What a piece of work is a man! How noble in reason! How infinite in faculty! In form, in moving how express and admirable! in action, how like an angel! in apprehension, how like a God?"

[CuriousCabbitBlue]

https://leaderboard....riousCabbitBlue phear my terribleness


but all is fine because there is J̱̰̺͍͈̬̉̍̈̒̉͗ͅu͔̬̬ͭͪ̇̽̓̊̆͊s̯̬̞̄͐͒ͧ͊ͪt̝̟̯͔̃̾̋̒ͥ͗ͤ̃ͣ ̰̬̝̫͊̎̅̂ͥ̾̓M̬̭̪̲̰͙͉͋ͧͬ́̔̌͊̅̊o͓͖͉ͬ͑ͦͫ̀͌ͬͅn̖̼̺̪̺̫̤̈̄͛̎͛i̥͚͌̌ͧ̂̍͊͆͂k̞̥̟̣̒̆͋ͧ͊͗̚a͕̙̭̙͒̊ͧ.̟̬̟̯̤̳̩̳́ͣͤJ̱̰̺͍͈̬̉̍̈̒̉͗ͅu͔̬̬ͭͪ̇̽̓̊̆͊s̯̬̞̄͐͒ͧ͊ͪt̝̟̯͔̃̾̋̒ͥ͗ͤ̃ͣ ̰̬̝̫͊̎̅̂ͥ̾̓M̬̭̪̲̰͙͉͋ͧͬ́̔̌͊̅̊o͓͖͉ͬ͑ͦͫ̀͌ͬͅn̖̼̺̪̺̫̤̈̄͛̎͛i̥͚͌̌ͧ̂̍͊͆͂k̞̥̟̣̒̆͋ͧ͊͗̚a͕̙̭̙͒̊ͧ.̟̬̟̯̤̳̩̳́ͣͤJ̱̰̺͍͈̬̉̍̈̒̉͗ͅu͔̬̬ͭͪ̇̽̓̊̆͊s̯̬̞̄͐͒ͧ͊ͪt̝̟̯͔̃̾̋̒ͥ͗ͤ̃ͣ ̰̬̝̫͊̎̅̂ͥ̾̓M̬̭̪̲̰͙͉͋ͧͬ́̔̌͊̅̊o͓͖͉ͬ͑ͦͫ̀͌ͬͅn̖̼̺̪̺̫̤̈̄͛̎͛i̥͚͌̌ͧ̂̍͊͆͂k̞̥̟̣̒̆͋ͧ͊͗̚a͕̙̭̙͒̊ͧ.̟̬̟̯̤̳̩̳́ͣͤJ̱̰̺͍͈̬̉̍̈̒̉͗ͅu͔̬̬ͭͪ̇̽̓̊̆͊s̯̬̞̄͐͒ͧ͊ͪt̝̟̯͔̃̾̋̒ͥ͗ͤ̃ͣ ̰̬̝̫͊̎̅̂ͥ̾̓M̬̭̪̲̰͙͉͋ͧͬ́̔̌͊̅̊o͓͖͉ͬ͑ͦͫ̀͌ͬͅn̖̼̺̪̺̫̤̈̄͛̎͛i̥͚͌̌ͧ̂̍͊͆͂k̞̥̟̣̒̆͋ͧ͊͗̚a͕̙̭̙͒̊ͧ.̟̬̟̯̤̳̩̳́ͣͤJ̱̰̺͍͈̬̉̍̈̒̉͗ͅu͔̬̬ͭͪ̇̽̓̊̆͊s̯̬̞̄͐͒ͧ͊ͪt̝̟̯͔̃̾̋̒ͥ͗ͤ̃ͣ ̰̬̝̫͊̎̅̂ͥ̾̓M̬̭̪̲̰͙͉͋ͧͬ́̔̌͊̅̊o͓͖͉ͬ͑ͦͫ̀͌ͬͅn̖̼̺̪̺̫̤̈̄͛̎͛i̥͚͌̌ͧ̂̍͊͆͂k̞̥̟̣̒̆͋ͧ͊͗̚a͕̙̭̙͒̊ͧ.̟̬̟̯̤̳̩̳́ͣͤJ̱̰̺͍͈̬̉̍̈̒̉͗ͅu͔̬̬ͭͪ̇̽̓̊̆͊s̯̬̞̄͐͒ͧ͊ͪt̝̟̯͔̃̾̋̒ͥ͗ͤ̃ͣ ̰̬̝̫͊̎̅̂ͥ̾̓M̬̭̪̲̰͙͉͋ͧͬ́̔̌͊̅̊o͓͖͉ͬ͑ͦͫ̀͌ͬͅn̖̼̺̪̺̫̤̈̄͛̎͛i̥͚͌̌ͧ̂̍͊͆͂k̞̥̟̣̒̆͋ͧ͊͗̚a͕̙̭̙͒̊ͧ.̟̬̟̯̤̳̩̳́ͣͤJ̱̰̺͍͈̬̉̍̈̒̉͗ͅu͔̬̬ͭͪ̇̽̓̊̆͊s̯̬̞̄͐͒ͧ͊ͪt̝̟̯͔̃̾̋̒ͥ͗ͤ̃ͣ ̰̬̝̫͊̎̅̂ͥ̾̓M̬̭̪̲̰͙͉͋ͧͬ́̔̌͊̅̊o͓͖͉ͬ͑ͦͫ̀͌ͬͅn̖̼̺̪̺̫̤̈̄͛̎͛i̥͚͌̌ͧ̂̍͊͆͂k̞̥̟̣̒̆͋ͧ͊͗̚a͕̙̭̙͒̊ͧ.̟̬̟̯̤̳̩̳́ͣͤ

[Brain Cancer]

UnofficialOperator, on 08 December 2017 - 04:39 PM, said:

Even during Primetime US, how are these people getting matched into T1 matches?

*snip*
This guy has a lot of matches so its not a fluke. He is literally a lifetime 30 percenter of the population. How is he not in T4 or T5 matches?

Witness the power of this fully armed and operational PSR system. The longer it runs, the more people like this filter into T1. It has never been a functional filter-by-skill system.

And guess who else finally ended up in T1? This guy.

HGAK47, on 10 December 2017 - 10:36 PM, said:

When I got into T1 using Flying Spider 5V`s, dodgy Phoenix Hawks and Yen Lo Wang`s.... you know there is something fishy going on.

I would rate myself realistically at like T3 or T2, I see many worse and some much better than myself.

T1 is full of people like you, and it will have even more like you over time. That's how the system works, as Paul guaranteed it would not work any other way with the amount of positive bias it provides right now.

[Brain Cancer]

Oldbob10025, on 10 December 2017 - 10:26 PM, said:

Stats mean nothing and there is always someone better than you so remember that saying the same thing

Except, you know as enough data accumulates, it provides a pretty darn good picture.

Someone with a .3 W/L over half a years worth of play you can trust isn't going to carry your match. That guy with a .4 K/D you better hope is an expert at getting KMDDs instead of just not hitting things. But he's probably not good at hitting things.
Of course, what we need is -more data-. KMDDs would be nice. Average damage/match would also be nice. We know damage and KMDDs are both tracked by the server, after all.

[Fleeb the Mad]

Cathy, on 09 December 2017 - 08:25 AM, said:

This is our beloved balance over Lord ( the old one) deciding that everyone if they play enough games will be as good as those in the finals this weekend.

Remove it and people that are T1 now, will drop down a tier if they play often enough, T1's will still encounter these people, but as T2 fillers.

Second Issue is it doesn't make any concessions in the skill levels, as per above everyone that is T1 the MM decides should be at the Mech con finals, and not because they played nearly a thousand games each month.

Hyperbole aside, there's a misconception here that needs to be clarified. Competitive players will generally be in tier 1, but that isn't the bar for what tier 1 is measured by. The competitive crowd account for 1% (or less) of the player base and are so rare in the solo queue that creating a separate bucket in the matchmaker is honestly a waste of resources. You have to think of things in terms of the casual players, who are the crushing majority in every tier.

Tier 1 and tier 2 tend to be mostly filled with experienced super casual folks by virtue of raw numbers, even if they only account for 10% of the player base each. The way the system actually functions is less to create super balanced matches for the top skill bracket and more to isolate new and inexperienced people from the sharks. For a while. Given there's eventual upward motion nobody will stay there forever.

Let that sink in a sec. The system continually punts people with a lot of games under their belt out of the lower tiers. It could simply be the system is intended to work that way for the sake of the bulk of the player base, as opposed to tier 1 being some sort of bragging rights objective. Nobody arrives in tier 1 without being either good, or having played enough that they shouldn't be sheltered. Given how slow it is you can't even say these players are being thrown to the wolves. It's thousands of games of steadily more difficult opponents.

Competitive and ranked ladders exist for people who want bragging rights or prizes. The tier system isn't for either of those things. Think of it less as 'these people shouldn't be in tier 1' and more of 'there's no reason to go easy someone who's played 5000 games.'

[Lightfoot]

Khobai, on 08 December 2017 - 04:57 PM, said:

my understanding is that tier 3 and tier 1 can play together

tier 4 and tier 5 cant play with tier 1 though

I was in a match last week when someone claimed to be T2 and another said they were T4 so I was just assuming that the rule was still no T5's vs T1's. Maybe T2 means you face a lot more T1's though.