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MWO Simulator work log


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#181 CyBerkut

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 02:47 PM

View PostLoc Nar, on 03 April 2013 - 10:32 AM, said:


Stick travel values:

Y-Axis - +/- 15°
X-Axis - +/- 22.5°

As to cursor travel, it's amazing how tiny it needs to be in browser mode for it to work in MWO. Now that I've found dialed settings, when I move my stick through it's range of travel in my browser (but while stick is active), the amount of movement is so slight it's hard to convey. I use a normal arrow pointer for reference. In the Y axis, it moves about 1 full cursor height above neutral and 1 below, for a total travel distance of about 300% the size of the cursor itself. In Y axis it travels much farther, perhaps 4 or 5 times the width of the cursor, to either side for a total of around 900-1100% the width of the cursor. I'm not sure what it works out to in pixels, but if I taped off a box on my 23" 1080p screen, all cursor movement would take place in a rectangle about 9/16" tall and 1" wide!


I think you meant "In X axis..." in that underlined part. :)

#182 Syllogy

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 07:22 AM

What software are you using to set up the Keybinds for your custom buttons?

#183 Foust

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 09:19 AM

View PostSyllogy, on 11 April 2013 - 07:22 AM, said:

What software are you using to set up the Keybinds for your custom buttons?


A program called SVmapper. Honestly though there are a number of programs available that will let you assign key strokes to joystick buttons. (There is a good chance I have tried most of them.) Some others are Xpadder, Autohotkey (if you dont mind some scripting) JoytoKey.... I liked SVmapper in particular because it will support a lot of buttons on a single joystick (I was at 75)

Since I'm here, I might as well talk about the experiments I have been doing. I am really really close to getting a T16000M yet one thing holding me back from it is ironically enough the conversations here with Loc nar regarding stick design and control. Since the T16k uses a similar saturn ring centering system as the MS precision pro I have while I would gain the benefit of TARGET for axis manipulations, I would still not gain get the absolution static stick positioning unless I somehow can convert a saturn ring to a static position gimbal.

So that was the goal tuesday evening. Tear down the non-USB compatible MS precision pro, work out a mod and then slap the USB compatible MS precision pro board on the bottom of it. I did not take pictures of this endeavor but if someone really wants to see what I did I could be talked into documenting it. I stripped the thing down removing both the rotational centering spring and the stick centering spring and then reassembled the gimbal. As expected, it flopped freely about. I started thinking about making two circular plates and sandwiching a greased plastic sheet in there with the stick through the center. That wasnt going to hold the rotational axis though so I thought a simple foam ring around the shaft could accomplish that. So I started looking at ways to mount all that theoretical stuff, then it hit me. Why not try a foam disc with a path way for the Y axis cut out, yet tight enough hold the rotation pressed in along the top of the ball of the gimbal?

Yeah I should have taken a picture.

So I took a piece of foamy, cut it to fit into the stick body and put the gimbal back together. Much to my surprise, it worked. It worked maybe to well as it is a bit stiff yet well enough that I put the entire thing back together to test it out. As I said above I think I have tried just about every joystick mapper/profile/keybinder I could find, with various degrees of success. Nothing really satisfied what I was trying to achieve vs what I am told and believe that TARGET could do for me. I have tried so many different applications that I forgot about one that I was using before I even got into this stick manipulation business. Xpadder.

With the new static gimbal MS Precision Pro and Xpadder I was able to get something much closer to what I was after. I did not use the rotational axis for X as Loc nar for the experiment but I certainly will be before this is all said and done. I have more testing and tweaking to do. Not to mention finding a good way to calibrate this thing when it doesn't center automatically. As a bonus, I still have a unmodified stick that I can drop the board into and go back to stock.

Edited by Foust, 12 April 2013 - 11:56 AM.


#184 Loc Nar

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 12:24 PM

Quote

Yeah I should have taken a picture.


Yes, yes you should have. :) ...heh, taking pics is usually the part that hangs up a lot of what I want to do. By the time I'm actually working on stuff, due to my small space and overabundance of stuff it's hard to take pics without backgrounds that clutter the foreground into uselessness, whether in my garage or apartment. Still though, cluttered pics are better than no pics!

*Ya know, there is one other solution that I haven't explored yet due to lack of necessity, but the easiest way to gain full control of a stick and have it work like a mouse is to gut a mouse and use it's optical sensor mated to the bottom of the gimbal. The 'mousepad' would be a small fixed compound curve section just big enough to allow the full travel of the optical sensor. I have been thinking about building such a stick for quite some time, but don't think I've mentioned it until now cause I always wanted to make it first and it slips my mind in the meantime. You could still use Teensy this way if you wanted, since it's only button mapping at that point, or other stuff that can be done in AHK etc, breaking the TARGET monopoly. If it's made with a nice gaming mouse, it would be super precise, have dual or better sensitivity, absolute inputs, enough buttons/hats to populate a nice stick and so on.

The whole exercise becomes a rather simplish mechanical affair focusing on the gimbal and it having the right length arms opposite the pivots in order to give the optical sensor the correct range of motion/travel and all attention can then be paid to making the axes move smooth with consistent damping, which was the third demon I had to slay (first being absolute inputs, second being zenith/azimuth gimbal). On that subject, I have abandoned springs for supplying the tension on the rubs on my stick, in favor of rubber cushions of various durometer. The advantages are noticeable on compact arrangements such as a gimbal, since it takes a lot less threaded portion of an axle shank to accommodate. I have found it easier to achieve more consistent/even loads at higher pressures too, so overall just works better and easier to implement in practice. The larger the surface area, the better it works (big *** fender washers are your friend!). The key to making all these tensioned rubs not just work, but work well and remain consistent over the wear of time is a small item, but a non negotiable one -the thrust bearing in between the tension nut and the washers/doughnuts. This relieves almost all load from that spot you don't want friction, and all relevant frictional forces then come from where you want -the greased plastic rubs being precisely squeezed.

Bravo on continued objective exploration. Sounds like your experiment started allowing your hand to finally get a peek at the possibilities too. As tio calibrating it, well that's a whole nother thing. With TARGET sticks, first thing when it's plugged in is running it through it's basic calibration process that establishes range of motion and centers on the pots, then fire up the script. What's neat is it allows me to use different ranges of motion based on the mech, since without physical stops on my stick, it registers the stop as wherever I happen to stop it. Shorter stop = more sensitive since it uses less range of motion to generate full inputs and visa versa, but I think I'm digressing...

*mouse optical sensor hack as described was my fallback position last summer in case the Cougar bits weren't gonna work on my stick. The original counterweight seen in pics 2-4 was built that way to potentially accommodate the sensor, putting it out far in both axes in order to maximize 'mousepad' surface area and hence precision, but after proper function was established made a more compact arrangement.

Edited by Loc Nar, 12 April 2013 - 12:37 PM.


#185 Foust

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 06:16 AM

View PostLoc Nar, on 12 April 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:


*Ya know, there is one other solution that I haven't explored yet due to lack of necessity


Get out of my head.

I thought of something similar, only using the entire mouse contained in the base of the stick....

I will try to get pics up tonight of the little work I did on the pit this weekend. Right panel back cut out, new switch panel built....

I would get so much more work done if I would stop playing the game. My wife says I have a problem, I keep telling her I can stop whenever I want.

Edited by Foust, 15 April 2013 - 06:17 AM.


#186 Foust

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 08:00 PM

Real quick pic of what I've been working on.

Posted Image

My rather optimistic goal is to be sans keyboard in the pit by the end of the week.

#187 Ulric Kell

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 04:38 AM

Ahh Control Panels. That's pretty much what I've been working on this week too! I like your buttons, where did you procure them from? Mine will be a bit different from yours in that I have back light as a derivative of the White Acrylic/Black paint/Laser engraved surface. But I love the modular look of yours as well!

Posted Image

#188 Foust

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 05:17 AM

The switches are just a basic square push button and cap I ordered from Jameco (Jameco #155380 and 155389) The arrows are just printed and cut from plain paper, just like the labels.

I stalked you over to DHB's site, your build is awesome. I am glad I found it.

#189 Syllogy

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 08:22 AM

Is there a website or forum that you can link that references how to build a USB-driven custom panel with switches and buttons?

#190 Foust

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 09:10 AM

View PostSyllogy, on 17 April 2013 - 08:22 AM, said:

Is there a website or forum that you can link that references how to build a USB-driven custom panel with switches and buttons?


There are so many different ways to go about it, keyboard hacks, off the shelf HID boards, joystick hacks, teensy++...

A lot of my info on panel building came from lurking forums for sim builders, sites like SimHQ or ViperPits and there are many more out there. For interfacing the switches to the PC look for arcade machine building sites to as the interface is basically the same.

The easiest solution is to use a off the shelf keyboard encoder board.

I went the route of a Teensy++ and GenericHID at first to rebuild a old suncom stick, then to rebuild a F22 HOTAS, and now it looks like it will be getting put on switch duty. It is a flexible solution.

I have some pictures earlier on in this thread that show how I am building my panels. For toggles, I use a aluminum back plate that the toggles attach to. On top of that I have what is referred to on viperpits as a light plate. This has cut outs large enough that the top nut of the toggles rest inside this plate. On top of that I lay the label sheet, which is nothing more than a design I worked up in vizio and printed off on plain paper. The final layer is a piece of acrylic that is to protect the label and bring the panel surface flush to the top of the threaded are of the switch.

Since I am using the teensy++, windows will see the switches as a joystick with 32 buttons (You can have more, but windows joystick "tool" wont show them) A program like SVmapper or Xpadder will allow you to map those joystick buttons to keyboard presses, as well as let you use a toggle switch as a momentary switch without adding additional hardware. (One of my very favorite features)

I said earlier that my goal was to be sans keyboard in the pit by the end of the week, and its looking like that might have been an ambitious goal considering the plans my wife has made for our evenings. Assuming I get some time to run the soldering iron, I will take some pics of the process and perhaps better document the Teensy++ and GenericHID process.

Edited by Foust, 17 April 2013 - 09:12 AM.


#191 CyBerkut

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 03:32 PM

Some other potentially useful links for Syllogy and other interested folks:

Leo Bodnar's site. Leo is the maker of the venerable BUO836 family of HID boards used by many to make custom controllers, etc. He now offers a simplified 32 button board that doesn't include the axis capabilities. Once you get on his site, you can navigate around to check out the rest of his offerings. (Warning: Leo is notorious for not reading e-mail, but is reputedly pretty reliable for fulfilling orders. He has good information up, but is not somebody you can expect a lot of hand holding from.)
http://www.leobodnar...13eb78a41812ce2

The Way I Play forums. Most of the folks are there are into automotive racing pits, but there are also some for aviation, mecha, etc. A wealth of information and inspiration there, including a lot of pics.
http://www.thewayipl...forum/index.php

The Eagle Dynamics forums. Makers of the Digital Combat Simulator series of high fidelity air combat sims, there is an active and very creative pit building community in there.
http://forums.eagle....splay.php?f=101
http://forums.eagle....isplay.php?f=96

#192 Foust

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 07:17 PM

Here are a couple more panels.

Posted Image

Got to get some more hex headed bolts. two more spots to fill in and the right side console will be ready for wiring.

I threw the MS PP stick back into the spring centered body and played around with xpadder. I can independently adjust axis sensitivity with it. I ran around in the training grounds and think I got a good balance. I tried using RZ for torso traversal, but I kept returning to the x axis by instinct when I wanted to turn my torso. I decided to not try to reprogram myself, so I will run with a standard stick setup with the adjusted axis curves.

Since I decided that it was going to be a no play day anyway, I also plugged in the TM afterburner II FFB stick in and put the throttle in place. Assigned it in MWO and it works. I would like it to be at 0 throttle at the idle detente instead of at the center of it travel, but I might just have to deal with that. I decided that I liked the layout of this throttle to the F22 throttle even though I like the appreance of the F22 throttle so much more. As far as that goes, I like the F22 stick appearance far better than the MS PP stick, but the MS stick is so accurate and light....

Maybe I can cross them....

#193 Foust

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 06:51 AM

You might recall how I spent countless hours rewiring the F22 stick. Last night while I was waiting for my lance mates to log in, I was doing some thinking.

In its current state, I was not going to use that F22 stick. That was a shame. I really liked the way the MS PP stick felt, but hated the appearance. That was a shame. How could I get the style of the F22 stick, and the function of the MS PP stick?

BEHOLD the birth of FrankenStick!!

First step, cut out the hours of wiring I put into the F22.

Posted Image

Next, Cut down the PCB that was in the top of the MS stick so that it fits in the handle of the F22.

Posted Image

Step 3, wire all the triggers to that PCB, including the top hat. Wire the up/forward of the remaining hats to the switches on the base. Forget to take a picture of this.

Put it back together and you get this.

Posted ImagePosted Image

And it works! My concern about it centering itself turns out to have been misplaced. Centers great, stays stable. Maintains the same ease of throw.

However, Im not done with it. I did not finish the wiring to the base. I want to make that removable so I need some connectors. I miss-wired the bottom switch, so I need to open it back up to fix that. I'll try to remember to take a pic while I'm in there. I think I will shorten the post going into the stick handle, the height adds travel distance but I was able to stay on target with a jenner, so it might not be so bad.

I need to find a better way of adding to diameter of the post. Right now it is a few wraps of electrical tape. I also want to add the "ears" that the F22 stick post had to aid in the mounting.

Other thing I may try to address is the base of that stick. I hate it. I don't want to see it. I blame Loc Nar. ;) I might try hiding it under the strake. I don't have a good solution yet. Might hack up the PCB, if I do I will document it.

Next thing on the agenda, wire the F22 Throttle and the foot pedals into the afterburner FFB sticks controls. Then I free up the Teensy++ for simple switch inputs.

#194 Ice Naga

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 07:15 PM

View PostFoust, on 17 April 2013 - 07:17 PM, said:

Here are a couple more panels.

Posted Image

Got to get some more hex headed bolts. two more spots to fill in and the right side console will be ready for wiring.

I threw the MS PP stick back into the spring centered body and played around with xpadder. I can independently adjust axis sensitivity with it. I ran around in the training grounds and think I got a good balance. I tried using RZ for torso traversal, but I kept returning to the x axis by instinct when I wanted to turn my torso. I decided to not try to reprogram myself, so I will run with a standard stick setup with the adjusted axis curves.

Since I decided that it was going to be a no play day anyway, I also plugged in the TM afterburner II FFB stick in and put the throttle in place. Assigned it in MWO and it works. I would like it to be at 0 throttle at the idle detente instead of at the center of it travel, but I might just have to deal with that. I decided that I liked the layout of this throttle to the F22 throttle even though I like the appreance of the F22 throttle so much more. As far as that goes, I like the F22 stick appearance far better than the MS PP stick, but the MS stick is so accurate and light....

Maybe I can cross them....

What size toggle switches are those and where did you find those large buttons?

#195 Pht

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 07:54 PM

View PostFoust, on 30 April 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

BEHOLD the birth of FrankenStick!!


And it works! My concern about it centering itself turns out to have been misplaced. Centers great, stays stable. Maintains the same ease of throw.


After many, MANY moons of having and having to re-tweak my P-Pro stick, I can tell you, you might want to find a way to "toughen" the plastic bumpers that the twist axis spring (not the MAIN coil) rest on. These bumpers seem to always and invariably wear down, causing reticule drift and other oddities in anything tied to the twist axis.

Otherwise, the stick seems to be pretty well made.

At the very least, you might consider dabbing (carefully) some lubricant that will stick to the spring legs and the plastic "bumpers" ... and preferably one with some EP (extreme pressure) additive in it, so that the spring won't squeeze/wipe the stuff off of the bumpers. Just make sure it doesn't foul up any of the electronics.

#196 Foust

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 04:10 AM

View PostIce Naga, on 30 April 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

What size toggle switches are those and where did you find those large buttons?


The toggles are from Jameco, part number 158078. They were the cheapest full size DPDT I could find at the time.

The large buttons I actually made. I cut a square out of the base piece of acrylic and a matching sized square for the top of the switch. The base follows the same build technique as the rest of my panels. The switch top I glued to the cap of one of the push button switches and then mounted the switch such that the top just rests just inside the base.

I know, I know. I should have taken pictures. Ill see about correcting that picture problem.

#197 Propnut

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 06:54 AM

Hey Foust, although I have abandoned my Mechpit project, you can see other projects that I am working on at Hornetpits.org.

I, and others, are building F/A-18 Hornet cockpits over there. Still using the Teensy++2.0 controller for several projects, including an ICP Module for the F-16 Viper pits.

#198 Ulric Kell

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 07:09 AM

View PostPropnut, on 01 May 2013 - 06:54 AM, said:

Hey Foust, although I have abandoned my Mechpit project, you can see other projects that I am working on at Hornetpits.org.

I, and others, are building F/A-18 Hornet cockpits over there. Still using the Teensy++2.0 controller for several projects, including an ICP Module for the F-16 Viper pits.



No more battletech pit? Blasphemy! Send me all your POD2.5/3.0 stuffs or some Tesla stuff you are throwing away!!

Just playing. I've seen your SimPit stuff before and it's impressive. I love the Acrylic paneling. How do you like the engraved vs. laser cut?

#199 Propnut

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 08:53 AM

I have been using engraving, especially since I made a floating tool holder. Laser engraving is very very nice but now I think mine is just as good (on the router CNC).

As I said Kell, 500.00 and it is yours, come pick it up :P

#200 Halfbreed

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 11:06 AM

Foust you are my hero. This is amazingly awesome! Keep up the great work.

Once its finished I would love to take a vacation to where ever you live and just bask in the glory that is you and your creation.





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