60 replies to this topic

[Revis Volek]

Muujig612, on 09 December 2017 - 10:48 PM, said:

Only cause the matches are on Conquest mode. Streaks are less useful on most other modes.

Mechs die the same in every mode


I dont see your logic, unless you are hitting on the fact that as tonnage goes up streak viability and ability goes down. They work better on little guys!

Edited by Revis Volek, 10 December 2017 - 09:19 AM.

[Davegt27]

also streaks have received several nerfs this year

so they are going to get used less and less
I have streaks because I have multiple Mechs and to me it sucks to have nothing
but laser vomit or dakka vomit

its almost impossible to lock on to a locust and if your going against a light that has ECM for get it

still my once great Streak Wolf (RIP) has been replaced by my Artic Streak

[Thorqemada]

I am pretty angry with the comp guys - they whined until the skillless IS SSRM2 got (s)killed and then (s)killfully start using the Clan-mass-streaks...

Skill is not how good you use it but who god uses it it seems

Edited by Thorqemada, 10 December 2017 - 09:25 AM.

[Revis Volek]

Vxheous, on 10 December 2017 - 03:19 AM, said:

It does really well when facing teams that bring arctic cheetahs and mist lynx. Problem is EON favored Wolfhoubds which are extremwly durable to streaks, which is why in the final set of the double elimination, we switched our streaks for a more conventional hunchie.

On one of the drops in that last series (i think 3) that HMN launched volley after volley into that WLF (3 at least) until he wiggeld away for a bit came back and got a final alpha at it (which i even thought was the kill shot) and overheats. WLF laughs as he turns around and kills him in uber structure

mental.

Edited by Revis Volek, 10 December 2017 - 09:24 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Meta - Most Effective Tactic Available.

To a good player that means "what's the best mech, loadout and team composition to complete the objectives? What's worked before and what can I make work now?"

To a bad player that means "those guys only use 1 or 2 builds, ever, I should take something totally stupid so I look cool and edgy and independent. Also then I can say I lose because I didn't run meta trash, not because I just played badly".

Meta is limited because the great majority of players consistently make the same bad mistakes both in gameplay and in the mechlab so the best way to farm them doesn't change much. However against good players that opens up a lot because you'll have a lot of different situations to deal with.

[Davegt27]

yeah I saw that
(huntsman over heat that is and die)

the huntsman is not so good with streaks because its to slow for the current Meta

I already switched to the Artic Wolf with 3 Streak 6's and one Streak 4 and 2 CERSML

and it does over 100 KPH

Edited by Davegt27, 10 December 2017 - 09:30 AM.

[MischiefSC]

The WLF rarely took the whole streak burst, benefit of a fast poke light.

[Revis Volek]

MischiefSC, on 10 December 2017 - 09:31 AM, said:

The WLF rarely took the whole streak burst, benefit of a fast poke light.

That isnt exclusive to the WF though. JVN, FS9 and other can as well but they cant take that beating. I can mid range poke with most IS lights but the WLF is the go to mech because you can make mistakes (often a big one) and walk away (or run).

Davegt27, on 10 December 2017 - 09:30 AM, said:

yeah I saw that
(huntsman over heat that is and die)

the huntsman is not so good with streaks because its to slow for the current Meta

I already switched to the Artic Wolf with 3 Streak 6's and one Streak 4 and 2 CERSML

and it does over 100 KPH

I still prefer the SCR for that role, other then not having JJ's its the only mech i would use on most maps. But the HMN is right call on canyon because you needs to jump to chase lights there. I still prefer SRM's though over streaks in most situations that role the HMN was playing last night being the only real exception.

It was just a error on the pilots part and a symptom of paper dolls not reflecting structure and armor buffs. Simply something to learn from.

[Muujig612]

Revis Volek, on 10 December 2017 - 09:18 AM, said:

Mechs die the same in every mode

I dont see your logic, unless you are hitting on the fact that as tonnage goes up streak viability and ability goes down. They work better on little guys!

Naturally. Conquest mode, especially in FP requires speed over tonnage, which allows streak mechs to shine against swift light mechs.

[Xiphias]

Thorqemada, on 10 December 2017 - 09:24 AM, said:

I am pretty angry with the comp guys - they whined until the skillless IS SSRM2 got (s)killed and then (s)killfully start using the Clan-mass-streaks...

Skill is not how good you use it but who god uses it it seems

Streaks are still a low skill weapon. Their effectiveness has no bearing on the skill required to use them.

[Khobai]

lasers require even less skill though. lasers are the most easy mode weapon there is in MWO. hitscan at all ranges, good range, beam duration that allows for aim correction. And you can fire a very high alpha with minimal exposure time. and lasers dont really have any counters except maybe flamers. it doesnt get any easier than lasers.

whereas streaks have multiple counters and weaknesses. and streaks are really only good against lights. theyre pretty much useless in any other capacity.

Edited by Khobai, 10 December 2017 - 10:19 AM.

[Appogee]

And look how well they worked...

Not at all.

[Xiphias]

Khobai, on 10 December 2017 - 10:15 AM, said:

lasers require even less skill though. lasers are the most easy mode weapon there is in MWO.

and streaks are really only good against lights. theyre pretty much useless in any other capacity.

It's harder to hold a full laser burn on a fast moving light than it is to lock and shoot streaks at a light. Streaks are the lowest skill weapon. Sure, it's easier to get a hit with lasers, but it's harder to use lasers to maximum effectiveness than it is to do the same with streaks.

[Khobai]

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It's harder to hold a full laser burn on a fast moving light than it is to lock and shoot streaks at a light.

killing lights is only one aspect of the game though, and lasers are better at killing everything that isnt a light.

killing an assault with streaks requires more skill than killing an assault with lasers.

because its harder to do.

anyone can laser vomit an assault in the CT three or four times till it dies. Thats easy. but picking an assault apart with streaks at 270m while staying alive requires a lot more skill. I could train my grandma to laser vomit and I bet she could do more than 12 damage on polar highlands.

so saying streaks require no skill is simply wrong. theres plenty of examples where using streaks does require skill. it simply requires a different skillset, like positioning yourself relative to the assault to maximize the chances of the streaks going into the location you want (usually into its back) while avoiding getting hit as much as possible. thats a skill.

Edited by Khobai, 10 December 2017 - 10:38 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Harder /= more skill. Bad efficiency or poor design choices /= more skill.

[Xiphias]

Khobai, on 10 December 2017 - 10:26 AM, said:

but lasers are better at killing everything that isnt a light.

killing an assault with streaks requires more skill than killing an assault with lasers.

because its harder to do.

anyone can laser vomit an assault in the CT three or four times till it dies. Thats easy. but picking an assault apart with streaks while staying alive requires a lot more skill.

Harder =/= more skill.

That's a flawed argument and definition. Skill is what is inside a player's control. The more a player's actions affect the outcome the more skill is involved.

It's harder to flip a coin and get 10 heads in a row that it is to get a single head. That doesn't mean it takes more skill to get 10 random coin flips to go one direction, just that it's harder. Chess is about skill, dice is about luck. Difficulty doesn't matter.

Lasers are more effective than streaks against most targets, but they also require more player input to be effective, therefor they are a "higher skill" weapon.

[Khobai]

harder absolutely does require more skill.

if you have two players, and one starts at a disadvantage, yet both players do the same amount of damage

the one that overcame his disadvantage is more skilled

like in chess, if you win with a handicap, as opposed to winning without a handicap, youre more skilled.

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Lasers are more effective than streaks against most targets, but they also require more player input to be effective, therefor they are a "higher skill" weapon.

im not sure where youre getting that from. streaks require just as much if not more player input.

it just requires a different set of skills. streaks require positional skills rather than aiming skills.

Quote

It's harder to flip a coin and get 10 heads in a row that it is to get a single head. That doesn't mean it takes more skill to get 10 random coin flips to go one direction, just that it's harder. Chess is about skill, dice is about luck. Difficulty doesn't matter.

but streaks arnt completely random. you have limited ability to aim them depending on the target's facing.

you seem to not understand that. and its a fundamental concept of using streaks effectively.

for example, killing assaults with streaks requires you to properly position your mech and time your streaks to hit their backs. you need to set that shot up with player input. they dont just automatically curve around into the assault's backside.

lasers require far less skill. you can literally just drill through an assault mech with huge laser vomit alphas. and it doesnt require much effort. again I could train my grandma to do it lol. lasers are very intuitive and easy to use, even for new players. And while a new player could probably kill lights with streaks, theyre going to have a much harder time killing assaults with streaks, than if they just used lasers. Because taking down an assault with streaks requires additional skills.

Quote

Harder /= more skill. Bad efficiency or poor design choices /= more skill.

wrong. playing with a handicap in chess is bad efficiency/design choice. Because youre using less than the optimal number of chess pieces.

but if you win regardless of the handicap youre considered to have more skill than if you won without the handicap.

in fact thats the whole point of handicaps, to adjust for different skill levels by making the game harder for the more skilled player.

Edited by Khobai, 10 December 2017 - 11:06 AM.

[Xiphias]

Khobai, on 10 December 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

harder absolutely does require more skill.

if you have two players, and one starts at a disadvantage, yet both players do the same amount of damage

the one that overcame his disadvantage is more skilled

like in chess, if you win with a handicap against a player without a handicap, youre more skilled.

Only if your ability affects the outcome.

Say two players are flipping coins randomly at the same rate. One player has to get 10 heads in a row while the other player only has to get 5 heads in a row. It's harder for the player to get 10 heads in a row, but that player can still win. Either way win or lose they is no skill involved. Difficulty =/= skill.

The example of chess is like taking 2 lasers instead of 4 lasers. It doesn't take any more skill to use 2 laser than it does to use 4, in fact 4 could be harder due to heat management. If a player with 2 lasers beats one with 4 lasers we would say that the player with 2 lasers is more skilled. That doesn't mean using two lasers requires more weapon skill, just that overcoming a handicap requires a skill difference between the players. Weapon skill =/= as player skill.

A player that can consistently beat an assault mech with only streaks is going to be more skilled than the player in the assault. The mechanical task of locking streaks and shooting them though is still really easy, the easiest mechanism in MWO to get consistent damage with. At a certain point the amount of effect a player's ability can have on the outcome reaches a peak. FOr streaks this peak is pretty low due to the nature of the weapon. For lasers a player could theoretically always hit the cockpit, I don't know anyone who can do that so that's a high skill cap. In practice, if two good players compete lasers will beat streaks (heavier mechs) because the player with lasers gets more return for the amount of skill they put in.

[MischiefSC]

Khobai, on 10 December 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

harder absolutely does require more skill.

if you have two players, and one starts at a disadvantage, yet both players do the same amount of damage

the one that overcame his disadvantage is more skilled

No. Skill can overcome mistakes (like bad builds) but bad builds don't involve more skill. Gimping yourself is irrelevant to skill. It doesn't take more skill, it just puts you at a disadvantage. It really leans more I to luck than skill nor does it teach you more skill. Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes you perfect.

Wanting to misrepresent poor choices as higher skill doesn't work.

[Khobai]

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Gimping yourself is irrelevant to skill.

nope.

if someone with a gimp build does better than someone with a meta build

it means theyre a better player

did they disadvantage themselves by using a gimp build? sure. but thats not whats relevant. whats relevant is that they did better with their gimp build than someone with a meta build. that means higher skill.

Quote

Wanting to misrepresent poor choices as higher skill doesn't work.

but when you make poor choices and do better than someone who made good choices, its absolutely representative of higher skill. and thats exactly what were talking about.

doing gud in a bad build requires more skill than doing gud in a gud build. the more difficult something is the higher the skill required to overcome the added difficulty. its a fairly simple concept to grasp.


being skilled does not always mean using the best possible build. thats not the definition of skill. the definition of skill is doing something well. It doesnt matter if its a gimped build or the best build possible. As long as you do it well its considered skillful. And if youre in a gimped build and outperform a meta build thats even more skillful yet because you had a handicap.

Edited by Khobai, 10 December 2017 - 11:23 AM.