60 replies to this topic

[Xiphias]

To your edit:

Khobai, on 10 December 2017 - 10:41 AM, said:

im not sure where youre getting that from. streaks require just as much if not more player input.

Once a lock has been achieved streaks will hit the target as long as it is maintained. It is easy to get a lock and it is really easy to hold a lock. I've done it, I know.

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it just requires a different set of skills. streaks require positional skills rather than aiming skills.

All weapons require piloting/positional skill. This isn't exclusive to streaks. Being able to get close to a target is a skill sure, but SPLs also require a player to get close (closer than streaks) to do damage. The positional skill in general doesn't have bearing on the weapon skill.

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but streaks arnt completely random. you have limited ability to aim them depending on the target's facing.

you seem to not understand that. and its a fundamental concept of using streaks effectively.

Just like every other weapon. Sure, if I shoot someone in the back with streaks I'm going to damage their back. I understand that and know how to use that. However, other that bulk positioning streaks have minimal user control. For example if I have lasers my movement affects my aim. If I step on a small rock it can cause me to miss a burn completely. You also need to hold consistent damage on the same component to be effective. Streaks don't have any of this, it's just line up roughly the angle of attack and pull the trigger.

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for example, killing assaults with streaks requires you to properly position your mech and time your streaks to hit their backs. you need to set that shot up with player input. they dont just automatically curve around into the assault's backside.

Again, you can do the same thing with lasers. Positioning skill is not the same as weapon skill. Streaks require you to lock a target and pull a trigger. Everything else is common to other weapon systems. Lasers have to position the same as streaks and then still hold the reticle on target to do optimal damage, this is harder that clicking to fire missiles.

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lasers require far less skill. you can literally just drill through an assault mech with huge laser vomit alphas. and it doesnt require much effort. again I could train my grandma to do it lol. lasers are very intuitive and easy to use, even for new players. And while a new player could probably kill lights with streaks, theyre going to have a much harder time killing assaults with streaks, than if they just used lasers. Because taking down an assault with streaks requires additional skills.

Again, being effective doesn't take away from the skill of a weapon. Sure, a bad player might do better with lasers against an assault than with streaks because lasers are a better counter. That doesn't mean that it doesn't require more skill to position and hold the lasers burns on target. PPCs take more skill than lasers because it's harder to hit the target. The skill required to hit the target doesn't chance if the PPC does 1 damage or if it does 100.

Khobai, on 10 December 2017 - 11:08 AM, said:

nope.

if someone with a gimp build does better than someone with a meta build

it means theyre a better player

but when you make poor choices and do better than someone who made good choices, its absolutely representative of higher skill. and thats exactly what were talking about.

Sure, but that doesn't make the weapon require more skill. It speaks more to the lack of skill of the player you are beating than to the amount of skill that you have.

Gimping yourself doesn't increase your skill though. The skill is the same. Weapon skill is about the mechanical difficulty of scoring effective damage to your target. Player skill is a combination of abilities. You can be high skill and take streaks, that doesn't mean streaks are inherently a high skill weapon.

[MischiefSC]

No. The only relation it has to skill is it shows poor skill in tool selection. Generally it just indicates luck. While a good player can get decent performance out of bad builds playing in bad builds doesn't make them good, it makes them bad at taking good builds. Largely it's advocating skill for luck, because taking the right tools is a skill and a critical one.

Playing bad builds only teaches you to play bad builds. It doesn't teach you to be good.

A very simple thing to grasp.

Edited to add -

As Alphas said, take streaks. It takes less skill to get damage with streaks because auto lock auto aim. A high skill player can still get performance out of streaks but the problem is that streaks, by auto aim, negate a lot of applicable skill. They cap skill potential. A low skill weapon is hard for a high skill player because it lowers skill ceiling. That doesn't make them high skill - it makes them bad outside of their narrow role.

A real high skill player would avoid situations where he had streaks vs heavies.

Edited by MischiefSC, 10 December 2017 - 11:22 AM.

[Revis Volek]

MischiefSC, on 10 December 2017 - 11:17 AM, said:

No. The only relation it has to skill is it shows poor skill in tool selection. Generally it just indicates luck. While a good player can get decent performance out of bad builds playing in bad builds doesn't make them good, it makes them bad at taking good builds. Largely it's advocating skill for luck, because taking the right tools is a skill and a critical one.

Playing bad builds only teaches you to play bad builds. It doesn't teach you to be good.

A very simple thing to grasp.

You could argue that luck is nothing more then seizing opportunity which could be a skill but thats for another discussion.


But i agree, decision making and skill are two different things.

[Xiphias]

Khobai, on 10 December 2017 - 11:08 AM, said:

but when you make poor choices and do better than someone who made good choices, its absolutely representative of higher skill. and thats exactly what were talking about.

doing gud in a bad build requires more skill than doing gud in a gud build. its a fairly simple concept to grasp.

A build could be the best build (100% instant kill), but require so much skill that it was practically impossible to do. A select few players could use that build effectively and it would the "best" build. For anyone else though that build would be useless and a player using a lower skilled weapon could beat the lower skilled player because they didn't have the skill to use the weapon to it's full advantage.

That wouldn't mean the low skilled weapon required more skill, just that at the skill level being played the low skill weapon was a better choice.

You concept is fundamentally flawed because it can be easy to do bad in a good build (say a new player and gauss), but easy to do good in a bad build (streaks work pretty well if you and your opponents can't aim).

Skill floor is the minimum amount of skill required to be somewhat effective (both streaks and lasers have a low skill floor, gauss has a comparatively high skill floor). Skill ceiling is the maximum amount of player ability that continues to have a measurable effect on performance (streaks have a low skill ceiling)

The way that you determine skill is comparing a weapon to itself between players of differing skill levels. A poor player with streaks can do almost as well as a good player with streaks, where as a poor player with lasers will waste far more damage than a good player with lasers.

[Thorqemada]

Using the most easy way to achive most possible success isnt skill - it is oportunism!

In war you would likely be an oportunist - in sport it is lame!

To me Mechwarrior is sorta Sport...

Edited by Thorqemada, 10 December 2017 - 11:36 AM.

[Spam Lanwalker]

lol only t1 and t2 tryhards care about this esport shi* xD

[Revis Volek]

Spam Lanwalker, on 10 December 2017 - 11:44 AM, said:

lol only t1 and t2 tryhards care about this esport shi* xD

I care about it one because its fun and two because it promotes a game and Universe i enjoy very much.



My tears are irrelevant. Oh you meant tier. same ting.

[Muujig612]

Spam Lanwalker, on 10 December 2017 - 11:44 AM, said:

lol only t1 and t2 tryhards care about this esport shi* xD

It has nothing to do with tiers though.

[Davegt27]

saying something is low skill or no skill is BS propaganda

my first 4 years in the AF was weapons control sys (also called fire control) and the AF loves lock on missiles

I just say I am not trying to skill you I am trying to kill you lol
if streaks where so bad then why would they spend so much time nerfing them

all my streak mechs also have lasers so I can laze you and streak you at the same time lol

sometimes I go tri-pwr and LRM you--Streak you and laze you all at the same time

Edited by Davegt27, 12 December 2017 - 01:38 PM.

[Khobai]

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Using the most easy way to achive most possible success isnt skill - it is oportunism!

correct

always using the best build is not skill.

skill is doing good with the build that you have. that is skill.

and if the build you have happens to be bad and you still do as good as people with better builds. you are more skilled.

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Skill floor is the minimum amount of skill required to be somewhat effective (both streaks and lasers have a low skill floor, gauss has a comparatively high skill floor). Skill ceiling is the maximum amount of player ability that continues to have a measurable effect on performance (streaks have a low skill ceiling)

I never said streaks didnt have a low skill ceiling.

I just said lasers have a much lower skill ceiling than streaks.

it is way easier to peek out from behind a rock and alphastrike an enemy mech at 400m-600m (even longer range for ERLL) for 50+ damage then retreat back behind a rock and repeat that over and over

compared to having close to have to close within 270m, stay exposed long enough to get a lock, and fire your streaks at the correct facing/angle so they hit torso instead of all going into an arm. And not get completely annihilated by the enemy team at that range. And you have to do that MULTIPLE times to equal the same damage as one laser vomit alpha since streak damage is so spread out. really the only practical use of streaks is light hunting in gamemodes like conquest. theyre much more difficult to use than lasers in the same capacity lasers are used; theyre not really good for midrange poking considering they cant even hit things at midrange.

you are nuts if you think lasers require more skill than streaks. lasers are the easiest weapon to use in the game. they give the best rewards for the least amount of exposure and risk. And hitscan makes them instant even at the absurd ranges that ERLLs have. You dont even have to lead targets or account for ballistic dropoff like with PPCs and autocannons. And streaks can be outright shutdown with multiple ECM or AMS. there is sadly no reflective armor in the game to shutdown lasers.

Edited by Khobai, 10 December 2017 - 01:08 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 10 December 2017 - 12:44 PM, said:

I never said streaks didnt have a low skill ceiling.

I just said lasers have a much lower skill ceiling than streaks.

Bruh, please.

Low skill ceiling implies that the effectiveness difference between a bad player using lasers and a good player using lasers is minimal to nonexistent. That's just pure bullocks.

A good player using beams can focus most or all of the laser into a single hitbox of their choice (especially if using long-burn weapons like CERLL or HLL), while a bad player using beams will "lightsaber" the damage across multiple hitboxes or even miss outright. There is a very noticeable difference between a good laser player and a bad one, and thus the skill ceiling has to be about "medium" at least.

Lasers are easy to start using, but they also have room for the player to improve. That IMO makes them pretty well designed. SSRMs on the other hand have a maximum ceiling almost as low as the minimum floor (practically no potential to improve), which is a bad design and why I've been constantly asking for MWO lock-on missiles to be heavily redesigned since 2014.

PS: In general I think you're mixing up the terms skill floor and skill ceiling. Skill floor is the minimum skill you need to be moderately effective with something (barrier to entry). Skill ceiling is the maximum possible potential you can reach.

Edited by FupDup, 10 December 2017 - 01:19 PM.

[Khobai]

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A good player using beams can focus most or all of the laser into a single hitbox of their choice

no lol. even the best players cant put all that damage into a single hitbox. its not possible when the target is moving or torso twisting and everyone is using mechs with good hitboxes that distribute damage.

anyone whos consistently putting all their laser damage into the same hitbox against a moving, torso twisting target its probably using some kindve snap to location hack. I would be very suspicious of that even from the best players.

I mean thats the whole reason legs are appealing targets. Because theyre easier to focus on than torso sections, if the mech is twisting around, and a lot of time legs dont get as big of quirks.

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There is a very noticeable difference between a good laser player and a bad one, and thus the skill ceiling has to be about "medium" at least.

theres a noticeable difference between a good streak player and a bad streak player too.

its less noticeable when streaks are used vs lights. But its certainly noticeable when streaks are used vs heavier mechs like assaults.

a bad streak player will just fire their streaks whenever theyre off cooldown and theyll just stand there getting hit while the streaks cooldown. hell a bad streak player might not even survive long enough to get within 270m lol. While a good streak player will setup the right angle and timing to fire the streaks, while taking steps to minimizing damage in between cooldowns. And theyre better able to close the distance gap without getting shot up. Theres also quite a few counters to streaks that streak users have to overcome.

IMO lasers are way more easy mode than streaks. Im not saying the skill ceiling shouldnt be raised on streaks. But it definitely needs to be raised on lasers.

Edited by Khobai, 10 December 2017 - 01:36 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 10 December 2017 - 01:24 PM, said:

no lol. even the best players cant put all that damage into a single hitbox. its not possible when the target is moving or torso twisting and everyone is using mechs with good hitboxes that distribute damage.

Legs are a lot harder to shield...

[Khobai]

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Legs are a lot harder to shield...

yes thats exactly what I said

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 10 December 2017 - 01:37 PM, said:

yes thats exactly what I said

I said it before you said it though.

[MischiefSC]

Skill is independent of build.

Skill is a serious of things from good choices in the mech bay to good coordination to good aim to good twisting. A bad build or low skill ceiling means you can't apply as many skills or as much range of skill to it.

Aim, being a skill, is why lasers have a much higher skill ceiling than streaks - they have more skills and more granular skill application than streaks.

Why don't you go dominate with lasers then since it's such low skill.

You can't, because the high skill ceiling with lasers means a better player will crush you. You vs, say, Proton with both of you in Streak Orions would be way, way closer than you vs Proton with both of you in laservomit ACH or EBJs or MAD IICs, because the lasers have a wider set of skills and a higher skill cap.

[Khobai]

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Why don't you go dominate with lasers then since it's such low skill.

because its a team game lol.

even if I dominate with lasers theres always 11 other people on team that will let me down

[MischiefSC]

Khobai, on 10 December 2017 - 01:49 PM, said:

because its a team game lol.

even if I dominate with lasers theres always 11 other people on team that will let me down

Ah. So it's not you, it's everyone else.

Well, I look forward to your laser powered domination of Solaris. Since all those scrubs who just rocked out MWOWC and participated in the tournament's to get there and, well, all the people who have consistently proven their ability to win clearly don't understand what skill is or how the game works like you do I'm sure we will see you rocket to the top of the Solaris leaderboard.

The other option is that in 1 v 1 without a team to pug armor for you and keep your bad builds and poor choices alive you're going to have an even worse w/l.

I guess we'll see when it comes out.

[Khobai]

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I guess we'll see when it comes out.

well i hope laser vomit is nerfed before then

otherwise 1v1 is going to be even worse than I projected

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 10 December 2017 - 02:21 PM, said:

well i hope laser vomit is nerfed before then

otherwise 1v1 is going to be even worse than I projected

1v1 is gonna be mostly splat builds.