64 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Jonathan8883, on 11 December 2017 - 09:00 PM, said:

I use them on my Halloween Stormcrow and like them. I pair with TAG and either a TC or BAP (forget which) to improve lock-on time.

Neither of those items boost lock on time

They both boost Paperdoll Info time


Artemis, TAG and NARC are the only items which boost lock time (and unknown if Artemis does for ATMs, as they do Streaks)

[Khobai]

pretty sure artemis only speeds up lockon time for ATMs if you actually take artemis on the mech.

but ATMs get the other benefits of artemis built-in without having to pay tonnage for it.

[Savage Wolf]

SNV-A with LRM40, ATM24 and 4 HML.

At long range or if they hide behind cover, use LRMs.
If you have LoS and they are within the sweet spot of ATMs, use them.
If they go below minimum range, use Heavy lasers.

Deadly at all ranges, the ultimate swiss army mech.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

I use them on my Halloween Stormcrow and like them. I pair with TAG and either a TC or BAP (forget which) to improve lock-on time.

You're wasting tonnage then. Neither targeting computers or active probes improve lock-on time.

TC's improve the time it takes to get a paperdoll, not locks. Active probes simply boost sensor range.

[Grus]

Catalina Steiner, on 11 December 2017 - 03:16 PM, said:

I am using ATM's... in my MCII-2 for example.




As for your thoughts, these are my additions:

• I guess I'm using them like LRM's, nearly the same way. This works if you are playing good with LRM's. Sure I prefer the more brawling type of fighting but I use them on extreme long range too. It depends on the map.
  
• It works great with assaults (MCII) and lights (Cougar). I played the Leaderboards with ATM-Hero Cougar.
  
• I use ATM not only with backup lasers (HML for example) but also with LPL and LL as equivalent weapon system. My MCII-2 is using LL and ATM9 for example.
  
• I prefer 2xATM12 or 4xATM9. But I would agree that 3xATM9 is also a good choice.
  
• I use BAP for LRM mechs and ATM mechs. It's needed for both.

Hope this helps. I love ATM mechs. They are very dangerous and ATM's are really a serious weaponry after LRM's were nerfed to insignifiance.

sigh*

Ok atms/lrm have a place and can be a very good support weapon... but as you can see they can and will give you high damage number... but it's not effective damage.. if that was 1600 damage of PPFLD your kills would be higher and your assists would be as well. With that a Mich bigger payout and likely a win.

/rant

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

They're pretty great as long as you bring high tube counts. Doing something like a couple ATM3s you might as well not bring them at all, as they'll just be eaten by a single AMS, but if you are packing dual ATM12s, or better yet quad ATM12s, you'll either cripple or delete your target if you are in the x3 zone. Also, the 120m deadzone proves to be an advantage in that you bait people to charge at you to get under your min range, but they just don't have enough time to do that without eating a volley, quad ATM12 is 144 damage in the x3 zone. Some people might even stop closing once they've gotten under 180m if they don't know the mechanics well.

With mechs such as the Mad Dog, you have the high mounted cockpit and high quirks for if you use only 2 launchers on the MDD-Prime, so you can bring in dual ATM12s and just peek over a hill just a little bit and lock on to some enemy and hit them for potentially 72 damage.

Overall they're pretty great when they aren't countered, but heavy AMS, ECM, and good positioning can make them very weak. In that way they're somewhat feast or famine, but in equal enough parts as to sit at an average level of performance. Pinpoint laser builds seem to be a bit easier to be very effective with as long as you have the aim.

[Quandoo]

I tried them in a Supernova 4x12ATM + 4med pulse laser ... first game 1475dmg.
They are pretty overpowered if your team knows how to push.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

if that was 1600 damage of PPFLD your kills would be higher and your assists would be as well. With that a Mich bigger payout and likely a win.

If it was PPFLD, you wouldn't deal 1600 damage anyway. Yeah, ATMs are like LRMs in that they kill targets with blunt force, but it's a much heavier hammer. Look at kills. KMDDs. If the result is "dead in 3 salvos" either way, does it matter if the target took 800 damage in smaller but more focused hits from PPFLD or 1600 from an ATM barrage?

Take this. Ignore the damage number.



Three solo kills, 5 KMDD. Is that not doing the job?

[Grus]

Brain Cancer, on 12 December 2017 - 03:02 PM, said:

If it was PPFLD, you wouldn't deal 1600 damage anyway. Yeah, ATMs are like LRMs in that they kill targets with blunt force, but it's a much heavier hammer. Look at kills. KMDDs. If the result is "dead in 3 salvos" either way, does it matter if the target took 800 damage in smaller but more focused hits from PPFLD or 1600 from an ATM barrage?

Take this. Ignore the damage number.



Three solo kills, 5 KMDD. Is that not doing the job?

I'm not saying they don't have a use or can't put up large damage numbers. What I'm saying is with your photo you would have had 8 kills instead of 5 kmdd. And realistically you averaged 121.444 damage per target if you count all 9. That's What, a 60.5 alpha? So 2 shots per target to kill through the CT? Well if that's the case you picked off all the meds and lights because the numbers don't add up. Ttk in a atm/lrm boat is atrocious. You would have better performance if you used direct fire.

[Brain Cancer]

Grus, on 12 December 2017 - 04:33 PM, said:

I'm not saying they don't have a use or can't put up large damage numbers. What I'm saying is with your photo you would have had 8 kills instead of 5 kmdd. And realistically you averaged 121.444 damage per target if you count all 9. That's What, a 60.5 alpha? So 2 shots per target to kill through the CT? Well if that's the case you picked off all the meds and lights because the numbers don't add up. Ttk in a atm/lrm boat is atrocious. You would have better performance if you used direct fire.

Killed a Phoenix Hawk, Mad Dog, and Jagermech. Turned the enemy Annhilator into a no guns stick and ignored him in favor of shooting up something else, likewise got half of a Mad-IIC off and most of the rest for KMDD #5. The Kodiak I just tore an arm off because it was a side angle shot and he was ducking behind cover. A few glancing hits on two enemy Bushwhackers and the one Arctic Cheetah with laser fire for the remaining assists.

Most of the damage went into the first five, with the last four mostly just getting a few points of armor burned off to keep their heads down and their legs moving elsewhere. ATM 36 alphas (or rather, 18-18 to keep heat down, it's a hot map) are 72 damage at medium range (to 600m), 108 at short (300m). And again, I don't care about the quad digit damage. I care about dead robots, broken robots, and if I almost hammer a target to pulp and someone else kills it, oh well. I chew off huge bites of armor with each hit, and that tends to stagger people. Even if I get one solid hit, they're now in range of a single concentrated alpha (or another dose of mine) from losing parts or dropping dead.

I do have a nice record of one-shotting lights dumb enough to give me their backs orbiting a team-mate, though.

[Grus]

Brain Cancer, on 12 December 2017 - 08:50 PM, said:

Killed a Phoenix Hawk, Mad Dog, and Jagermech. Turned the enemy Annhilator into a no guns stick and ignored him in favor of shooting up something else, likewise got half of a Mad-IIC off and most of the rest for KMDD #5. The Kodiak I just tore an arm off because it was a side angle shot and he was ducking behind cover. A few glancing hits on two enemy Bushwhackers and the one Arctic Cheetah with laser fire for the remaining assists.

Most of the damage went into the first five, with the last four mostly just getting a few points of armor burned off to keep their heads down and their legs moving elsewhere. ATM 36 alphas (or rather, 18-18 to keep heat down, it's a hot map) are 72 damage at medium range (to 600m), 108 at short (300m). And again, I don't care about the quad digit damage. I care about dead robots, broken robots, and if I almost hammer a target to pulp and someone else kills it, oh well. I chew off huge bites of armor with each hit, and that tends to stagger people. Even if I get one solid hit, they're now in range of a single concentrated alpha (or another dose of mine) from losing parts or dropping dead.

I do have a nice record of one-shotting lights dumb enough to give me their backs orbiting a team-mate, though.

again I'm not saying they can't be used to manipulate the flow of battle. Or that the can't put out large damage numbers. If that assault mech could have been aggressive and pushed on you I'm betting he would have won that engagement. PPFLD is the fastest ttk in game right now. If you're aganced a bunch on timid players that don't like the sky falling in sure you'll have a profitable game.but if you get a motivated light mech to get behind you and keep you occupied guess what.. all that ammo won't save you.

[Khobai]

The problem is the current incarnation of ATMs is not in the spirit of the weapon

the purpose of ATMs is to be a missile that can engage at all ranges

Its not supposed to be a niche 120-270 weapon that completely pulverizes targets inside that range. but is largely useless outside that range.



ATMs need their damage flattened out so theyre better at other ranges. IMO this is how ATM damage should look:

0-120m = 1.0-1.5 damage
120m-270m = 2.5 damage
270m-540m = 2 damage
540m-810m = 1.5 damage

That makes them actually useful under 120m and more useful over 500m. And it makes them less WTF broken at 120m-270m


ATMs also need 50% more missile health so AMS doesnt wreck them anymore

Edited by Khobai, 13 December 2017 - 01:04 PM.

[Brain Cancer]

The assaults weren't pushing on me because I got high and stayed there, having flanked them relative to the rest of the team once we'd scattered or killed the lighter robots. Likewise, you get a dedicated light on any assault without team support? They're generally screwed. Lights massacre solo assaults all the time. On the other hand, if there's other people around, I generally make sure the light regrets coming into a deathball because unlike lasers, ATMs don't miss and boy, you were foolish enough to get in my sweet spot.

I'm not stupid. No assault on their own is anything but target practice. PPFLD is the fastest TTK, but you can't flick lasers over the top of a hill and slam someone for massive damage. Stick with the team, and just splat anything that gets in your way while trying to be just behind the absolute front to avoid deadzoning. It's not about bigdamagenumber. It's about bludgeoning something hard enough to either denude it of frontal armor or kill it outright. 1000+ damage is just a side effect of those 70-100 point hits, assuming you're not in a worst case situation of firing past 600m.

Missiles will never be precise, but they can and will be effective if they can hit hard enough to make up for it. ATMs and SRMs manage that.

[Grus]

Agreed now if they put in a mechanic where if you want to switch range's and have the ammo equipped there's a cool down "reload" timer.

Would be something nice.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

the purpose of ATMs is to be a missile that can engage at all ranges

Too bad PGI can't ammo switch then, right? Because in TT, an ATM launcher was generally loaded to fill whatever bill you needed.

3-damage ammo for brawlmode, standard for pretty much everything else, ER if you really felt you had to hit something at extreme ranges.

[Khobai]

Quote

Too bad PGI can't ammo switch then, right? Because in TT, an ATM launcher was generally loaded to fill whatever bill you needed.

yes we dont have ammo switching.

So that means one ammo type needs to combine everything the three ammo types could do, but do it in a way thats balanced.

the easiest way to do that is to change the damage profile to what I suggested above, so ATMs are somewhat capable at all ranges

Edited by Khobai, 13 December 2017 - 01:06 PM.

[Brain Cancer]

The second ATM's drop below 2 damage, they're inferior to LRMs.

And at a maximum of 2.5, they lose considerable stopping power. My alphas would drop from 108 to 90 at "sweet spot" range, and further still at longer ranges.

What we really could use is a smart loader for ATMs. You pick what tonnage of missiles you use, the ATM automatically draws off the best available type for the shot. Then you can use the proper ammo stats and not need a deadzone and hybrid munitions.

[Khobai]

Quote

And at a maximum of 2.5, they lose considerable stopping power. My alphas would drop from 108 to 90 at "sweet spot" range, and further still at longer ranges.

yes theyd go from 3->2.5 damage at 120m-270m

but theyd also do 1.0-1.5 damage under 120m (currently its a 0 damage deadzone)
and theyd get 50% more health per missile
their long range damage would be buffed from 1 to 1.5 as well, not a huge buff, but still better than it was before.

its a fair tradeoff IMO

And its more in the spirit of the weapon. ATMs are not supposed to do less damage than LRMs under 120m like they do now. Thats stupid.

Again ATMs are not supposed to be a 120m-270m niche weapon. Theyre supposed to be capable at all ranges. That includes under 120m. And it includes over 270m.

Edited by Khobai, 13 December 2017 - 01:18 PM.

[Brain Cancer]

How about just getting rid of the deadzone entirely and having damage step downs like ATMs do otherwise?

120->70m is 3->2. 70-20m is 2->1, and it stays that way at pointblank.

Extra ATM health would be nice too.

[Khobai]

Quote

How about just getting rid of the deadzone entirely and having damage step downs like ATMs do otherwise?

120->70m is 3->2. 70-20m is 2->1, and it stays that way at pointblank.

Extra ATM health would be nice too.

because that would be incredibly overpowered. ATMs already do devastating broken amounts of damage at 120m-270m.

you basically want ATMs buffed without giving up anything in return.


again its about the spirit of the weapon. ATMs are not meant to only be used at 120m-270m. As long as it does 3 damage at that range, theres no reason to use it at any other range. So if you want ATMs to get used at other ranges you have to lower the max damage from 3->2.5 and increase the damage it does at other ranges. That decentivizes using it at 120-270 and incentivizes using it at other ranges.

And giving it +50% health per missile would make it more resistant to AMS, and that health buff would probably be okay if the max damage was lowered from 3->2.5. But it would be crazy to buff their health if they stayed at 3 damage, because then they would do even more broken damage than they currently do.

Edited by Khobai, 13 December 2017 - 01:32 PM.