154 replies to this topic

[UnofficialOperator]

Edit: thread was merged with a different thread hence the confusing title and OP does not match.

OP:
Imagine in traditional FPS games, where there are 1 shot 1 kill sniper duels. Being out of position or being slow to react equals to death. Very unforgiving. Requires thinking and reacting fast.

Low/Zero TTK. High skill level required.

On the other end, we have killing each other softly with feather dusters in a tickle war. Crumpets and tea in the middle. Being out of position is OK. Try again.

High TTK. Low skill level required.

You think in chess competitions they allow you to move back your piece when you get out of position?

Hence High TTK advocates = newbie panderers

My logic is sound

GG NO RE

Edited by UnofficialOperator, 23 December 2017 - 03:25 AM.

[Kotzi]

Or, we are comparing "humans" to giant machines. Go figure.

[Muujig612]

UnofficialOperator, you are not looking at things from multiple angles. I can argue that Low TTK panders to newbies, since if TTK is low enough you can one shot skilled players. I have killed higher skilled players with a single bullet plenty of times in Counter-Strike, and in Insurgency.

High TTK on the other hand, will allow good skilled players to survive far better than newbies since they can spread damage well, which allows them to survive incoming fire ten times longer than that of newbies, and clean house with 10 kills each match.

Which means Low TTK advocates are the actual newbie panderers.

Edited by Muujig612, 04 December 2017 - 03:01 AM.

[Davegt27]

UnofficialOperator, on 04 December 2017 - 02:37 AM, said:

Imagine in traditional FPS games, where there are 1 shot 1 kill sniper duels. Being out of position or being slow to react equals to death. Very unforgiving. Requires thinking and reacting fast.

Low/Zero TTK. High skill level required.

On the other end, we have killing each other softly with feather dusters in a tickle war. Crumpets and tea in the middle. Being out of position is OK. Try again.

High TTK. Low skill level required.

You think in chess competitions they allow you to move back your piece when you get out of position?

Hence High TTK advocates = newbie panderers

My logic is sound

GG NO RE

WOW hmmm never heard anyone argue for low time to kill

hear is an idea if your so good take all your weapons off but one laser

after some matches come and report back

[UnofficialOperator]

Muujig612, on 04 December 2017 - 02:47 AM, said:

since if TTK is low enough you can one shot skilled players. I have killed higher skilled players with a single bullet plenty of times in Counter-Strike, and in Insurgency.

So you are bringing in LUCK as a factor? A skilled player will win 8 out of 10 times vs a newbie as it should while the newbie gets lucky every now and then.

Davegt27, on 04 December 2017 - 02:54 AM, said:

WOW hmmm never heard anyone argue for low time to kill

hear is an idea if your so good take all your weapons off but one laser

after some matches come and report back

What does taking off all weapons have to do with anything?

You embarrass yourself Davegt27... I mean that 20k thread and now this reply?

I weep.

[Muujig612]

UnofficialOperator, on 04 December 2017 - 03:05 AM, said:

So you are bringing in LUCK as a factor? A skilled player will win 8 out of 10 times vs a newbie as it should while the newbie gets lucky every now and then.

Of course I am, since it is a factor. With high TTK, the skilled player will win 10 out of 10 times against a newbie, which exposes your mistaken assumptions.

Edited by Muujig612, 04 December 2017 - 03:11 AM.

[Bud Crue]

If your thesis is really that high ttk is a crutch for bads, and presumably you are implying that such is the state of MWO, then would you really want this game to be otherwise?

I mean why have the variety of mechs and weapons and such if all mechs could one shot all other mechs regardless of load out, etc.?

So yeah, I'll buy that high ttk keeps bads (like me) alive a little longer so that the skilled players have something to use all those weapons and and armor and variety of stompy robot configurations on and give me chance at using mine for a bit longer before I die. But are you proposing that you would prefer a game...this game...where a good player could stroll into a match, fire 12 times at the bads, and be done? That doesn't sound like a very fun game for anyone nor does it sound like any mechwarior game I've ever heard of. Meh. You want a low ttk game to test your skill, I guess you will need to go play a different game, as MWO is not that game. Can't help you beyond that.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Bud Crue, on 04 December 2017 - 03:15 AM, said:

But are you proposing that you would prefer a game...this game...where a good player could stroll into a match, fire 12 times at the bads, and be done?

That's kinda what the meta strives for, but since armor is doubled we have to settle with two shotting people instead, Deathstrike as a good example of it. Its kinda like what MW4 multiplayer was with bringing as many gauss and PPCs you could handle without self destructing to fire at the enemy to two shot them.

That's pretty much mechwarrior games in multiplayer in a nutshell, two shot the enemy instead of one shot them like in other FPS games.

[UnofficialOperator]

Muujig612, on 04 December 2017 - 03:10 AM, said:

Of course I am, since it is a factor. With high TTK, the skilled player will win 10 out of 10 times against a newbie, which exposes your mistaken assumptions.

So its ok to claim luck in your in a low ttk scenario but in a high ttk scenario, no luck applies and the skilled player will win 10 out of 10 times?

Try again?

Anyway you have no stats at all. Do you even game bruh?

[Davegt27]

UnofficialOperator, on 04 December 2017 - 03:05 AM, said:

So you are bringing in LUCK as a factor? A skilled player will win 8 out of 10 times vs a newbie as it should while the newbie gets lucky every now and then.



What does taking off all weapons have to do with anything?

You embarrass yourself Davegt27... I mean that 20k thread and now this reply?

I weep.

taking all your weapons off makes it so you function as a new player
then we have you play in that format so you can see having a hi TTK is not
rally pandering to new players

sort of like walking a mile in someone else's shows

sorry I have to explain every little thing

I can go into more reasoning why having a higher TTK would be a good thing

[UnofficialOperator]

Bud Crue, on 04 December 2017 - 03:15 AM, said:

If your thesis is really that high ttk is a crutch for bads, and presumably you are implying that such is the state of MWO, then would you really want this game to be otherwise?

I mean why have the variety of mechs and weapons and such if all mechs could one shot all other mechs regardless of load out, etc.?

So yeah, I'll buy that high ttk keeps bads (like me) alive a little longer so that the skilled players have something to use all those weapons and and armor and variety of stompy robot configurations on and give me chance at using mine for a bit longer before I die. But are you proposing that you would prefer a game...this game...where a good player could stroll into a match, fire 12 times at the bads, and be done? That doesn't sound like a very fun game for anyone nor does it sound like any mechwarior game I've ever heard of. Meh. You want a low ttk game to test your skill, I guess you will need to go play a different game, as MWO is not that game. Can't help you beyond that.

No, I'm just showing the extremes. Of course ideally it should be somewhere in the middle. Anyway TTK historically has become higher yes? So has it helped Davegt27 with his 20k games or yourself in improving your WLR and KDRs?

Davegt27, on 04 December 2017 - 03:26 AM, said:

taking all your weapons off makes it so you function as a new player
then we have you play in that format so you can see having a hi TTK is not
rally pandering to new players

sort of like walking a mile in someone else's shows

sorry I have to explain every little thing

I can go into more reasoning why having a higher TTK would be a good thing

How is having 1 weapon = new player? Does not compute.

[Bud Crue]

UnofficialOperator, on 04 December 2017 - 03:26 AM, said:

No, I'm just showing the extremes. Of course ideally it should be somewhere in the middle. Anyway TTK historically has become higher yes? So has it helped Davegt27 with his 20k games or yourself in improving your WLR and KDRs?

Yes.(though I am not sure about the history part). This game has a ton of variety of mechs, builds and options. High TTK allows a skilled player to play with a greater variety of those options because they have the skill to compensate for what is bad. (Example Proton in a crap build/mech is still going to mop the floor with someone like me in a Deathstrike or anything else). But the game provides options to someone like me (e.g. that Deathstrike et al.) which gives me a greater chance of participating successfully and maybe even helping my team win despite my lack of skill. If we had zero ttk, there would be no point to my playing at all, and no point to any of that variety of mechs, builds, etc. Pandering or not, high ttk is a good thing for this game.

Edited by Bud Crue, 04 December 2017 - 03:35 AM.

[Davegt27]

Quote

How is having 1 weapon = new player? Does not compute.

new players function as if they only have one weapon they have enough trouble getting there feet and torso
to work together

sorry if you don't see my point
I am not against your point I just want you to give what I suggest a try and see if it changes your mind

to get down to the point of the matter you will have to convince PGI that your ideas are right
they are the ones that implemented ghost heat
and all the other game mechanics to try to balance (limit) players

[sycocys]

A higher ttk makes the management of the resources - weapons, ammo, heat, terrain, armor, opponent control, team control - a much more technical affair.

It actually makes it so people with high skill will tend to eliminate the "luck" factor nearly entirely (outside of lucky cockpit shots).

[Daggett]

UnofficialOperator, on 04 December 2017 - 02:37 AM, said:

High TTK. Low skill level required.

Hence High TTK advocates = newbie panderers

You seem to have a misconception of 'skill'. Skill is not a single value, each player has different skills and each game requires a specific skill subset.

So in your example low TTK leads to a very high reaction-skill requirement. But all other skills like positioning, aiming, teamwork ect. are not that much affected.

If you are out of position in a high TTK game like MWO you are often dead or crippled too, it just takes a bit longer. You will at least get punished, immediate death is not the only possible punishment, a red CT is bad too.

In fact high TTK requires a whole new set of skills like torso-twisting, armor sharing with the team and assessing the weak-spots of an enemy (its not always the head as it is in regular low-ttk shooters) as well as protecting your own.

So in conclusion you need different skills in a high-ttk game, but not necessarily less overall skill. Reaction and aiming are not the only skills which can be required by a game.

Edited by Daggett, 04 December 2017 - 03:54 AM.

[Bud Crue]

UnofficialOperator, on 04 December 2017 - 03:28 AM, said:

No, I'm just showing the extremes. Of course ideally it should be somewhere in the middle. Anyway TTK historically has become higher yes? So has it helped Davegt27 with his 20k games or yourself in improving your WLR and KDRs?

Another thing to consider is also the diversity of population. In re your comment above...I couldn't care less about my stats. I play about an hour a day with fiends after work, to get my nostalgia fix and play with stompy robots -all of them good and bad. PGI wants if not needs my business and players like me as much as it wants/needs stat hounds and pro gamer types. We all spend so they need to pander to all of us. Making the game at least functional ttk-wise for a diverse population is in their own interest. If they push the game in its entirety to the supposed high skill only environment of a competitive e-sport, then they would kill their game as they clearly lack the population of that pure skill set...but that is another debate.

[LORD ORION]

High TTK makes focus fire more important.
It is a design decision for bads, as it gives them the illusion they are fighting in combat longer, but in reality they are losing by an even greater margin.

A mech is in no danger until armor is gone... if one mech can blow out your armor in one alpha, you need to treat even a bad potato with respect, instead of the current contempt of moving, torso twisting and jetting his attack across your entire mech.... why? Because when you can get a torso opened by 1 bad mech, the next bad mech can stop you from leaving the match with a good performance by blowing off a torso or killing you..

This doesn't happen when only mechs that focus fire can hurt you in the 2nd volley.

[FupDup]

The Halo series usually has a much longer TTK than other FPS games, yet it also has some of the most utterly savage skill-based beatdowns in the industry.

High TKK serves to magnify the skill difference, really, because it means that the crappy player is going to have a much harder time securing kills when it takes more than half a second to take someone out. Getting lucky sneaky kills is far less likely here.

Outside of the skill/TTK/whatever debate though the most important thing by far is differentiation. The way games survive on the market is by appealing to a certain demographic better than other games of the same type do. Mechwarrior has targeted people with different preferences than people who play stuff like Quake. And that's fine, because not all games should try to be the same (even games within a single genre).

If Mechwarrior tries to out-Quake Quake, it's gonna lose. We saw this with Hawken turning into a watered-down version of Unreal Tournament, failing to appeal to any demographic and thus dying multiple times (it's been revived by other studios just to die again).

[UnofficialOperator]

Bud Crue, on 04 December 2017 - 03:49 AM, said:

Another thing to consider is also the diversity of population. In re your comment above...I couldn't care less about my stats. I play about an hour a day with fiends after work, to get my nostalgia fix and play with stompy robots -all of them good and bad. PGI wants if not needs my business and players like me as much as it wants/needs stat hounds and pro gamer types. We all spend so they need to pander to all of us. Making the game at least functional ttk-wise for a diverse population is in their own interest. If they push the game in its entirety to the supposed high skill only environment of a competitive e-sport, then they would kill their game as they clearly lack the population of that pure skill set...but that is another debate.

But if you look at your numbers, and according to some arguments here, higher TTK did you no favors, just an illusion of doing more. Dave's stats are on a steady downward trend. So how can he advocate for higher TTK? Both of you should advocate for lower TTK instead as it might improve your chances at winning.

[Kaeb Odellas]

UnofficialOperator, on 04 December 2017 - 02:37 AM, said:

Imagine in traditional FPS games, where there are 1 shot 1 kill sniper duels. Being out of position or being slow to react equals to death. Very unforgiving. Requires thinking and reacting fast.

Low/Zero TTK. High skill level required.

On the other end, we have killing each other softly with feather dusters in a tickle war. Crumpets and tea in the middle. Being out of position is OK. Try again.

High TTK. Low skill level required.

You think in chess competitions they allow you to move back your piece when you get out of position?

Hence High TTK advocates = newbie panderers

My logic is sound

GG NO RE

I disagree with your logic.

With very low TTK, a lower-skilled player can occasionally get the drop on a more skilled opponent and win, especially when all it takes is one shot. In a 1v1 round-based duel scenario, the weaker player actually has a chance to win some rounds.

With higher TTK, skill is much more important. The more skilled player can more effectively and consistency deal damage to a lesser player. Even if the weaker player gets the first shot, the better player gets the chance to shoot back, and with a higher effective damage output, has a far greater chance to succeed. In a 1v1, the weaker player loses every round.