219 replies to this topic

[Kroete]

MischiefSC, on 22 December 2017 - 08:20 PM, said:

I don't play comp play. I've never really played comp play. That has nothing to do with the conversation. Not sure why you keep bringing comp play into it ....

You were talking about compplay and that lrms are not used in compplay,
why do you talk about compplay and what weapons are used if you dont play compplay and we talk about quickplay?
The same counts for cw too, there is a cw-forum for that.

So lets talk about quickplay or go to the comp/cw forum part.
In qp lrms are ok, if you work they are as good as any other weapon,
sure they are not as easy to use as hitscan lasers or point&click ppc/ballistics,
but not easy to use is something different then bad.

If you claim that weapons are better then lrms,
then your stats should be better then a lrms user if you use them and even better agaist a drugged lrm-user.
Means you are realy bad or lrms are not as bad as you claim in quickplay.

Edited by Kroete, 23 December 2017 - 03:34 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Kroete, on 23 December 2017 - 03:29 AM, said:

You were talking about compplay and that lrms are not used in compplay,
why do you talk about compplay and what weapons are used if you dont play compplay and we talk about quickplay?
The same counts for cw too, there is a cw-forum for that.

So lets talk about quickplay or go to the comp/cw forum part.
In qp lrms are ok, if you work they are as good as any other weapon,
sure they are not as easy to use as hitscan lasers or point&click ppc/ballistics,
but not easy to use is something different then bad.

If you claim that weapons are better then lrms,
then your stats should be better then a lrms user if you use them and even better agaist a drugged lrm-user.
Means you are realy bad or lrms are not as bad as you claim in quickplay.

Group queue, QP, comp queue, FW. The rules for how to build and play mechs are the same. What works is what works. Solaris, being 1 v 1, will be the first mode that has any real difference in mech design. All that changes in our current mode is average player skill in some situations. Mech pe4firmance and viability doesn't.

I'm an average player. Never said otherwise. Your stats are still not quite there and you've got some of the best stats of any LRM user on the forums. LRMs are not good in QP - bad players are common in QP. There's a big difference.

[ice trey]

I have moved away from using assaults as LRM boats, instead using them with proper backup systems.

I'm even reluctant to use heavies as LRM boats.

I find that Mediums are better suited. You can still fit a fair number of missile tubes, without costing your team an important damage sponge.

[MischiefSC]

I have some respect for a good horse archer medium. Fast moving 30-45 tubes IS Griffin or the like. They are nasty.

[ANOM O MECH]

jss78, on 23 December 2017 - 02:08 AM, said:

...or give us the Longbow, so we can do it in style.

That looks like a great candidate for MRM's

[YueFei]

MischiefSC, on 23 December 2017 - 08:40 AM, said:

I have some respect for a good horse archer medium. Fast moving 30-45 tubes IS Griffin or the like. They are nasty.

Watching JMan5 play his LRM Hunchback is enlightening. I forget where that video is of his HBK-4J gameplay.

He had the speed to get a flanking position. Head-TAG to cut through ECM and acquire his own locks, and the "footwork" to `re-tap` targets with TAG and hold his locks. His peeking is done quickly enough in-and-out that he can fade-away against laser fire like this. He just peeks for fractions of a second, ducks back, lets fly, then re-peek for another few fractions of a second to maintain the lock.

That was also when it had fantastic cooldown quirks (don't remember if it was for all LRM launchers, or just the LRM10's), so it was respectable DPS.

[MischiefSC]

YueFei, on 23 December 2017 - 05:37 PM, said:

Watching JMan5 play his LRM Hunchback is enlightening. I forget where that video is of his HBK-4J gameplay.

He had the speed to get a flanking position. Head-TAG to cut through ECM and acquire his own locks, and the "footwork" to `re-tap` targets with TAG and hold his locks. His peeking is done quickly enough in-and-out that he can fade-away against laser fire like this. He just peeks for fractions of a second, ducks back, lets fly, then re-peek for another few fractions of a second to maintain the lock.

That was also when it had fantastic cooldown quirks (don't remember if it was for all LRM launchers, or just the LRM10's), so it was respectable DPS.

I want to be clear here -

If everyone Lurmed like Jman these threads wouldn't happen. LRMs would be considered sub-standard like lbx5 are sub standard but these threads wouldn't happen.

However everyone who LRMs like Jman could sit at the same table and share like two large pizza and have some to take home.

[YueFei]

MischiefSC, on 23 December 2017 - 05:58 PM, said:

I want to be clear here -

If everyone Lurmed like Jman these threads wouldn't happen. LRMs would be considered sub-standard like lbx5 are sub standard but these threads wouldn't happen.

However everyone who LRMs like Jman could sit at the same table and share like two large pizza and have some to take home.

LOL, I don't know if it's quite that few players, but point taken.

On the other hand, if I try to put myself into the shoes of players using LRMs, I can sorta understand the feeling.... I'm a potato who plays the HBK-4SP, with Medium Lasers and SRMs, and if someone were to tell me that I was gimping my team with my mech and loadout choice, I might just take it personally and get defensive about it.

Good thing I'm pretty chill about this game and I don't claim that my mech and loadout choice is awesome-sauce. It's just the style I like playing the most and it gives me enough enjoyment out of the game. I probably am gimping my team, but if anyone were to criticize me on it, I'd probably just respond with "yeah, you're right..... so what? This is fun for me." It's my game time, not theirs. But I'm not going to argue with them about the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of my mech+loadout, and I'm not going to try to convince anyone else that what I use is the best.

To be honest, there's a lot of stuff you can bring in QP that's somewhat effective enough for enjoyment, and sometimes people bring stuff just for the LULz. But I also understand that if more players would just acknowledge that their mech/loadout choice is not optimal, instead of arguing it to death and choosing this as their hill to die on, well you wouldn't have to debate the hell out of it with them.

As you said, though, you debate them and put info out there for the sake of other players, especially newer players, who might be reading this threads, so they don't get mis-informed.

Maybe Jman5 could do a training camp for LRMing?

[MischiefSC]

No issue with people taking what they enjoy. It's when people say their bad builds are good that it becomes an issue. My favorite QP builds are not meta, but they're fun.

[OmniFail]

MischiefSC, on 23 December 2017 - 05:58 PM, said:

I want to be clear here -

If everyone Lurmed like Jman these threads wouldn't happen. LRMs would be considered sub-standard like lbx5 are sub standard but these threads wouldn't happen.

However everyone who LRMs like Jman could sit at the same table and share like two large pizza and have some to take home.

For clarification. You hate the player not the game?

[Brain Cancer]

MischiefSC, on 23 December 2017 - 05:58 PM, said:

I want to be clear here -

If everyone Lurmed like Jman these threads wouldn't happen. LRMs would be considered sub-standard like lbx5 are sub standard but these threads wouldn't happen.

However everyone who LRMs like Jman could sit at the same table and share like two large pizza and have some to take home.

That tells you how much skill it takes to push LRMs to that level. Surely, a weapon that takes godlike skill to be merely second-rate for under .5% of the playerbase must be overpowered.

[MischiefSC]

Brain Cancer, on 23 December 2017 - 07:21 PM, said:

That tells you how much skill it takes to push LRMs to that level. Surely, a weapon that takes godlike skill to be merely second-rate for under .5% of the playerbase must be overpowered.

You mean it takes that much skill to push any weapon to a high level. If LRMs didn't have such a low ceiling then top performers would use them in comp as much as anything else. The problem is that because their skill ceiling is so low even the best players can't use them effectively against skilled opponents.

[MauttyKoray]

I feel like this post is about my Rotary LRM Atlas that fires non-stop during the entire match without running out of ammo...

Yes I have backup weapons, lol.

Firing volley rotates in a 10>5>5>5>5>5>5 pattern

Its a one man LRM party.

[Brain Cancer]

MischiefSC, on 23 December 2017 - 08:10 PM, said:

You mean it takes that much skill to push any weapon to a high level. If LRMs didn't have such a low ceiling then top performers would use them in comp as much as anything else. The problem is that because their skill ceiling is so low even the best players can't use them effectively against skilled opponents.

The point is that "LRMs at a high level" hit the ceiling well before any other weapon in the game. You just stated the problem- no matter how well they're used, they don't reward skill with effective damage vs. skilled opponents.

If LRM + skill can't even get close to, say laser + skill (or AC, PPC, Gauss, etc), then the shortcoming is the weapon, and the weapon needs improvement. Moreover, it takes less skill to get to a point of "I'm as good as the LRM guy", AND there's a large gap between that and top levels of skill? That's the better weapon making the difference. A lot of difference.

LRMs are understatted and require improvement to even get close to direct-fire weaponry. You're even describing the skills needed to use them well (and it's not as easy as it looks), so it's not like it's a "no-skill" weapon. You've got to position like mad, dance with cover, and so on just to squeeze every iota of performance out of a weapon that takes enormous levels of exposure to hit targets (yours or your team's), and you have to hammer on those targets far more often than precision burns would require. And you're still barely second-best when you're the "best".

I'd still say the first thing to change should be the missile warning. At least then, you're able to get shots in without setting off a blaring alarm alerting your opponent to dip behind a rock.

[Khobai]

Quote

You mean it takes that much skill to push any weapon to a high level. If LRMs didn't have such a low ceiling then top performers would use them in comp as much as anything else. The problem is that because their skill ceiling is so low even the best players can't use them effectively against skilled opponents.

Nope. Having a higher skill ceiling doesnt mean a weapon will get used. Lots of weapons have higher skill ceilings than lasers, yet arnt used in high level play, because lasers are better.

The fundamental problem with LRMs is their miserably slow travel time and the fact we have invincible buildings/trees/rocks that you can just dodge behind. Not to mention the literally dozens of other counters LRMs have including ECM/AMS/Radar Derp/etc...

You could raise the skill ceiling all you want on LRMs. But unless you also make it so LRMs can actually connect with the target as easily as lasers, players will continue to favor lasers.

Edited by Khobai, 24 December 2017 - 12:23 AM.

[MischiefSC]

The inability to put shots usefully on target based on targets lack of skill vs your own skill is why the LRM skill ceiling is so low.

[Maxxi]

Please stop bringing ERLL. Be a man an get to the middle to a close combat fist fight.

[DAYLEET]

OmniFail, on 23 December 2017 - 07:11 PM, said:

For clarification. You hate the player not the game?

Cant you just hate wilful mediocrity roleplayers? Three or four days ago i dropped with an AS7 and MK2 that were decked with lrm and did their damn best to stay at 800 meters from the fight. Of course everybody got to spectate those clowns at the end of the match. The worst is these guys kept talking in voip like they were accomplishing anything "Im shooting missile on Lima!" and asking for this and that from the team. They sounded professional while being detrimental to the team, at a range that made sure 2/3 of their lrm savagely punished the ground.

It was like playing in Roleplay Land, it could be funny if everyone is on the joke. The last thing i heard from one them as i click quit was "...500 damage..." and its aggravating to know these guys think their damage had any value. Its not like im hating on lrm and never use them. The game give them the tools not the means. Its not a case of hate the player not the game because its not how the game wants to be played.

Edited by DAYLEET, 24 December 2017 - 09:42 AM.

[MischiefSC]

DAYLEET, on 24 December 2017 - 09:41 AM, said:

Cant you just hate wilful mediocrity roleplayers? Three or four days ago i dropped with an AS7 and MK2 that were decked with lrm and did their damn best to stay at 800 meters from the fight. Of course everybody got to spectate those clowns at the end of the match. The worst is these guys kept talking in voip like they were accomplishing anything "Im shooting missile on Lima!" and asking for this and that from the team. They sounded professional while being detrimental to the team, at a range that made sure 2/3 of their lrm savagely punished the ground.

It was like playing in Roleplay Land, it could be funny if everyone is on the joke. The last thing i heard from one them as i click quit was "...500 damage..." and its aggravating to know these guys think their damage had any value. Its not like im hating on lrm and never use them. The game give them the tools not the means. Its not a case of hate the player not the game because its not how the game wants to be played.

Bad habits begetting bad habits. They get damage by playing poorly and contributing to a loss. Then try think that well at least they did good damage.

High win rate >>> high damage, because high famage with low wins means your damage is consistently worthless.

[OmniFail]

DAYLEET, on 24 December 2017 - 09:41 AM, said:

Cant you just hate wilful mediocrity roleplayers? Three or four days ago i dropped with an AS7 and MK2 that were decked with lrm and did their damn best to stay at 800 meters from the fight. Of course everybody got to spectate those clowns at the end of the match. The worst is these guys kept talking in voip like they were accomplishing anything "Im shooting missile on Lima!" and asking for this and that from the team. They sounded professional while being detrimental to the team, at a range that made sure 2/3 of their lrm savagely punished the ground.

It was like playing in Roleplay Land, it could be funny if everyone is on the joke. The last thing i heard from one them as i click quit was "...500 damage..." and its aggravating to know these guys think their damage had any value. Its not like im hating on lrm and never use them. The game give them the tools not the means. Its not a case of hate the player not the game because its not how the game wants to be played.

OK I'm not going to lie. I see those bad lurm boaters too. I think I might even hate them more than you guys. Because they proliferate the idea that all lurm boaters are bad. I especially hate the ones that don't carry close range weapons and specifically the ones that don't carry enough close range weapons. Because in the end your best bet to be effective when boating lurms is to move with the group and focus fire. Note moving with the group and focusing fire is not armor sharing.

But that being said there are a lot of bad direct fire players also. Some of them are so bad that maybe they should boat lurms till they get the hang of MWO. Its so easy you can do it with your foot and pull 750 damage. Right.

Another thing to keep in mind is that not all people that enjoy playing with lurms do not boat lurms all the time. I my self love riding around in my Douchestrike and my Mistlynx-G. When I read your guys posts it seems as if you think were all stand in the back and rain lurms, We know how to use direct fire, Most good lurm boats builds have decent close range fire power, While they don't have the fire power as a dedicated face tanker they are still helpful when the enemy closes range.

For example many people chose to run their Douchestrikes with 2x uAC10 and 6xcMPLs. It's sweet that way. Is there better builds? Maybe but for the sake of examples. I like to run in my SNV-BR that MischiefSC scoffed at with a mixed build of direct and indirect fire. It's literally 2/3 of a Douchestrike with a side order of lurms. Sure it doesn't have the in the face fire power of a Douchestrike and would have more with SRM's instead of Lurms. But as a trade off I get indirect fire capability. It really pays off when walking to the front and those times when the bad kamakazi Rambo fast mediums and lights are sharing armor so aggressively I can't shoot my direct fire weapons for fear of blowing a big old hole in the backs of the back shaving alpha strikers.

Here is the build for you to mock and ridicule. It has several major problems. But it has the Bang Bangs, The Wub Wubs, and the Swish Swoosh. Its hella fun.



Here is a example of a medium Huntsman lurm boat with significant close range weapons for the noobs that are reading. I have a ton of good (significant close range weapons) Huntsman lurm builds. Had to trim some armor to make it work but hey its a lurm boat.



So just don't act like all lurm boaters don't know about direct fire. Don't act like there isn't 10 really bad kamikaze Rambo or **** sniper direct fire guys for ever one bad lurm boater. Because from what I have seen there are. And if your a bad lurm boater without significant close range fire. Git Gud your making the rest of us look bad.