14 replies to this topic

[Magnus Santini]

This thread is not about balancing weak and strong mechs. There are many branches on the skill tree, with many former capabilities moved there. But all mechs need to make choices between armor, mobility, and firepower, so that is balanced. But mechs that have jump jets, ECM, or AMS need to devote so many nodes to making those systems work that I think they should be able to add more total SP. Maybe five extra for each of those systems. Maybe two extra nodes if you take any consumables. So it would still be a choice to enhance those systems, but not make a mech crippled to do it. The example that made me notice this is the Hellspawn. It is a fast XL medium and is likely to need all it can get from mobility and survival. But skilling all these systems means that you may have to ignore sensor tree. What do you think?

[FupDup]

And what's to stop people from using their extra points on everything except JJs/ECM/etc?

[Magnus Santini]

FupDup, on 14 December 2017 - 11:03 AM, said:

And what's to stop people from using their extra points on everything except JJs/ECM/etc?

I agree that points should have to be put into those systems to get the extra totals.

[Bud Crue]

Sort of like quirks for the skills tree for mechs in need of a bit of oomph?

Dear god help us.

I can just see this being another way for PGI to jerk folk’s and their builds around by deciding to add and subtract from these SP totals in the same way that they jerk around quirks now via the dartboard. More likely I can see them running with your idea and removing all current quirks and replacing them with tree specific bonus SP, since by changing those willynilly they will force players to spend XP and Cbills when you are forced to respec after a nerfing.

Mods please delete this thread before a dev gets ahold of this.

[Magnus Santini]

Bud Crue, on 14 December 2017 - 11:17 AM, said:

. . . More likely I can see them running with your idea and removing all current quirks and replacing them with tree specific bonus SP, since by changing those willynilly they will force players to spend XP and Cbills when you are forced to respec after a nerfing.

The alternative is I think to take these systems out of the tree and just give all mechs using them the full skills. So my idea lets there at least be a learning curve. But it is not fair for mechs that rely on certain equipment to have to sacrifice the same level of sensors, armor or mobility that every other mech has to make it usable.

[UnofficialOperator]

FupDup, on 14 December 2017 - 11:03 AM, said:

And what's to stop people from using their extra points on everything except JJs/ECM/etc?

Duh. Just code it that the extra points can only be used in those specific trees.

[Khobai]

Quote

Duh. Just code it that the extra points can only be used in those specific trees.

that just sidesteps the issue that those skill trees arnt worth spending points on in the first place


a better solution would be to get rid of all the useless skill nodes and rework the skill tree around mech roles

divide mechs into 7 roles and each role would have its own unique skill tree (i.e. command, assault, striker/skirmisher, brawler, harasser, scout, support, etc...), along with some generic skill trees shared by all 7 roles

if people play the mech in its intended role, they would be awarded free skill points to use in the generic trees.

for example, every 3-5 points you put in your role skill tree, awards you 1 free skill point to spend on the generic skill trees. Youd get a couple extra skill points at most, but its something.

so if you were playing a harasser role mech like a jenner, and put points into the harasser skill tree, youd get awarded free skill points to put into the generic trees. but all the jumpjet skills people normally wouldnt take would come built-in to the harasser skill tree. because harassers use jumpjets... thats part of their role.

it rewards people for playing the mech as lore intends

and it still gives you the option to not play the mech that way, but you lose the incentive of the free skill points.

Edited by Khobai, 14 December 2017 - 12:46 PM.

[Airu]

Khobai, on 14 December 2017 - 12:30 PM, said:

that just sidesteps the issue that those skill trees arnt worth spending points on in the first place


a better solution would be to get rid of all the useless skill nodes and rework the skill tree around mech roles

divide mechs into 7 roles and each role would have its own unique skill tree (i.e. command, assault, striker/skirmisher, brawler, harasser, scout, support, etc...), along with some generic skill trees shared by all 7 roles

if people play the mech in its intended role, they would be awarded free skill points to use in the generic trees.

for example, something like every X points you put in your role skill tree, awards you 1 free skill point to spend on the generic skill trees.

so if you were playing a harasser role mech like a jenner, and put points into the harasser skill tree, youd get awarded free skill points to put into the generic trees. but all the jumpjet skills people normally wouldnt take would come built-in to the harasser skill tree.

it rewards people for playing the mech as lore intends

and it still gives you the option to not play the mech that way, but you lose the incentive of the free skill points.

And that would be the opposite of what skill tree is suppose to do - provide diversity and customization.
Barely anyone will play roles other than skirmisher, brawler or sniper, anything else does not exist in this game.
Maybe I want to have a glass cannon mech that is also very mobile and got lots of jump jets, how would you make it work with roles?
PGI just need to buff the hell out of JJ tree and make sensors matter other than radar derp.

Edited by Airu, 14 December 2017 - 12:54 PM.

[Mole]

No. If you start giving me extra SP on a 'mech chassis I'm going to use it to max out Mobility, operations, firepower, and survival in that order before I ever go into JJs or ECM. And if you're going to lock those extra skill points to the respective tree that they are intended for, then why not just universally buff ECM and JJs instead of forcing skill points that must always be spent on the same nodes? This isn't a good idea.

Edited by Mole, 14 December 2017 - 01:03 PM.

[Daurock]

Khobai, on 14 December 2017 - 12:30 PM, said:

that just sidesteps the issue that those skill trees arnt worth spending points on in the first place


a better solution would be to get rid of all the useless skill nodes and rework the skill tree around mech roles

etc. . .

I agree with the general premise here, that the some trees have a lot of useless "chaff" in them.

However, i would rather have them simply Buff and Condense the "Bad" skills somewhat, and, and make the "Good" skills a little more point intensive. For example, we can look at the Ops Tree - The Heat containment and cool running skills are VERY good, but you have to take a lot of "Bad" Skills, to get them. I'd like to see the tree re-worked so that you only have 1 or two of the "Bad" skills available in the entire tree, and have them moved to the outside edges. Then, you fill in the middle of the tree with more heat containment/cool running skill points. To keep from power creep, you then nerf each point a tad, so that a player still has to put the same number of points into the tree to get what he wants.

Essentially, it then becomes an actual choice. Ideally, you have more "Do i get that extra 1% (lowered from 2%) heat containment, or do i pickup a 35% (Up from 17.5%) gyro?" questions, and fewer "How can i put as few points into the tree to get all the nodes i actually want? or "How many Heat containment/cool running nodes can i get for 10 points?" questions.

Edited by Daurock, 14 December 2017 - 01:09 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

And that would be the opposite of what skill tree is suppose to do - provide diversity and customization.
Barely anyone will play roles other than skirmisher, brawler or sniper, anything else does not exist in this game.

the whole point of role skill trees is to expand those other roles so they do exist and so people can play them.

just because they dont exist doesnt mean they cant exist.

for example, you could make scouting/sensor warfare/electronic warfare a crucial part of the game with just a few changes and a few new pieces of equipment.


you just have to change the way damage works so you cant do decent damage past optimum range without a sensor lock. suddenly sensor locks become very important.

if you then reduce the sensor range of most assaults and heavies, they now have to rely on mediums and lights for sensor locks.

we have just created the fundamentals for a scout role.

those fundamentals can then be expanded through the scout skill tree by adding new abilities and equipment unlocks. ghost ecm mode to create fake radar contacts. give ECM back the ability to cut off sensor sharing like it used to in beta. A new BAP skill that allows BAP to detect all enemy mechs regardless of buildings/terrain/LoS. Seismic Sensor probe consumables. multitargeting. critical shot indictor. all the other things we were promised and never got. Etc...


Creating new roles is easy. PGI just has to stop banging rocks together with 1v1 Solaris. And make their actual game better instead.

Edited by Khobai, 14 December 2017 - 01:28 PM.

[Xmith]

JJ/ HGN combo, jump sniping and ECM was the scourge of the player base at one time. This is why the nodes are set up the way they are now. You have to give up something to get something, else. You can have your cake but you can't eat it all.

[N0ni]

FupDup, on 14 December 2017 - 11:03 AM, said:

And what's to stop people from using their extra points on everything except JJs/ECM/etc?

Honor system. I have good faith in the community to only invest the extra points into underwhelming skill trees (as i spit out some peppermint mocha typing that out , yeah right i'd put those suckers in more firepower/mobility).

[mistlynx4life]

This was foretold:



It *sounds* like a good idea but it is not. It is bad. A good idea is repealing a Skill Tree that has never resembled what was promised.

[Alex Morgaine]

How much rage you think would be had if you only had true alpha potential like right now if you had an appropriate targeting computer to direct fire weapons or larger, and only .25-.5 delay link fire without it? Would make this skill tree look good ven though it'd be lore accurate xD
That plus target info sharing via c3 would shake things up more, without giving "preferential treatment" to under performers.