104 replies to this topic

[Brain Cancer]

Normally, I pilot a Supernova-A. ATM loadouts. It does pretty good, and at the beginning of this, I was a healthy 1.22 W/L and 1.77 K/D. Heck, last game before this experiment was a six-kill one.

So of course, I wanted to see how terrible it'd be with lurms instead.

One day's worth of play was enough to knock that down to 1.16/1.58. No stopping power whatsoever. LRM 70-80(with Artemis) did noticeably less effective damage than ATM 36, and worse still didn't really benefit from firing at targets in line of sight- salvos that would have broken something with ATMs simply failed to do any really noticeable damage, in part because LRMs actually don't reward you much for doing so. You get no better clustering, no improved damage,nothing but exposure to fire. This encourages hiding, which in turn means your team gets more fire instead.

Moreover, teams actually got worse over time as things shifted from US primetime to European. Depressingly, the lurmboat, even with repeated stomps and the most incompetent basement-humping-on-HPG teams was still barely scoring higher...but given spread, it was right down there in the toilet with the direct fire types. Kills were rare- one game out of a dozen was a 2-kill game, with most being one or zero. The gentle damage of LRMs also emboldens opponents, who rightfully see an easy kill (and yes, I had lasers too). That is, to experience players LRMs are no longer much of a threat. There's no stopping power at this point, with the last spread nerf having defanged the launchers even further than before.

And yes, I know that's old news. What's sad is that it's actually gotten noticeably worse since the Artemis nerf. Sure, you can play aggressively and rack up damage, but it takes dozens more missiles to do serious harm with an LRM now, and more time. Time your opponent has to shoot you or your team. So just don't. Clantech LRMs are probably the worst balanced weapon in the game, closely followed by IS ones.

[El Bandito]

I personally perform better with CLRMs than ATMs. In a slow mech ATM dead zone is pretty crippling.

[xe N on]

What I found strange is that you say ATMs are effective.

ATMS are in a similar bad spot like LRMs. They require a high face time for locking and have a minium range. They have even a flatter trajectory, so indirect fire with ATMs is much harder.

AMS effect ATMs much more than LRMs.

I tried some builds with ATMs but I found out they are just garbage. I found streaks even to be more effective.

Edited by xe N on, 17 December 2017 - 04:30 AM.

[Brain Cancer]

People don't generally use AMS, though. And you don't fire indirect. You peek over hills. You dump missiles into people at shorter ranges, so you actually deal damage.

I mean, I just swapped back to ATMs. Bang. Two dead targets, both with torsos that I'd have to spend another full minute or so hosing down with LRMs to make an impression, plus a KMDD on a Javelin I just plain abused every time it got in LOS.

I mean, I used to run LRM boats all the time. This last nerf was the final straw in terms of effectiveness- the LRM, especially the CLRM is now an all-around sandblaster. I mean, I was on Polar earlier and got rained on until I was down to 20% health.

I didn't lose a single component or piece of equipment. That's just ridiculously poor now, when an assault gets that much spread on hits without even really trying.

[Daggett]

Brain Cancer, on 17 December 2017 - 04:07 AM, said:

Normally, I pilot a Supernova-A. ATM loadouts. It does pretty good, and at the beginning of this, I was a healthy 1.22 W/L and 1.77 K/D. Heck, last game before this experiment was a six-kill one.

So of course, I wanted to see how terrible it'd be with lurms instead.

Try a faster and more agile mech like the Mad Dog. Despite popular belief lurming is all about positioning, which is not the Supernova's strength. It is simply too slow to get into good positions quickly.

Also try smaller launchers like LRM-10 without artemis. The spread on those is small enough to bring much more missiles into torsos instead of arms and legs. As you've seen by yourself Artemis can't reduce spread reliably and good enough, so the easiest way to mitigate this is by using LRM-10.

A fast and agile LRM-50 Mad Dog can be much more efficient than a sluggish LRM-80 + Artemis Assault.

Edited by Daggett, 17 December 2017 - 05:07 AM.

[Appogee]

But have you tried playing ATMs with your foot?

[Jonathan8883]

I thought the LRM spreads had been normalized in a recent patch?

[Daggett]

Jonathan8883, on 17 December 2017 - 05:20 AM, said:

I thought the LRM spreads had been normalized in a recent patch?

LRM spread was not touched in the last few patches, only the Artemis bonus.

The normalizing you probably mean was done quite a while ago and gave the smaller LRM-5 and LRM-10 launchers a spread of 4.2 while the bigger launchers got 5.2 for both IS and Clan.

[Ensaine]

I bought the SNV-A yesterday, loaded up LRM 80, and a quad of MPL's .......I'm not a big ranged guy anymore. I USED to LRM a lot a couple of years ago, when Stalkers made good LRM boats....

LRM's are NOT what they used to be. With my 60 tubes on my Stalker, I used to salvo a mech say 3-4 times, and that mech is in deep kimchi. Now, with the LRM 80, 3-4 Salvos does WAY less damage to a mech. Takes way more work to keep locks, as the general player base is even worse now on getting locks, with may people simply REFUSING to hit R.

Yes, I play second line when I LRM, but immediately behind 1st line. My armor is available, and I often melee with my MPL's.....

Point is, LRM's , though annoying as hell when the 'other team' has 2-3 boats, no longer are the terrors they used to be.

Something I do want to address, however, is, what I saw being called 'trash damage' in another LRM thread.......No such thing IMO, as 'trash damage'.

I like to make things real basic. If I whack you in the arm with a stick, you'll go 'OW', and most likely be none too happy with me. Ok, you'll get over it.
NOW, you have a tender spot, don't ya. I whack you there, same spot... again. More tender, maybe a small bruise.
I whack ya there again, and now it really hurts. Arm is still functional, but man, that spot !!!

So, after hitting you 3 times, you kill me.
My buddy walks up, whacks you in that same spot. He went right to disabling the arm. No need to hew down the resistance to bruising and pain.

So, when an LRM boat does 500+ damage, even 1k damage, thats a lot of whittling down those resistances. No, not killing damage, but way less armor, then if you met the enemy when he was fresh.

Really... how many times you see an enemy mech, who crossed an open area to get caught up to his buddies, still pretty healthy, but with say an exposed torso. You walk up, put 2 giantlikeguns into that spot.. .blammo, no more arm or torso. And you didn't have to hack through the armor first.

LRM's to me are really not much different than the LL spam we all see. Long range, minimum damage at great ranges, but a laser blast is over in seconds, where a volley of LRM's basically announce themselves on launch, allowing you to duck to safety, or go hug an AMS ally.

I'll be trying the SNV with some ATM's today.

Edited by Ensaine, 17 December 2017 - 05:49 AM.

[SteelMantis]

I recently tried a month long solo QP LRM only experiment and did pretty well.

One thing I love about LRMs in higher tier games is something you didn't like, good players will beeline for the source of the LRM and it is often possible to lure them into bad positions

[Daggett]

Ensaine, on 17 December 2017 - 05:49 AM, said:

Takes way more work to keep locks, as the general player base is even worse now on getting locks, with may people simply REFUSING to hit R.

If you rely on other players pressing R and holding locks, you are doomed. You are putting your ability to influence the match into destiny's hand which can go well, but more often than not it doesn't.

To be successful with Lurms one needs to aquire his own locks. And that's a main reason why most assaults are not ideal for lurms as their main weapon even if they share armor. They are often simply too slow to get their own locks without catching too much return fire.

Edited by Daggett, 17 December 2017 - 06:03 AM.

[Jonathan8883]

Testing Grounds with a Mad Dog.
ALRM15: 10 salvos to kill Cicada. Destroyed CT, had both legs stripped.
3xALRM5: 8 salvos to kill Cicada. Destroyed CT, had one leg stripped and the other one with orange or red armor.

Time to switch my MDD back to LRM 5s.

6xALRM5 gives me a Ghost Heat warning, so I may have to ripple fire them.

Edited by Jonathan8883, 17 December 2017 - 06:17 AM.

[Ensaine]

Daggett, on 17 December 2017 - 05:58 AM, said:

If you rely on other players pressing R and holding locks, you are doomed. You are putting your ability to influence the match into destiny's hand which can go well, but more often than not it doesn't.

To be successful with Lurms one needs to aquire his own locks. And that's a main reason why most assaults are not ideal for lurms as their main weapon even if they share armor. They are often simply too slow to get their own locks without catching too much return fire.

Oh, I get my own locks most of the time, unless I'm dropping with buddies from TS.....I rely on no one in a straight up solo drop.

[Appogee]

Ensaine, on 17 December 2017 - 05:49 AM, said:

Something I do want to address, however, is, what I saw being called 'trash damage' in another LRM thread.......No such thing IMO, as 'trash damage'. I like to make things real basic. If I whack you in the arm with a stick, you'll go 'OW', and most likely be none too happy with me. Ok, you'll get over it.

Invalid analogy.

With LRMs, you're not whacking anyone in the arm. You're flicking them, just a little, all over. And then you're flicking them all over just a little again. And again. Nowhere gets bruised until you've flicked them a dozen times.

So your 500 damage is about as useful as 100 damage delivered directly to one component.

It's a pity MWO's scoring system does not take into sufficient account the 'usefulness' of damage. It might encourage more players to deliver useful damage.

Edited by Appogee, 17 December 2017 - 06:24 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Reposting this. It took approximately 40 seconds of nonstop LRM to kill a single Atlas. Keeping in mind that I put my mech at risk to maintain my own locks, and even threw in one blast from a pair of MPLas to try and secure the kill.

One person who commented (thank you Ackurus!) did the math:

897 LRM ammo at start of video 297 at end of video. You unloaded 630 or 3.5 tonnes of missiles into that Atlas. At best case with 100% impact you had a damage output of 19.68 per second (over 32 seconds). You spent 24.5 tonnes just for this fight, giving this build a mass efficiency of 0.8 damage per second-ton (nevermind if you include cooling in the tonnage also). You also have to expose yourself or leave your team to take the damage for you to run this kind of 'Mech. So we can say it comes with a armor cost also. If you account for back armor the Atlas has 386 hitpoints for all combined torso. So, at BEST only 61% connected where it mattered in this clip. At worst with precision weapons only 186 damage would need to be done to core that Atlas out. Even if you miss the CT 1/3 of the time it's still easier.



I absolutely do not deny that LRM are fun. It is such a troll weapon in that it makes someone hate life on the enemy team. It is decent at keeping people buried into cover at risk of taking nonstop chip damage. However, it is isn't a very good weapon for actually getting kills or effectively placing damage on targets.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 17 December 2017 - 07:07 AM.

[Asym]

Hey OP, good try.... Been there with you and seen this.... LRM's are hosed. ATM's will be next. The ATM-36 SNA can be OP if positioned correctly. Absolutely fatal. My MDD with 2xLRM10's and the rest streaks fills a small LRM niche that is a second tier IDF "opportunist" slot. I shoot the falnking mechs the direct fire fire line can't see....so that when those mechs come into direct fire play, they are carrying 50 to 150 damge with them from LRMs..... A very small niche......for LRMs now. SO SAD !!! But, Solaris can't have efficient IDF or guided missles at all to work......expect ATMs/Streaks to be neutered next....

[tenchugecko]

R is suited for the enemies you dont shoot and see. dmg-wallhack

[Brain Cancer]

Daggett, on 17 December 2017 - 05:07 AM, said:

Try a faster and more agile mech like the Mad Dog. Despite popular belief lurming is all about positioning, which is not the Supernova's strength. It is simply too slow to get into good positions quickly.

Also try smaller launchers like LRM-10 without artemis. The spread on those is small enough to bring much more missiles into torsos instead of arms and legs. As you've seen by yourself Artemis can't reduce spread reliably and good enough, so the easiest way to mitigate this is by using LRM-10.

A fast and agile LRM-50 Mad Dog can be much more efficient than a sluggish LRM-80 + Artemis Assault.

Been there, done that on Stormcrows. The lower effectiveness is still there, simply due to spread... it's just less so because total spread is lower. If you didn't Artemis, no change. What it also effectively does is put a soft limit on missile count for LRMs. It used to be "don't use 20s". Now it's "don't use 15s or 20s". It also means fewer effective missiles per salvo due to GH and an additional tonnage tax for Artemis because now, LRM 50 is 5 launchers rather than three.

At that point, most bigger models are better off abandoning the system entirely.

[Y E O N N E]

Pariah Devalis, on 17 December 2017 - 07:05 AM, said:

One person who commented (thank you Ackurus!) did the math:

897 LRM ammo at start of video 297 at end of video. You unloaded 630 or 3.5 tonnes of missiles into that Atlas.

Lel

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 17 December 2017 - 11:47 AM.

[SFC174]

My favorite SNV-A build is 2 LRM10 and 2 ATM12 (and of course lasers, gotta have lasers). I started doing that to focus the AMS fire on the LRMs while the ATMs come in just behind them (after watching multiple AMS mechs just eat all my ATMs). Works out pretty well, gives you the ability to lob in some harassing fire when out of position or out of LOS too.

That said, I don't play it very often because, well, outside of SRM splat builds on a few special mechs, missile builds just don't get the job done consistently enough, especially in SoloQ.