242 replies to this topic

[Jay Leon Hart]

Grus, on 26 December 2017 - 09:53 AM, said:

But IS mechs have a huge advantage right now in invasion due to map designs.

So that would be... what, exactly?

It's not firepower, range, speed or heat efficiency. Survivability, perhaps? Maybe mobility?

[Lykaon]

r4zen, on 24 December 2017 - 01:29 AM, said:

This thread is wild. Trololo to silly BLK-7 vs HBR argument to something interesting....

Y'all keep being you. Merry Christmas.

Given the perameters of an Inner Sphere vs Clan counterpart with the I.S. maintaining a 5-10 ton weight advantage what two mechs would you compare using similar loadouts and role?

[Jay Leon Hart]

Just for the lulz, before "BUT BLRs!!!!!"

Have a tinker with the loadouts, trees & engagement settings

[MischiefSC]

Grus, on 26 December 2017 - 09:53 AM, said:

1. No. 2. Yes 3 hell no. That paragraph just makes me wonder how big your blinders are.

I look at the map and it means nothing. Clans have a higher population than IS or the drop weights wouldn't be swayed. Thus because of higher population we have a bigger pool of better players. Even you can't deny that a good player will make any mech work...

But IS mechs have a huge advantage right now in invasion due to map designs.

....

No, really, are you high?

Do you understand why Clans have had long waits and ghost drops for so long?

Because if there's more people on one side than the other, the side with lower population has to wait for matches.

Do you think that everyone in the top performing units is ********? Incompetent? Just, doesn't understand how the game works or how it's played? That the top page or TWO of the FW leaderboards are full of units that are full of players that are all idiots about how MWO works and is played? Obviously you think all the comp players are morons or that somehow 8 v 8 fights are totally unrelated to 12 v 12 fights and that mechs and weapons, what, don't work the same?

I'm not trying to be personally insulting here but the attitude that you're putting forward, one I see often, is hugely insulting to everyone else. Like somehow we're all morons - even though we're all winning all the time. Why do you think all the top teams are in Clans? Giggles? We like playing with a disadvantage? Do you really, truly think we're just a bunch of morons who don't really understand the game and don't all also own IS mechs?

You use terms like 'blinders' but there is no evidence, none at all, no math and no reality to support IS being stronger. None. Zero. The actual math for DPS, sustained DPS, cooling, alpha, etc. isn't a mystery. It's not like nobody has worked it out. It's not like we haven't all played and tested again and again and again and again and again IS vs Clan performance.

If you're not constantly winning against all comers in Clans that's you playing poorly. Tech imbalance favors Clans, even with the tonnage disparity. That's how significant it is. It was close once, that closeness has been broken. That some people still lose even with it stacked in their favor is a them issue. The population of top tier units in Clans is because even with tonnage advantage Clans are still stronger, so says all the people who win the most.

That you think they're all idiots is really insulting.

Jay Leon Hart, on 26 December 2017 - 09:56 AM, said:

So that would be... what, exactly?

It's not firepower, range, speed or heat efficiency. Survivability, perhaps? Maybe mobility?

CXL > 1/3rd of 1 alpha survivability on a couple of mechs.

Lighter equipment, bigger engine with the same or better firepower = better mobility.

IS has 0 advantages. Clans win in brawl, trade and range, overall survivability and mobility. Ability to take best positions first and reposition more quickly.

Mediums are pretty close with the Assassin and Bushie; people mistake 'not completely one-sided' for 'balanced' though and just can't cope.

[Jay Leon Hart]

MischiefSC, on 26 December 2017 - 10:33 AM, said:

Mediums are pretty close with the Assassin and Bushie; people mistake 'not completely one-sided' for 'balanced' though and just can't cope.

I'd argue that IS has the best Lights overall, they certainly have better choices than Clan. Not that Lights will ever dominate FP, but still.

[Grus]

MischiefSC, on 26 December 2017 - 10:33 AM, said:

....

No, really, are you high?

Do you understand why Clans have had long waits and ghost drops for so long?

Because if there's more people on one side than the other, the side with lower population has to wait for matches.

Do you think that everyone in the top performing units is ********? Incompetent? Just, doesn't understand how the game works or how it's played? That the top page or TWO of the FW leaderboards are full of units that are full of players that are all idiots about how MWO works and is played? Obviously you think all the comp players are morons or that somehow 8 v 8 fights are totally unrelated to 12 v 12 fights and that mechs and weapons, what, don't work the same?

I'm not trying to be personally insulting here but the attitude that you're putting forward, one I see often, is hugely insulting to everyone else. Like somehow we're all morons - even though we're all winning all the time. Why do you think all the top teams are in Clans? Giggles? We like playing with a disadvantage? Do you really, truly think we're just a bunch of morons who don't really understand the game and don't all also own IS mechs?

You use terms like 'blinders' but there is no evidence, none at all, no math and no reality to support IS being stronger. None. Zero. The actual math for DPS, sustained DPS, cooling, alpha, etc. isn't a mystery. It's not like nobody has worked it out. It's not like we haven't all played and tested again and again and again and again and again IS vs Clan performance.

If you're not constantly winning against all comers in Clans that's you playing poorly. Tech imbalance favors Clans, even with the tonnage disparity. That's how significant it is. It was close once, that closeness has been broken. That some people still lose even with it stacked in their favor is a them issue. The population of top tier units in Clans is because even with tonnage advantage Clans are still stronger, so says all the people who win the most.

That you think they're all idiots is really insulting.



CXL > 1/3rd of 1 alpha survivability on a couple of mechs.

Lighter equipment, bigger engine with the same or better firepower = better mobility.

IS has 0 advantages. Clans win in brawl, trade and range, overall survivability and mobility. Ability to take best positions first and reposition more quickly.

Mediums are pretty close with the Assassin and Bushie; people mistake 'not completely one-sided' for 'balanced' though and just can't cope.

of its? Morons? No, egotistical, narcissist, or too used to being held up by better players maybe.

Mudslinging aside; your telling me that the bee shouldn't fly. As I simply look over and watch it land on your shoulder to sting you.

I've bought several IS mech recently to better understand builds so I can counter them better. The assassin, and again shout out to Jay for these can't thank you enough, the deathstrike and Sliphner(2hg). As RJbass and nutty rat can attest to that thing is a beast! I've never seen a mech pick apart a clan mech so fast. And don't get me started on the commando. My best performing light mech so far.

Now I'm only at ~28 skill points into the D'S so it's not on its A game yet. But it's turning into a decent Mech (2gaus6erm) it still gets nailed hard in the st and I find myself wanting to invest heavily into armor tree.

Now flipside to the Cyclops... was a beast from the get go.. frankly aside from the commando it's the most fun I've had in a assault. (Baring alpha days with the atlas

[Jackal Noble]

Or the annihilator which just wrecks in pugland.
Please take on any combination of viable Warhammer builds with a Timber or Gyr.
Try to out LRM an Awesome.
Face off an Assassin with an Arctic Wolf.
Wolfhound vs Cheetah/kitfox/adder/mlx/Jenner IIC.
Double up with a Commando.
Bush vs Stormcrow.
Roughneck vs EBJ.
1 v 1 a lot if not most of those match-up s go to IS

[r4zen]

Lykaon, on 26 December 2017 - 10:09 AM, said:

Given the perameters of an Inner Sphere vs Clan counterpart with the I.S. maintaining a 5-10 ton weight advantage what two mechs would you compare using similar loadouts and role?

I wouldn't. But the discussion of BLK-KNT vs HBR perfectly encapsulated what frustrates a lot of players about balance - if you just look at stats/spreadsheets, you can get silly conclusions.

I used to play League of Legends a lot, and there was a decent balancing mechanic of Rock-Paper-Scissors (not an exact analogue, but you understand what I'm trying to say). Many games use this method.

MWO can't, really, because players are bringing rocks, paper, scissors, shotguns, lasers, orbital cannons, extra armor, etc.etc., and real, in-game balance doesn't occur when based off of a 1v1 on an open field. Hardpoint/mech geometry alone can completely **** up balance and make a 'mech OP or trash tier.

Let's say we 100% accept the conclusion that a 65 ton HBR can outperform a 75 ton BLK-KNT in every appreciable (spreadsheet) metric. Would you say the same for a 65 ton EBJ? The spreadsheet metrics aren't appreciably different. But we all know an EBJ is much easier to CT because of that big nose.

Anyway, I guess my point is that with the extreme variation in this game, it's silly to say "IS OP" or "CLANS OP" based off of a 1v1 matchup. Too easy to cherry pick.

[MischiefSC]

Grus, on 26 December 2017 - 10:49 AM, said:

of its? Morons? No, egotistical, narcissist, or too used to being held up by better players maybe.

Mudslinging aside; your telling me that the bee shouldn't fly. As I simply look over and watch it land on your shoulder to sting you.

I've bought several IS mech recently to better understand builds so I can counter them better. The assassin, and again shout out to Jay for these can't thank you enough, the deathstrike and Sliphner(2hg). As RJbass and nutty rat can attest to that thing is a beast! I've never seen a mech pick apart a clan mech so fast. And don't get me started on the commando. My best performing light mech so far.

Now I'm only at ~28 skill points into the D'S so it's not on its A game yet. But it's turning into a decent Mech (2gaus6erm) it still gets nailed hard in the st and I find myself wanting to invest heavily into armor tree.

Now flipside to the Cyclops... was a beast from the get go.. frankly aside from the commando it's the most fun I've had in a assault. (Baring alpha days with the atlas

You're mistaking anecdotal experience for actual reality.

This isn't about you or me specifically in terms of skill - this is about what actually plays and how. You're saying that all the top performing units, all of them, from FW to comp play, "just don't get it" or are deluded or something.

That'd why people laugh at these discussions, why this forum gets nicknamed the Brown Sea.

How about you actually prove it. Take your team, go IS and kick the ads of all the top performing teams. Go take the OP IS tech and dominate. Instant drops in IS because more people play Clans now so it'll be fast and easy.

Gosh, I know I've never dropped with a good team against good players in Cyclopses and Bushies and Assassins. No idea how that would play out!

Instead of talking a big game on the forums I would love to see the "IS OP" crowd go IS and just show us all how it's done.

Give that mechs still work the same in comp queue you should go roll up that mwowc while you're at it. All those scrubs with blinders on who just don't understand how the game works, you should go show them.

Because the map isn't an accident. The good teams? Literally everyone who's better at this game than you and me? They didn't go Clans because they like playing the underdog. I realize you think everyone else, all the people actually doing the math, testing, dropping in countless private matches to test strats and performance are blind nitwits but you're the one saying the bee is actually a Boeing 747. Everyone else says it's a bee. You need to provide proof.

Go IS. Show us all up. Or is your logic that it's about player skill? Because them what you're saying is that all the people who can and do beat you at the game don't actually understand it as well as you. Going to need some proof there too.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

Clan is still outnumbered in most weights as far as a long list of mechs.

I don't care how many different robots there are to do the job, as long as you take one of them.

[Grus]

MischiefSC, on 26 December 2017 - 12:45 PM, said:

You're mistaking anecdotal experience for actual reality.

This isn't about you or me specifically in terms of skill - this is about what actually plays and how. You're saying that all the top performing units, all of them, from FW to comp play, "just don't get it" or are deluded or something.

That'd why people laugh at these discussions, why this forum gets nicknamed the Brown Sea.

How about you actually prove it. Take your team, go IS and kick the ads of all the top performing teams. Go take the OP IS tech and dominate. Instant drops in IS because more people play Clans now so it'll be fast and easy.

Gosh, I know I've never dropped with a good team against good players in Cyclopses and Bushies and Assassins. No idea how that would play out!

Instead of talking a big game on the forums I would love to see the "IS OP" crowd go IS and just show us all how it's done.

Give that mechs still work the same in comp queue you should go roll up that mwowc while you're at it. All those scrubs with blinders on who just don't understand how the game works, you should go show them.

Because the map isn't an accident. The good teams? Literally everyone who's better at this game than you and me? They didn't go Clans because they like playing the underdog. I realize you think everyone else, all the people actually doing the math, testing, dropping in countless private matches to test strats and performance are blind nitwits but you're the one saying the bee is actually a Boeing 747. Everyone else says it's a bee. You need to provide proof.

Go IS. Show us all up. Or is your logic that it's about player skill? Because them what you're saying is that all the people who can and do beat you at the game don't actually understand it as well as you. Going to need some proof there too.

not switching because I don't won't the L.P. hit considering how close I am to completing GB... and I'm a GB loyalist so...

I take them out enpugh times in QP to get the feel for them and get to see enough of them In FW to see how OP they are. because I don't drop aganced scrubs, we drop aganced damn good units 9/10 times. When IS uses the overabundance of cover and thus negating range advantage of Clans, they can close with realitive ease into brawl range with 50+ PPFLD builds and because of how their ballistics work only have to be exposed for 1 second or less. Right after fireing can turn and twist off half the return fire to a shield arm.. rotate, rince and repeat.

Add to that since clan drop weight has to come in with smaller mech's =less HP pool one hit from that and your armor is red. Next hit you'll likely lose a st or everything in there is wrecked as you watch IS armor just blink....

[VonBruinwald]

MischiefSC, on 26 December 2017 - 12:45 PM, said:

How about you actually prove it. Take your team, go IS and kick the ads of all the top performing teams. Go take the OP IS tech and dominate. Instant drops in IS because more people play Clans now so it'll be fast and easy.

Grus, on 26 December 2017 - 02:25 PM, said:

not switching because I don't won't the L.P. hit considering how close I am to completing GB... and I'm a GB loyalist so...

Let me guess, you went clan because of 'lore' reasons.

Edited by VonBruinwald, 26 December 2017 - 02:32 PM.

[Grus]

VonBruinwald, on 26 December 2017 - 02:31 PM, said:

[/size]

Let me guess, you went clan because of 'lore' reasons.

More of just a big fan of MW2 ghost bear legacy. I remember really getting into that expansion and that clan way back in the day.

Still waiting for my "image enhancement" for clans...

[r4zen]

MischiefSC, on 26 December 2017 - 12:45 PM, said:

You're mistaking anecdotal experience for actual reality.

(snip)

Instead of talking a big game on the forums I would love to see the "IS OP" crowd go IS and just show us all how it's done.

You're wasting your breath, Mischief.

For reference, your debate partner also claimed that MAZR is the NY Yankees of FP units (lol). I'll delete my account if he ever puts his money where his mouth is.

[Grus]

r4zen, on 26 December 2017 - 02:49 PM, said:

You're wasting your breath, Mischief.

For reference, your debate partner also claimed that MAZR is the NY Yankees of FP units (lol). I'll delete my account if he ever puts his money where his mouth is.

you also claimed to be "good" still waiting for that one.

[Y E O N N E]

He seems to win more than you do.

Just sayin'.

[VonBruinwald]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 December 2017 - 03:17 PM, said:

He seems to win more than you do.

Just sayin'.

Mean.

[LT. HARDCASE]

When you reach the point that you can't even admit that the Linebacker is better than the Archer, your bias has completely blinded you.

[Grus]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 December 2017 - 03:17 PM, said:

He seems to win more than you do.

Just sayin'.

not according to mwo stats.. I'm on a cellphone, could you please post those stats for transparency?

[Grus]

Because I just looked at the MWO leaderbords and I'm crushing the scrub.