14 replies to this topic

[Clay Pigeon]

Allowing IS to bring 4 bushwackers but limiting clan to 50 tons puts clan at a severe disadvantage.

[Khobai]

allowing clans to bring stormcrows wont fix anything since the huntsman is already better than the stormcrow

the way they should fix it is make scout mode 2 mediums and 2 lights

[Clay Pigeon]

Khobai, on 26 December 2017 - 05:22 PM, said:

allowing clans to bring stormcrows wont fix anything since the huntsman is already better than the stormcrow

the way they should fix it is make scout mode 2 mediums and 2 lights

Making it 50 tons max for each pilot would be best imho.

[Pariah Devalis]

While a shared weight pool between lancemates is probably the best idea from a gameplay standpoint, from a practicality standpoint it is going to piss a lot of people off since puggies think about themselves first, their lancemates last. Even if they are **** in a 55 ton mech, they'd rather take that than the 30 tonner, which would otherwise free the better pilot to bring more firepower to the table. Instead of giving those who can make the best use of that weight the tools they need to help push the game to victory, it would cause a self-destructive feedback among lancemates in a pugdrop. Makes sense for group queued people, though. 2 people have a 50 ton average. 3 people a 45 ton average. 4 people a 40 ton average.

But, totally redesigning squad tonnages aside:

Yes, the Clans should get access to 55 ton mechs back, but not for combat effectiveness purposes. Simply put, the SCR and upcoming Lanner won't provide any sort of significant advantage to Clan scouting decks. They are outclassed in either missile spam, laser spam, or in the context of damage spreadability and resultant durability.

However, a 55 ton clan mech is worth less, from a monetary standard, than an IS mech of the same tonnage. Simply speaking, you can use your 55 ton IS mech you bought in a mechpack in Scouting. You cannot currently do the same with a Clan 55 ton mechpack mech. Ergo, the value of the IS 55 ton mechpack is, from a consumer standpoint, greater than the Clan one.

In addition, as the 55 ton options wouldn't actually make the Clans any more lethal in scouting, denying access to them really only serves a single purpose: artificially limiting Clan player choices insofar as what chassis they could take into the fight. There is no good reason to have this sort of limitation if it serves no practical purpose from a balance standpoint. All it does is limit options for Clan players which, in mind, is not acceptable considering it isn't actually solving a problem.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 26 December 2017 - 05:47 PM.

[Xavori]

Pariah Devalis, on 26 December 2017 - 05:44 PM, said:

While a shared weight pool between lancemates is probably the best idea from a gameplay standpoint, from a practicality standpoint it is going to piss a lot of people off since puggies think about themselves first, their lancemates last. Even if they are **** in a 55 ton mech, they'd rather take that than the 30 tonner, which would otherwise free the better pilot to bring more firepower to the table. Instead of giving those who can make the best use of that weight the tools they need to help push the game to victory, it would cause a self-destructive feedback among lancemates in a pugdrop. Makes sense for group queued people, though. 2 people have a 50 ton average. 3 people a 45 ton average. 4 people a 40 ton average.

But, totally redesigning squad tonnages aside:

Yes, the Clans should get access to 55 ton mechs back, but not for combat effectiveness purposes. Simply put, the SCR and upcoming Lanner won't provide any sort of significant advantage to Clan scouting decks. They are outclassed in either missile spam, laser spam, or in the context of damage spreadability and resultant durability.

However, a 55 ton clan mech is worth less, from a monetary standard, than an IS mech of the same tonnage. Simply speaking, you can use your 55 ton IS mech you bought in a mechpack in Scouting. You cannot currently do the same with a Clan 55 ton mechpack mech. Ergo, the value of the IS 55 ton mechpack is, from a consumer standpoint, greater than the Clan one.

In addition, as the 55 ton options wouldn't actually make the Clans any more lethal in scouting, denying access to them really only serves a single purpose: artificially limiting Clan player choices insofar as what chassis they could take into the fight. There is no good reason to have this sort of limitation if it serves no practical purpose from a balance standpoint. All it does is limit options for Clan players which, in mind, is not acceptable considering it isn't actually solving a problem.

Uh...

The Kintaro 18, Bushwacker X2 & P1, and the Griffin 2N are all available for c-bills.
The Huntsman P and pretty much any Nova you want are also available for c-bills.

So from a consumer standpoint, all the good scout mechs for both sides are already cheap and readily available.

Giving Clans 55 tons doesn't help firepower. However, both the Black Lanner and Stormcrow are fast which would open up new tactics for the Clan players versus the current "Load up a Huntsman with a gazillion streaks and mash the bad guys" strategy that is really all they have at the moment (well, other than Ice Ferret trolling).

This means the Clans should definitely get their 5 tons in scouting back. Yes, it'll be annoying as IS to actually have to build with slightly larger engines in order to get to the 100kph, but it opens up new strategies which will be a good thing.

[El Bandito]

Clay Pigeon, on 26 December 2017 - 05:38 PM, said:

Making it 50 tons max for each pilot would be best imho.

And soon Clanners will start to ***** about going against 4 Crabs per drop.

[The6thMessenger]

I agree, IS is very imbalanced on scouting, considering how Clan generally runs hotter, while IS is usually more mobile, runs cooler, and overquirked with armor and structures. Unleashing the crow would really be nice.

That being said, IS is very much disparaged on everything else, especially with Clan's auto-delete Laser-Vomit at a longer range. Clan is just far better meta-wise, and unless Clan is balanced with IS at a global scale, it's hard to justify trying to fix the Scouting.

[El Bandito]

The6thMessenger, on 26 December 2017 - 07:05 PM, said:

I agree, IS is very imbalanced on scouting, considering how Clan generally runs hotter, while IS is usually more mobile, runs cooler, and overquirked with armor and structures. Unleashing the crow would really be nice.

That being said, IS is very much disparaged on everything else, especially with Clan's auto-delete Laser-Vomit at a longer range. Clan is just far better meta-wise, and unless Clan is balanced with IS at a global scale, it's hard to justify trying to fix the Scouting.

It says something when Clans are still winning the Invasion mode, even when the IS side constantly has all three scouting bonuses, plus 300 extra tonnage across 12 mechs.

Edited by El Bandito, 26 December 2017 - 08:05 PM.

[Mystere]

El Bandito, on 26 December 2017 - 08:03 PM, said:

It says something when Clans are still winning the Invasion mode ...

Units have gone Clans this time?

[Nameless King]

The6thMessenger, on 26 December 2017 - 07:05 PM, said:

I agree, IS is very imbalanced on scouting, considering how Clan generally runs hotter, while IS is usually more mobile, runs cooler, and overquirked with armor and structures. Unleashing the crow would really be nice.

That being said, IS is very much disparaged on everything else, especially with Clan's auto-delete Laser-Vomit at a longer range. Clan is just far better meta-wise, and unless Clan is balanced with IS at a global scale, it's hard to justify trying to fix the Scouting.

Bring the crow back, we miss getting 700+ a match shooting them.

[Pariah Devalis]

Xavori, on 26 December 2017 - 06:37 PM, said:

Uh...

The Kintaro 18, Bushwacker X2 & P1, and the Griffin 2N are all available for c-bills.
The Huntsman P and pretty much any Nova you want are also available for c-bills.

Uh. You missed my point, or simply didn't understand it...

Seems you and I agree that there's no point in withholding the Clan 55 ton mechs, and that all it does is limit options. However, arguing from a consumer standpoint? Objectively, any 55-ton Clan pack via MC or real world money is currently worth less than an IS 55-ton mech pack because the consumer cannot get equal utility out of it for the same amount of money.

It's all about what you can do with your purchase. If PGI was to release an IS 55 ton mech pack and a Clan 55 ton mech pack, and charged the same for both, the Clan pack would be more expensive than what it should be as you cannot use that same purchase in all the same ways as the IS mech pack purchase. It is locked out of scouting for the Clans, while it isn't for the IS. Black and white.

It's not about the mechs we have already. It's about the mechs we will have in the future. This isn't about a pissing contest about how good a mech that is coming out will be relative to the mechs we already have. It's about value for your money - real money, not space bucks - for a given mech pack.

This also isn't exactly the typical argument people make around here. I'm not talking meta. I'm not talking viability. I'm not making a judgement on whether or not any theoretical new 55-ton mech was good or bad, let alone relative to other existing options. That is totally aside from the point, here.

If I spend $50 on a 55-ton mech pack, I expect to be able to use that mech pack in all the same ways another $50 55-ton mech pack can be used. Right now, this is simply not the case. Any IS 55-ton mech pack gets the benefit of an additional game mode it can be used in.

Ergo, an IS mech pack gets extra value for the same amount of money or, conversely, the Clan mech pack is getting overpriced as it has less value.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 26 December 2017 - 08:43 PM.

[El Bandito]

Mystere, on 26 December 2017 - 08:18 PM, said:

Units have gone Clans this time?

IS side has a lot of good merc unit such as 228 and BCMC. In fact we just faced 228.

Edited by El Bandito, 26 December 2017 - 09:41 PM.

[riverslq]

Make whatever mech you bring have a stock loadout only.
problem solved.

this meta min/max **** is history that way

[Pariah Devalis]

El Bandito, on 26 December 2017 - 09:14 PM, said:

IS side has a lot of good merc unit such as 228 and BCMC. In fact we just faced 228.

Looks like a great fight!

[El Bandito]

Pariah Devalis, on 26 December 2017 - 09:57 PM, said:

Looks like a great fight!

It was! Their split pushes were brutal. We were lucky enough to be the defending side.