109 replies to this topic

[Jman5]

This probably wont come as a surprise to many, but I thought it would be nice to illustrate why the light queue tends to be so low, and why the heavy queue is always so high. Damage number are abnormally high for Heavy mechs, and dismally low for light mechs. It's not exactly an Earth shattering revelation, but people like doing damage and the heavy is the damage king by a mile.

Here, I broke down a bunch of games for you guys. I'll admit this isn't a huge sample size, but it's about 300 points of data in the solo queue.



167 average damage is terrible. Is it really any surprise no one wants to play lights? Also look at all those people who were in the 1-99 damage section. It's the biggest chunk!




At least you're usually breaking 200 damage. Still not that impressive. Again no surprise that mediums are the second least played. Also of note, the biggest chunk is in the 100-199 section. Not good.




TO THE MOON!!! So we went from 231 to 375. That's a huge spike. And the biggest piece of the pie is 500+ damage!




And here we come crashing back to Earth. Assault damage numbers are actually what you would expect to see from heavies, which is a little weird. However it does seem pretty nicely split between each damage section.




As you can see average damage numbers go way out of wack when we get to heavies.


Weirdly though when you flip Assault and Heavy around you get a pretty nice line.


So what the heck is going on with Heavies? Are they the perfect storm of mobility, survivability, and firepower? Or is this simply a matter of good players gravitating toward heavies? But then shouldn't Elo correct for skill?

Edit: It is the year TWENTY SEVENTEEN. The year of the Necro. Threads thought safely locked away re-emerge from the depths of time. Debates long dormant now rampage across the forum-land as their creators helplessly look on.

Now in a world torn asunder only one group can hope to set things right. This Holiday season witness the showdown between Mods and the immortal Threads brought back from the dead in: LOCKDOWN

Edited by Jman5, 01 December 2017 - 08:36 AM.

[Lord0fHats]

As I said in another thread.

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In TDM the most dakka wins 95% of the time.

And I think you already have your answer;

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Are they the perfect storm of mobility, survivability, and firepower?

Oddly the Heavies in MWO are what the mediums should be. A strong blend mobility, survivability, and... killability? W/E.They are the easiest weight class to play well, and even in the hands of inexperienced players can often perform because dakka.

[Wintersdark]

Questions and comments:

Are these numbers your personal results, or the results of everyone in your matches combined?

Damage done != performance in a match.

Elo is ranked per weight class, so should tend to balance out. However, this doesn't mean you should eventually do rougly the same damage in each weight class, because again: Damage done != performance in a match. Not at all.

My personal assault damage is far, far beyond my heavy damage.

[warner2]

Is it the solo queue? Good players tend to take heavies on the solo queue because they want to affect the match in terms of damage and kills and the most reliable way to do that is in a heavy. You have the armour, fire-power, and speed. Assaults are tricky because the rest of the team can leave you high and dry. Mediums are OK if you are in a storm crow (current favourite). Lights, well you've got to be a very good pilot to carry a match in a light. Doable of course, same as medium, but the best bet currently is heavy.

[dubplate]

It's probably a combination of things. It may just be my ELO but I find that if there's an assault it becomes prime target. So they tend to get taken out a bit more quickly. Now you look at heavies, many pack almost as much firepower, they can be faster than many mediums, torso twist well and you don't become prime target if you're next to an assault. For the general playstyle of pug matches heavy mechs seem to be in the sweet spot.

[Ultimax]

The reason that I think Assaults have that weird dip are for a few reasons.


1) Positioning:

Part of being able to do damage, is the ability to get into good positions. Heavies do this better than Assaults. (often because they have risked an XL engine to do so)

2) Specialization:

Most heavies tend to focus on one, or two, weapon systems. Even their hardpoints often lend themselves to this design.

Now look at most IS assaults. Many of them have combination hardpoints of Ballistics, Energy & Missiles


The assaults that can boat? These are the ones that rise to the top.

King Crabs with Quad UACs, Stalkers with Lasers or Missiles, BNC-3E with triple AC 5s, etc.





Most heavies also go XL, they take the risk of a quicker death for gains in firepower.
This is often a trade off many assaults aren't really good at, due to their geometry.




Now what would be interesting is if we could make graphs showing how much focus fire and incoming damage the classes all absorb and contrast that vs. damage output or even add it together for an "overall value" type of score.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 31 March 2015 - 02:52 PM.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Timberwolf, Hellbringer, at least recently have dominated the heavy bracket.

That and most assaults have been the punching bags of the game until now with Direwhales & Kcrabs running the show, the rest of them really don't have Assault worthy firepower that any heavy can't have plus they have the mobility on top of it to really kick it off.

Most of the IS heavies & Mediums got quirked bigtime, and Clan heavies and mediums were already overpowering just about every IS assault from the beginning.

Quirks have bent the balance so much that most IS assaults aren't really more dangerous than your average heavy now, not with random 5-7% quirks vs what some Heavies got, for the most part Assaults still are pretty much the same where firepower is concerned, IS heavies got the best deal out of quirks.

Thats just my opinion though.

[Jman5]

Wintersdark, on 31 March 2015 - 02:46 PM, said:

Questions and comments:

Are these numbers your personal results, or the results of everyone in your matches combined?

Sure, happy to answer. I took these from End of Round screens so it's everyone.

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Damage done != performance in a match.

I would say this is debatable, but I didn't make that claim. However what isn't debatable is that damage is the biggest contributor to match score and earnings directly and indirectly. What I did claim though is that many people put a lot of weight into damage numbers, which IMO explains why people like to play heavies and don't like to play lights.

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Elo is ranked per weight class, so should tend to balance out. However, this doesn't mean you should eventually do rougly the same damage in each weight class, because again: Damage done != performance in a match. Not at all.

I didn't expect it to be 200 across the board or something. However I think it's a little odd that heavies spike so high and then assaults crash back down. We're so used to the idea of heavies being top damage dealers, but imagine if highest damage was the light class. It would seem odd right?

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My personal assault damage is far, far beyond my heavy damage.

YMMV. I'm simply recording what I saw out in the wild.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Jman5, on 31 March 2015 - 02:38 PM, said:

So what the heck is going on with Heavies? Are they the perfect storm of mobility, survivability, and firepower?

This pretty much sums it up.The significantly increased engine caps combined with XL engines favor the heavy class, with standard engines it favors the medium weight class, because those big engines get real heavy at full cost.
It is probably too late to un-ring the teir2 technology bell, but PGI could roll back maximum engine sizes for heavy mechs (or all mechs). Heavies are also the primary beneficiaries of hardpoint inflation, which directly contributes to their overall firepower.
Additionally careful analysis should be give to damage source. Those big numbers are not being put up by Heavy mechs, they are being put up by specific weapons. Figure out what weapons are problematic and address that, of course that could have a direct impact on all weight classes. but it would affect some more than others.

Edited by Agent 0 Fortune, 31 March 2015 - 03:17 PM.

[Xetelian]

This would be helped by many buffs, such as true DHS for the first 10 or not require 10, give more (- heat %) quirks are just a few changes that I've seen mentioned but something clearly needs to be done, even FS9s don't break 300 damage in my elos.

[Gyrok]

Mister D, on 31 March 2015 - 03:01 PM, said:

Timberwolf, Hellbringer, at least recently have dominated the heavy bracket.

That and most assaults have been the punching bags of the game until now with Direwhales & Kcrabs running the show, the rest of them really don't have Assault worthy firepower that any heavy can't have plus they have the mobility on top of it to really kick it off.

Most of the IS heavies & Mediums got quirked bigtime, and Clan heavies and mediums were already overpowering just about every IS assault from the beginning.

Quirks have bent the balance so much that most IS assaults aren't really more dangerous than your average heavy now, not with random 5-7% quirks vs what some Heavies got, for the most part Assaults still are pretty much the same where firepower is concerned, IS heavies got the best deal out of quirks.

Thats just my opinion though.

Yeah, because the Victor and Highlander were never dominating mechs...stalkers have always been shite, and the Battlemaster was never any good with those high energy mounts...right? Of course, the Atlas was never a big deal either I suppose...?

/facetiousness

EDIT: Assaults are not FOTM because everyone and their grandmother has realized the DW is not godly, the KGC is becoming more popular as people acquire them for cbills, and the Stalker is God tier right now.

As for the Atlas...well...yeah...and the poor VTR and HGN are left out with a cold shoulder, and they do not even get ECM.

Edited by Gyrok, 31 March 2015 - 03:25 PM.

[Xetelian]

Gyrok, on 31 March 2015 - 03:23 PM, said:

Yeah, because the Victor and Highlander were never dominating mechs...stalkers have always been shite, and the Battlemaster was never any good with those high energy mounts...right? Of course, the Atlas was never a big deal either I suppose...?

/facetiousness

EDIT: Assaults are not FOTM because everyone and their grandmother has realized the DW is not godly, the KGC is becoming more popular as people acquire them for cbills, and the Stalker is God tier right now.

As for the Atlas...well...yeah...and the poor VTR and HGN are left out with a cold shoulder, and they do not even get ECM.

Yeah the JJ nerf destroyed HGNs and VTR, didn't do the lights any favors either, especially locked ones.

Edited by Xetelian, 31 March 2015 - 03:28 PM.

[Gyrok]

Xetelian, on 31 March 2015 - 03:27 PM, said:

Yeah the JJ nerf destroyed HGNs and VTR, didn't do the lights any favors either, especially locked ones.

Honestly, I am wondering...people begged, and begged, and pleaded, and sacrificed children and pets to get assault mechs nerfed.

So, what happens? Enough children and pets were sacrificed and the PGI gods nerfed assaults heavily.

Now, years (it seems like) later...people are asking why heavies are so popular...maybe because assaults were nerfed so hard to begin with?

May seem circular, however, it seems like this game, and the repercussions of what the player base ask for, is very cyclical.

It is like a Tesla Coil. It will zap everything that is tallest continually until there is nothing left....

[Fate 6]

Jman5, on 31 March 2015 - 02:38 PM, said:

o what the heck is going on with Heavies? Are they the perfect storm of mobility, survivability, and firepower? Or is this simply a matter of good players gravitating toward heavies? But then shouldn't Elo correct for skill?

Timberwolf - perfect combination of mobility, survivability, and firepower.

What I notice when I play with Empyreal (generally regarded as the top team) is that we kill the enemy team so fast that some mechs can't even get in damage. Assaults are sometimes too slow to keep up with the death machine of mediums and heavies, and lights don't always get the chance to maneuver and poke/DPS.

In the matches where Assaults get the chance to do damage they can and should be top damage. Lights can also easily get top damage in drawn out games after the mediums and heavies have gotten beat down. Even in these matches, though, heavies will do decent damage.

Edited by Fate 6, 31 March 2015 - 03:40 PM.

[MadLibrarian]

I have a feeling this is going to change in a few days.

[Lord0fHats]

Something that would really help several mechs is for Engine Tonnage to be tied to Mech weight rather than mech class. This would be a god send; Locusts. Commandos. Cicadas. Ice Ferrets. Dragons. Quick Draws. Victors. Gargoyles. Just off the top of my head.

[InspectorG]

Slow the turning rate on mediums(slightly), Heavies( a decent degree), assaults(greatest degree)

Could be quirked with torso twist rate/range per chassis/variant.

This would give lights more a role vs heavies/assaults.

MadLibrarian, on 31 March 2015 - 03:37 PM, said:

I have a feeling this is going to change in a few days.

SSSHhhhhhh!!!!

Do not talk of such things until it is time!!!

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Jman5, on 31 March 2015 - 03:12 PM, said:

I didn't expect it to be 200 across the board or something. However I think it's a little odd that heavies spike so high and then assaults crash back down. We're so used to the idea of heavies being top damage dealers, but imagine if highest damage was the light class. It would seem odd right?

It may partially be because Assaults are generally the higher priority targets and also don't have the speed to rotate on a push or take too long to get back behind cover.

[Wintersdark]

Jman5, on 31 March 2015 - 03:12 PM, said:

Sure, happy to answer. I took these from End of Round screens so it's everyone.

Awesome. Please understand, I wasn't angling at anything with my post, just curious about methodology and conclusions is all

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I would say this is debatable, but I didn't make that claim. However what isn't debatable is that damage is the biggest contributor to match score and earnings directly and indirectly. What I did claim though is that many people put a lot of weight into damage numbers, which IMO explains why people like to play heavies and don't like to play lights.

Damage done is only a small part of earnings. What pushes earnings up is assists, kills, component destruction, and very significantly things like Savior Kills, Solo Kills, etc.

People (incorrectly) correlate high damage done with high earnings, as high damage done often goes hand in hand with the above bonuses. But the important part is if you understand how the earnings work, you can make a lot more money with less damage done.

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I didn't expect it to be 200 across the board or something. However I think it's a little odd that heavies spike so high and then assaults crash back down. We're so used to the idea of heavies being top damage dealers, but imagine if highest damage was the light class. It would seem odd right?

this isn't odd at all.

Heavies are the easiest class to play, for the reasons you mention. Lights, followed by Assaults, are the hardest classes. Everyone understands why Lights are hard, but most fail to understand why Assaults are hard. The thing with Assaults isn't what others have said (danger of being abandoned, as you can avoid that easily enough - I never have trouble with that in my DireCows, for example) but rather that they are extremely unforgiving of mistakes. Heavies can change direction, reposition with ease, and that allows them to recover from mistakes.

Assaults? Once you've starting moving somewhere, you're committed.

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YMMV. I'm simply recording what I saw out in the wild.

True story: There's lots of bad assault players out there. And when you're bad at assaults, it's like being bad at lights: You just die uselessly.

[Mcgral18]

At first glance I can't help but feel those numbers are very small....but then saw, PUG LIFE.

Perhaps you should use yourself as a benchmark?


Fair assessment though, Big robots get big damage, which is certainly nicer than smaller damage numbers.