41 replies to this topic

[Steel Claws]

OK - I've been thinking about machine guns. All other rapid fire ballistics have a jam cycle and I think machine guns should also. Something along the lines of the RAC jam. Nothing too severe that their effectiveness is totally diminished but enough to level the short ranged field so to speak. Here are my reasons:

1st - They are some of the most effective weapons in the game right now when used in groups of 2 or more. With the crit capabilities and the fact that they light machine guns outrange light lasers for half the weight - why take anything else. The whole argument that you have to get in close to use them is no longer true of any but heavy machineguns.

2nd - It makes sense. Machine guns jam. It makes far more sense for them to jam then say an autocannon. They so outclass small lasers right now. Think of how quick 6-8 SL heat your mech up as compared to 6-8 machine guns that weigh half as much and can fire as long as there is ammo - which comes 2000 per ton. It can take the place of a heat mechanic. Heat was always the nemesis of machineguns (MG 34s and 42s could only fire in brief bursts without melting the barrel) yet in MWO they have none. With just a few tons of ammo you can run around firing pretty much non-stop with virtually no ill effects or constraints.

[FupDup]

Noe.

I wish that MGs could just have a hard-coded damage bonus against structure, and then they'd lose most of their critting abilities in the process. The time it takes to kill someone would remain approximately the same, but the person getting shot would at least get to retain their weapon loadout longer and thus not feel as defenseless (getting all your guns spread across your whole body critted out in about 2-3 seconds sucks).

Otherwise just increase the health on most items. Stuff gets deleted too quickly, even when using the supposedly "tough" IS equipment.

Edited by FupDup, 10 January 2018 - 07:39 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Steel Claws, on 10 January 2018 - 07:32 PM, said:

1st - They are some of the most effective weapons in the game right now when used in groups of 2 or more.

[Brain Cancer]

Why not just go with a tabletop solution here?

MGs start 0-heat and a lower rate of fire/ammo consumption. Once they spin up, they generate more damage from a higher ROF, but also start generating heat. Letting the MGs spin down reverts to low ROF/no heat mode.

[Steel Claws]

Dakota1000, on 10 January 2018 - 07:41 PM, said:

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Let's put it this way - if they weren't effective you wouldn't see them and I see them on at least 3-4 mechs in every drop. Before the machine gun arms got added to the mist Lynx you almost never saw one - now they are everywhere. They are getting put on assaults as well as lights and everything in between. No other weapon can take your weapons off as fast.

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FupDup, on 10 January 2018 - 07:38 PM, said:

Noe.

Otherwise just increase the health on most items. Stuff gets deleted too quickly, even when using the supposedly "tough" IS equipment.

No - giving weapons more health won't protect them from a critical hit - which I don't understand why machine guns have because it makes no sense in a realist world at all. Besides which some weapons have low health numbers for a reason.

[Jackal Noble]

Or just lower crit chance on mgs

[FupDup]

Steel Claws, on 10 January 2018 - 08:10 PM, said:

No - giving weapons more health won't protect them from a critical hit - which I don't understand why machine guns have because it makes no sense in a realist world at all. Besides which some weapons have low health numbers for a reason.

It's not just "some" weapons, it's pretty much everything short of a Class 10/20 AC or Heavy Gauss.

[Trenchbird]

Steel Claws, on 10 January 2018 - 08:10 PM, said:

Let's put it this way - if they weren't effective you wouldn't see them and I see them on at least 3-4 mechs in every drop. Before the machine gun arms got added to the mist Lynx you almost never saw one - now they are everywhere. They are getting put on assaults as well as lights and everything in between. No other weapon can take your weapons off as fast.

Then Tier 1 is indeed a silly place. Or you are exaggerating.

Most likely the latter, considering the only MG boats I regularly see in Tier 2 include Mist Lynxes and Huginns. Haven't seen an assault (Aside from the odd 6X HMG King Crab or Mauler) do that. And those that I do see seem to die in embarrassing ways. Most of the time, I see a Mist Lynx, I disarm it and kill it pretty quick; Or I see it get mowed down due to suicidal overconfidence.

EDIT; As for 2-4 mechs a match doing it, I think you are taking the piss. I see maybe one a match, if that.

Edited by Catten Hart, 10 January 2018 - 08:53 PM.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

C'mon, the guy's claiming that MGs weigh half as much as an equal number of small lasers. If that doesn't scream "did not do the research," nothing will.

1x Clan LMG = 0.25t, 1 slot

1x Clan ERSL = 0.5t, 1 slot

1x Clan ER micro = 0.25t, 1 slot

But since you can't use the LMG without ammo...

1x Clan LMG = 0.25t + 0.5t, 2 slots

If you use two, you get equal tonnage, but the MGs require one more slot. If you go IS, then you can fit two lasers for a single LMG, and three lasers for two. This is scaleable, by the way- 0.5t should be considered the bare minimum for every two guns on a viable MG boat (more is better, but I'm feeling generous). There is simply no way that an array of LMGs, with a useful ammo load, will ever weigh less than an equal number of small lasers.

The LMGs have a longer optimal range... true, but that fails to consider two important facts:

- The lasers are pinpoint; the LMGs have a cone of fire and will hit most of an enemy 'Mech at the edge of their optimal range while the lasers' ability to focus damage is only limited by pilot skill.
- The LMGs require much more facetime to do any significant damage. They crit open components very well, yes... but they are dogshit at opening those components in the first place, which lasers are fabulous for.

The only 'Mech that even comes close to making MGs of any type a viable primary weapon is the 8xMG CritLynx. It's the only one with enough of them to chew through armor (and then only weaker back armor) without requiring dangerous amounts of exposure time. Even that almost invariably carries a laser or two to speed through armor, because the MGs are bad at that part. The upcoming Piranha might just cross the threshold and make it possible to run a pure MG boat, because a potential DPS of 12 with standard MGs is fast enough to strip back armor without significant exposure time. With LMGs, I'm not so sure.

Let's face it... if there are that few 'Mechs in the game that can use MGs as a primary weapon, the things just can't be considered OP in general. If anything needs tuning down, it's those specific variants which can mass-boat them, not the weapon itself. Nerfing MGs across the board would only render the weapon nonviable as a backup on every other 'Mech. We're in a good place right now- people are using MGs, which is good. 'Mechs across BT lore carry MGs; we're supposed to see them on a lot of builds, and they are supposed to be useful. TT MGs did the same damage as an AC2, albeit at a much shorter range. These aren't meant to just be fluff weapons for chasing off nuisance threats- they're capable of damaging and killing 'Mechs in lore, and they should be in MWO as well.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Steel Claws, on 10 January 2018 - 08:10 PM, said:

Let's put it this way - if they weren't effective you wouldn't see them and I see them on at least 3-4 mechs in every drop. Before the machine gun arms got added to the mist Lynx you almost never saw one - now they are everywhere. They are getting put on assaults as well as lights and everything in between. No other weapon can take your weapons off as fast.

A load of things that I see 3-4 mechs have every drop aren't effective, that doesn't stop people from taking loads of them.

A 78 damage laser alpha will take your weapons off much faster than 8 machine guns. If its to your rear then you won't have to worry about your weapons being taken out, you'll just be dead.

[Yosharian]

Nah MGs don't need that. They're in an ok place right now. Maybe a little too potent on some mechs, but overall they're ok.

When the Piranha arrives, then it might be a different story

[El Bandito]

FupDup, on 10 January 2018 - 07:38 PM, said:

I wish that MGs could just have a hard-coded damage bonus against structure, and then they'd lose most of their critting abilities in the process.

This. Consistency, not RNG.

[Lykaon]

Brain Cancer, on 10 January 2018 - 07:52 PM, said:

Why not just go with a tabletop solution here?

MGs start 0-heat and a lower rate of fire/ammo consumption. Once they spin up, they generate more damage from a higher ROF, but also start generating heat. Letting the MGs spin down reverts to low ROF/no heat mode.

Um...whut?

Table top Battletech? or some other game I assume some other game because MGs in battletech use no such mechanic.

Steel Claws, on 10 January 2018 - 07:32 PM, said:

outrange light lasers for half the weight - why take anything else.

Machinegun is .5 tons small laser is .5 tons but honestly machineguns do zero damage it's those nasty little bullets that do the damage so machinegun + minimal ammo allotment is 1 ton or double the weight of a "light laser"

For clans their "light laser" would be an ER micro laser that weighs in at .25 ton while a clan machinegun is also .25 ton and also absolutely harmless without at least .5 tons of ammo. So the clans have a three to one weight ratio in favor of the micro laser. Even the Clan ER-small laser is .5 ton while a MG and minimal ammo would be .75 ton.

And then there is this very simple fact. Energy hardpoints are far more common on most chassis than ballistic hardpoints.

I think that maybe a clancentric viewpoint may have effected your opinion because I.S. mechs...they don't really get to play the light mech MG meta like the clans can.

[Curccu]

Brain Cancer, on 10 January 2018 - 07:52 PM, said:

Why not just go with a tabletop solution here?

MGs start 0-heat and a lower rate of fire/ammo consumption. Once they spin up, they generate more damage from a higher ROF, but also start generating heat. Letting the MGs spin down reverts to low ROF/no heat mode.

tabletop solution like same DPS as AC2?

El Bandito, on 10 January 2018 - 10:29 PM, said:

This. Consistency, not RNG.

But PGI honors BT by having as much dice throwing as possible...

[Burning2nd]

Steel Claws, on 10 January 2018 - 08:10 PM, said:

Let's put it this way - if they weren't effective you wouldn't see them

yep... my lynx was in the corrner stripped... until they came out with the G model, the thing was useless...

once they had the ballistc hard points on the arms.. it went right back in to action.. And its deadly.. but not in the sense that you say it is... its not some over powered little mech that no one can hit like my Pb lct

8 heavy mg's and 2 small er micro's i cant do damage on anything.. until the armor is stripped... then it becomes my turn...

[VonBruinwald]

Just give them a jam bar like the RACs and no spin-up.

[Rayden Wolf]

I am already excited for all those tears at the end of this month. There are some pretty funny builds possible with the Piranha, Laser/MG mixed builds. Enough e-hardpoints to open up the three reartorso parts and crit out every weapon an enemy carries in there. Once they are gone, just **** off.
Poor Assaults out there, get prepared!

[Bud Crue]

Steel Claws, on 10 January 2018 - 08:10 PM, said:

Let's put it this way - if they weren't effective you wouldn't see them and I see them on at least 3-4 mechs in every drop. Before the machine gun arms got added to the mist Lynx you almost never saw one - now they are everywhere. They are getting put on assaults as well as lights and everything in between. No other weapon can take your weapons off as fast.

Mechageezus save us.
Are you actually arguing that a Machine Gun, in and of itself, one lone machine gun, on an ASSAULT of all things is somehow problematic or even merely “effective”. Seriously? Oh, not just one machine gun, we need two to be “effective”? Maybe 4? Something like a 4MG Mauler is what you are thinking is most “effective” at being the fasted way to take an enemies weapons off?

Well, you are wrong. Sorry. But no other way to put it.

Machine guns (note the plural) are only “effective” when boated and only on about maybe 6 builds and nearly all are 45 tons or less and most are clan mechs. And I’m being real generous with the word “effective” here, as in its possible to do better than average in them but only in the right circumstances. There is no problem with machine guns in terms of them being overly effective, being too good at crit-ing, or what have you. IF there is a problem it is with those very few builds that can effectively BOAT 6-8 machine guns and other weapons and which have the speed and survivability to get into effective MG range and stay there. That’s it.

If you are going to argue that something get nerfed, go after that which is indeed problematic. We don’t need more mis-applied overly broad nerf passes to things that are not OP in the first place thank you very much. Machine guns, be they 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or even 6 of them on most mechs are not problematic. A 6MG DDC is rarely played because....wait for it....its not particularly effective running 6 MGs and some lasers compared to just about any other 65 ton mech. Its just a few specific builds (not even mechs or variants, but the specific builds) that one should focus any criticisms and god forbid nerfs at.

If one or two machine guns are not a problem then leave machine guns alone, and if necessary and only if necessary very precisely apply a quirk to those mechs capable of being overly effective with boated machine guns to encourage other weapon’s use and/or to discourage mg boating (spread change, rate of fire, whatever, use your imagination). But hurting everyone’s experience and potential use of a weapon just because they can be effective in a few instances is typical PGI balancing and it is stupid, short sighted and sucks the joy out of the game. Lets not help them with that, K?

Edited by Bud Crue, 11 January 2018 - 05:36 AM.

[Lykaon]

Rayden Wolf, on 11 January 2018 - 05:22 AM, said:

I am already excited for all those tears at the end of this month. There are some pretty funny builds possible with the Piranha, Laser/MG mixed builds. Enough e-hardpoints to open up the three reartorso parts and crit out every weapon an enemy carries in there. Once they are gone, just **** off.
Poor Assaults out there, get prepared!

No joke a pair of Piranhas with the model 1 and 2 working together will be murderous to any isolated mech.

The Piranha-2 uses a 2 weapon group salvo with 6 ER-smalls per group dishing 60 damage in under 2 seconds (with burn duration skills) striping off all the armor from even large assault mech legs and the Piranha-1 just saws it off by chewing off the internals. It's even grimmer for rear torso hits (legs however can not be easily pivoted out of arc and a legged assault is pretty much a gonner)

[vonJerg]

Well, they could go the way they went with gauss and limit the number of mg's that can be fired simultaniously. But, I would rather like them to add an IS counterpart, so both sides of the fence can have their share of the "fun".