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Is Vs Clan Mech On Scouting


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#61 Marquis De Lafayette

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 03:17 PM

^ this
Hazelclaw knows what he is talking about when it comes to scouting. Faced him a few times in scouting when he was IS and I was Clan....always a good fight and he does know what an experienced kiting team can actually consistently do.

Edited by Marquis De Lafayette, 12 January 2018 - 03:19 PM.


#62 Conner Ward

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 03:34 PM

View PostHazeclaw, on 12 January 2018 - 03:02 PM, said:


The bushwacker will beat clan mediums in a knife fight, so if you want to win more often than lose, don't knife fight it

Unfortunately for clans in this case kiting with lasers (which is basically the current Clan scouting meta) is more difficult than just charging towards enemy spamming srms, so take that as you will. It's more difficult to win scouting as clan, but there are setups that once mastered will basically let you win practically every time

now when crow is allowed, it has 178 skilled out yaw angle, let that sink in for a second, one seventy eight. You can basically shoot streaks/atms in it while running straight away from your target chasing you. At least before when crows were in, there were no atms, and no skill tree yaw upgrades. Now all you'll have to do is load it with atms (take a few ER smalls if someone is silly enough to drop an assassin in scouting and it manages to get inside your missile barrier wrecked but still alive), go to an open area on the map, and just run away from IS brawlers chasing you spamming missiles. No aiming required, lots of damage farmed, clans winning scouting is easy mode, gg. It will be inefficient, it will be stupid, and salt will flow in rivers


I was able to get in on the last week of the Stocking Stuffer event and played mostly scouting matches and in most situations, Clans and IS seemed pretty well balanced (the Clan teams I was on won about 50% of the time). The only time that I felt that one side had an overwhelming advantage was on Terra Therma, where the IS side won consistently because their weapons are far more heat efficient than Clan weapons and they were able to group fire while we were either chainfiring or firing small weapon groups. Also, I did see a couple ATM boats, but they never outperformed any of the SRM, SSRM or small laser boats.

#63 Hazeclaw

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 03:47 PM

Marquis, sry if I may have been a bit salty since getting kited by clan in scouting is a bit infuriating, lol, there's just nothing IS brawlers can do, but it's just hilarious when doing it yourself as clan, though not the best thing for the dmg farming events. It takes too long, and will yield lower dmg numbers/match score (but that's an event problem)

#64 Marquis De Lafayette

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 04:55 PM

View PostHazeclaw, on 12 January 2018 - 03:47 PM, said:

Marquis, sry if I may have been a bit salty since getting kited by clan in scouting is a bit infuriating, lol, there's just nothing IS brawlers can do, but it's just hilarious when doing it yourself as clan, though not the best thing for the dmg farming events. It takes too long, and will yield lower dmg numbers/match score (but that's an event problem)


No issue...we are all (or at least most of us) competitive and get frustrated when things don’t go well. ...you were far more challenging than most of the other IS guys in those drops. Yeah...I mostly ran Streak huntsman during the event...not a great way to win...but hey loot bags trump all.

#65 Redasaurus

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 06:47 PM

In all honesty, the biggest issue with scouting is that it isn't really "scouting." As has been mentioned multiple times the largest issue is that PGI's formula only counts "damaged dealt" when calculating match score - hence when they do events and the like scouting simply becomes a 4 v 4 brawl where the goal is simply to do damage. I think they started to realize that many people where having issue with the stocking stuffer event and thats why they put out the "bonus" loot bag option to help more people achieve the 200 loot bags needed for a free mech (which I'm still salty about not coming with the special paint jobs depicted on the event page but that's another story).

Bottom line is that when match score is calculated only by damage dealt there is really not much of an incentive to do anything other than brawl it out. I ran into several teams that played smart during the event - kiting it out in IFR's etc and just utterly wrecked the opposition, but by and large their reward for doing so was a match score somewhere around 200-230ish... despite the fact that they won. Likewise it encourages people to be "selfish" and let their team mates die while they sit back in safety and farm out match score/etc (be it ATMs, streaks, erLL, etc)... and it punishes those people willing to be the frontline "tank" because they'll never get a decent enough match score despite taking the hits that allow their team-mates to live.

Honestly I think a more interesting solution to scouting would be to include match score points for actually gathering or guarding intel and to average the match score for each side and award it to all team-mates on that side. If you know your match score depends on everyone on the team doing well I would hope you'd be more interested in working as a team.

Lastly, I also think PGI should put some serious thought into having a different threshhold for scouting vs. invasion match scores when doing these types of events... Doing enough damage to get 250 match score isn't too difficult in invasion mode - but to do that much damage in scouting you pretty much have to be willing to brawl it out and pick your enemies apart piece by piece. Which seems contrary to what one would think a "scouting" match should be about.

#66 MovinTarget

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 08:53 PM

Well, that's the rub, if they reward avoidance too much, it would potentially very boring. At least if there is brawl, you get a fight out of it. If it devolves into nothing but a speed race...

Now.

What if you didn't know if you were going to gather or protect until *after* you chose your mech? Would that force people to go for a balance of speed and power instead of skewing one way or the other?

#67 MischiefSC

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 10:13 PM

View PostMzis Kari, on 12 January 2018 - 10:47 AM, said:

Just bought BSW-X1 just to make it clear if it is OP or not. And it definitely is.

It acts basically like a honeybadger. It goes where it wants at a reasonable speed. It kills what it wants. If it gets hit it... you might suppose it begins to twist it torso and tries to break line of sight? No! It doesn't give a single **** and resumes to move on it's own business - and it's good for you as you might got it's attention and you didn't! The only way to meet it and stay alive is to keep the distance, which is only possible if you run 83+kph on your backpedal.The only way to send this tiny monster to its hangar is to drop 200+ tons on top of it. All of this with no SP invested at all, and I wonder what monstosity this thing will become after I max out its survivability tree.

It does not matter if Clans got 5ssrm crows as 104kph is just not enough. We've already got 4srm hunchie and 6ssrm huntsman. I'm running LBX40, 6mpl and 4srma+2mpl HBKIIC's personally and I've found not a single way they are superior or even equal to BSW-X1, nor is HMN that I've ran previously. You can kite it, but you cannot outbrawl it in the same weight class. Clan kiters are easily countered with assassins, not to mention some maps are just bad for kiting.

There is STILL no salt in my post. No, really, cause some days you get the mail, some days the mail gets you, and it is just not our day today. It's okay to lose in a battle of equals. Trouble is IS posess couple of universal 'point towards enemy' setups that can be countered by specialized clan 'all our skill, teamplay and devotion' ones only. Trouble is IS gets some fun while clans get no more than sweet, and I know next time I enter the scouting queue I'll meet at least three BSW in opfor, which is just boring.

The best solution I've seen on this thread is to issue team tonnage limit instead of personal, thus overcoming imba setups in favor of diversity. Moreover, it is not quite necessary to form 4x4 teams as tonnage limit would be more than enough. I'd personally like to oppose half of Steiner scout lance for example in one match and 3BSW+Jenner in another, no matter what I choose as my ride. Just to make it more diverse and unpredictable. Hope some dev reads this tread.


The missile pod on the LT.

The 1X is almost all its firepower on the left side.

The temptation on Bushies is to leg - but that's 70 armor with the usual tweaks, you're close to 100 damage to pull the leg.

You've got to think about the LT. Pull the LT. Directly if you can, via the missile pod up on the back if they're twisted away. If it's a 1X you just turned it into 3 MGs, if it's a 1P it's now just 2 SRM4s. It's also hot and slow.

Bushies are very tanky and carry a great loadout. They're one of the best mediums. A Bushie in a 1 v 1 with a Huntsman is a really, really tough call and likely to end up on pilot skill.

However they're not OP. It's like the Atlas used to be - pull that LT missile stack FIRST. It's also like the HBR; take that LT *first*.

Clans have more total firepower and better heat management. You just have to apply it effectively. The Bushie, at 5 tons heavier and just about the most quirks the IS has is a close match for the lighter Huntsman/HBK IIC.

The real fundamental problem is that Clans are accustomed to just being flat out better in every other weight class (assaults, heavies, potentially lights) so when they run into an even fight they tend to fall apart. IS has always had to play smarter and harder. That there's this narrow slice of situations where the IS plays on an even field is a good thing.

It's also still a place Clans can win (and some of us consistently do). Overall Clans are stronger brawlers than IS - you just have to be really aggressive and win it on big alpha and heatcap advantages.

#68 Ignatius Audene

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 02:18 AM

And bring double coolshot with Skills. Scouting it is possible to coolshot through the enemy

#69 Redasaurus

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 11:05 AM

View PostMovinTarget, on 12 January 2018 - 08:53 PM, said:

Well, that's the rub, if they reward avoidance too much, it would potentially very boring. At least if there is brawl, you get a fight out of it. If it devolves into nothing but a speed race...

Now.

What if you didn't know if you were going to gather or protect until *after* you chose your mech? Would that force people to go for a balance of speed and power instead of skewing one way or the other?



Not really, the idea would be to reward different playstyles vs just singular playstyle of "most damage dealt" i.e. brawling. Likewise if you reward everyone on a side the same match score it would favor cooperation/communication and working together to achieve an objective. As it is right now, when there is an event going on there is really only one playstyle available because if you want match score you have to go for pure damage dealt, nothing else is rewarded. Likewise removing the ability to see whether you're gathering or defending wouldn't fundamentally change the playstyle, it would just slightly shift the meta to potentially award slightly faster builds that still packed a punch, but not much would really be changed.

There's no reason that scouting couldn't use an "incursion" style map with maybe 5 points of intel total and the number of points you escape with as a scout determines your match score. Defenders would hunker down on the intel points instead of running around the map searching for people and gatherers could decide if they wanted to go for an all out brawl or try to lure the defenders out of position so a light mech could rush in and sneak points, etc. That's maybe too "radical" of a change, but the point is scouting in its current state is fairly stale and boring... likewise it just doesn't segue into "invasion" matches in a meaningful way. Sure it can be 'helpful' if someone scouts a planet fully before an invasion drop, but as it stands its just a nice to have and many people end up just ignoring scouting altogether.

#70 Conner Ward

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 11:42 PM

I played more scouting tonight, the matches were still pretty even and the only real deciding factor was whether a team stuck together and focused fire or not. Really there is not much strategy in scouting, it is mostly just a 4 on 4 brawl with a bit more maneuvering than in QP.

#71 Redasaurus

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 01:32 PM

Yeah, but that isn't really the issue Conner... either side can win scouting matches without much of an issue. Like you said, stick together, focus targets (take out legs, drop them fast, etc). The issue is that when there is an event going on there is no differentiation between Invasion vs Scouting match score... which means you have to get a score of 250 in a scouting match. To do that, you have to an excess of 450 damage and get a few bonuses for scouting and lance formation and you got it.

The problem is that if you play to win you won't make match score... you have to tear your enemies apart piece by piece to do enough damage to make the 250 match score. Which basically means brawling and a singular play style.

#72 Conner Ward

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Posted 20 January 2018 - 02:37 PM

View PostRedasaurus, on 20 January 2018 - 01:32 PM, said:

Yeah, but that isn't really the issue Conner... either side can win scouting matches without much of an issue. Like you said, stick together, focus targets (take out legs, drop them fast, etc). The issue is that when there is an event going on there is no differentiation between Invasion vs Scouting match score... which means you have to get a score of 250 in a scouting match. To do that, you have to an excess of 450 damage and get a few bonuses for scouting and lance formation and you got it.

The problem is that if you play to win you won't make match score... you have to tear your enemies apart piece by piece to do enough damage to make the 250 match score. Which basically means brawling and a singular play style.


True, I ran my Streak-boat Arctic Wolf during the time that I played in the last event and I was easily getting 400-750 damage in most matches regardless of whether the team won or lost. I have played a few matches since the event though and you are right that it is not as fun, since massive damage does not always win the game (and it shouldn't in a "scouting" match). Recently I have started using my ACW-A with SRMS and lasers which is more suited for legging Mechs.

Edited by Conner Ward, 20 January 2018 - 02:37 PM.


#73 Mzis Kari

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 05:19 AM

Looking for a suitable 2×HLL ECM kiter. IFR-P allows for hand shielding and can outrun most IS mechs in scouting while SHC-B is jump-capable and more heat-efficient. Laser HBK is way too slow for kiting. Any advice?

inb4 pulled 583 damage (2 kmdd including 1 solo) out of my LBX40 HBK lately, then ran out of ammo and the rest of the team got eaten alive by surviving BSW's, ending up with 2:4 score. It seems I can carry out most mid- to close range duels with it but it is never a duel, even in the pug queue.

#74 Marquis De Lafayette

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Posted 22 January 2018 - 07:47 AM

View PostMzis Kari, on 22 January 2018 - 05:19 AM, said:

Looking for a suitable 2×HLL ECM kiter. IFR-P allows for hand shielding and can outrun most IS mechs in scouting while SHC-B is jump-capable and more heat-efficient. Laser HBK is way too slow for kiting. Any advice?

inb4 pulled 583 damage (2 kmdd including 1 solo) out of my LBX40 HBK lately, then ran out of ammo and the rest of the team got eaten alive by surviving BSW's, ending up with 2:4 score. It seems I can carry out most mid- to close range duels with it but it is never a duel, even in the pug queue.


If you are going to kite, the ability to outrun the range of srm and ssrm brawlers is the most important thing you can have. So...Ice Ferret....accept no substitutes if you are indeed kiting with energy weapons.

#75 Bonfor

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Posted 23 January 2018 - 12:26 PM

Boom: https://mwomercs.com...-changed-to-55/

#76 Grus

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 05:01 PM

View PostBonfor, on 23 January 2018 - 12:26 PM, said:


And here we... go!

#77 Jetwash

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 10:41 AM

going...?

STREAKING....?

#78 Kubernetes

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Posted 16 February 2018 - 02:03 AM

View PostHazeclaw, on 12 January 2018 - 03:02 PM, said:


The bushwacker will beat clan mediums in a knife fight, so if you want to win more often than lose, don't knife fight it

Unfortunately for clans in this case kiting with lasers (which is basically the current Clan scouting meta) is more difficult than just charging towards enemy spamming srms, so take that as you will. It's more difficult to win scouting as clan, but there are setups that once mastered will basically let you win practically every time

now when crow is allowed, it has 178 skilled out yaw angle, let that sink in for a second, one seventy eight. You can basically shoot streaks/atms in it while running straight away from your target chasing you. At least before when crows were in, there were no atms, and no skill tree yaw upgrades. Now all you'll have to do is load it with atms (take a few ER smalls if someone is silly enough to drop an assassin in scouting and it manages to get inside your missile barrier wrecked but still alive), go to an open area on the map, and just run away from IS brawlers chasing you spamming missiles. No aiming required, lots of damage farmed, clans winning scouting is easy mode, gg. It will be inefficient, it will be stupid, and salt will flow in rivers


My unit did this during last Tukkayid with Shadowcats and LRMs. Run circles around brawlers at range and slowly melt them with missiles. Neva loss!





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