250 replies to this topic

[Tincan Nightmare]

Bud Crue, on 31 December 2017 - 03:47 PM, said:

Um, not sure what you are talking about here. Group Queue QP is alive and well. In re FP, absent events wait times for groups and solos alike can be in the 10s of minutes or longer depending on time zone. Splitting that que even further will make those times eve worse. This isn't some pie in the sky theory, it is simple math. The population just isn't there.



CW was only around for just under 2 years before Phase 3 and the stupidity that was the Long Tom, unit taxes and all the rest of that folly. PGI most certainly did "kill" CW with their insistence that the mode and underlying mechanics were "fine" while asking the community how to fix this "fine" mode in two round tables, which they then roundly misinterpreted ignored or listened to far too late.



Read the sign when you first play. CW is most certainly more of a team mode than the rest of the game. Maybe you don't want to listen to PGI here, fine. Tell me though, why is it that none of the team minded folks are the ones asking for a split in the queue?



What? You just described exactly how the mode works right now in your assertion that it is a bad argument. We are forced into 12 v 12, the smaller groups and solos must fit into the puzzle of those groups that are running less than 12 v 12. That is the mode right now and wait times are abysmal outside of events.



See above. Game does that now. if I am running a 6 man, we might get grouped with a solo, a 2 man and a 3 man.



Yes, and that's the problem. Nothing will change unless PGI shows a desire to make their "end game content" be something other than garbage and then act on that desire. You are right on the money here, as that is unlikely...after all the mode is "fine" according to PGI.

Pug QP is where the majority of players are, the point I'm making is that if FP had a pug only queue that mode may be more active as well in comparison to a group FP. Everyone complains about population levels being so low in FP, but no one seems to think it's because pugs don't drop because they don't want to be matched against groups, no somehow PGI ruined the mode and pugs just went back to QP, they weren't driven out by predatory group tactics. Well at least the team players don't think this way. Maybe the population would be there if they knew the playing field would be level, and they wouldn't be shunted into lopsided matches. No one wants to be cannon fodder.

As far as the phases of CW, outside of when it first dropped and was the new shiny, has it ever retained a large portion of the player base? I've been seeing posts about wait times practically for as long as the mode has existed on the forums. I know as a pug player, I was rapidly disinclined to play this mode after getting matched against premades one to many times. It's sad, as I have had some really fun FP matches when it was pugs on both sides, but I can see why players are just dropping out when matched against a group because 9 out of 10 times the outcome is already determined. And what community did PGI consult, you mean the team community that has turned the mode into their personal farming mode? Yah I can see team players advocating for a change, they currently reap the rewards of the mode, and I'm sure they see a pug team opposing them in a match and are horrified that unless they screw up badly they have an ensured win. I imagine most pro athletes in sports would take their current salaries and be allowed to play random people picked off the streets versus another pro team if that was an option, who wouldn't?

As far as the grouping goes, I meant change group size to match what the OP suggested, a group only mode. If you make people group up in even size teams, you can have a match entirely composed of groups without throwing in pugs to be fodder to make up numbers. In your example, your 6 man might be teamed with another 4 man and a 2 man, no solo players. Then maybe you wouldn't have matches of an 8-12 man group facing a team of pugs with a 4 or 5 man thrown in.

Oh and I have read that little warning paragraph PGI put up for CW. It simply states that it is a 'highly-competitive mode' and that 'there is a strong emphasis on team cohesion and specialized mech loadouts, and there is no skill based matchmaking, and matches are often comprised of experienced and organized mechwarriors running well stocked and heavily customized mech loadouts.' Save for that part about 'team cohesion' and 'organized' players, it completely downplays the actual reality of pugs playing in this mode, and that they will be matched unevenly with random strangers against a premade that plays together regularly, in a match they will most likely lose. Oh, and PGI's answer is 'honing your skills in quick play and building up a stock of 4 customized and familiar mechs before joining the fight'. Funny how they don't recommend joining a group.

Edited by Tincan Nightmare, 01 January 2018 - 03:14 PM.

[Mystere]

Tincan Nightmare, on 01 January 2018 - 03:12 PM, said:

Funny how they don't recommend joining a group.

Because quite a number of solos thrived in CW without ever joining a group.

[R Valentine]

FP would probably be a lot more appealing if they unlocked faction based mech restrictions. Clan vs. IS because why? Because we want to show, as harshly as possible, the imbalances between the two sides? Hence the difference in tonnages for every FP mode? I know it's not "lore" to let IS use clan or even less to let clan us IS mechs, but given that PGI's events have absolutely nothing to do with lore anyways, what's the harm in letting everyone play whatever mech they want? They already let mercs work for clans, which is extremely-hyper-mega-super-duper-trooper-anti-lore, so just unlock mech restrictions already. It's dumb and you clearly gave up on lore a long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long time ago. Just like in Frozen, "Let it gooooooooooooooo, let it gooooo!"

[Bud Crue]

Tincan Nightmare, on 01 January 2018 - 03:12 PM, said:

... it is a 'highly-competitive mode' and that 'there is a strong emphasis on team cohesion... matches are often comprised of experienced and organized mechwarriors running well stocked and heavily customized mech loadouts.

Funny how they don't recommend joining a group.

You're right. I guess they should have spelled it out more clearly than "strong emphasis on team cohesion" and "organized mechwarriors" for those who are not as quick on the up take. See, I and apparently many others read that and had the thought:

"Hmm, lets see now, how do I play with a "strong emphasis on team cohesion"? How do I play in an "organized" manner? Huh. This is tough. I know! Maybe I can play with a team! That seems to be a better option for emphasizing team cohesion and organized play than playing by myself! What an epiphany! Thanks for the advice PGI!"

You, by your argument above, apparently read those words and thought:

"Whoohoo! Team cohesion and organized play! This mode is all about solo play! No need to join a team! YES!!!!"

If that is how you approach CW and the many problems it has, there is absolutely nothing I can say or try and explain to you if that is how you honestly believe those words should be interpreted.

[VitriolicViolet]

N0MAD, on 31 December 2017 - 11:06 PM, said:

Sorry buddy but all im reading here is, "blahh blah blahhh, you imply, blahh blahh blahh, insult, blahh blahh blah, bring up some thing completely irrelevant, blahh blahh blah, insult."
Ok buddy i see your tactics here, keep digging your hole.

and everyone here sees your tactics. the amount of fallacies you've used is almost impressive

[Dago Red]

Kiran Yagami, on 01 January 2018 - 04:42 PM, said:

FP would probably be a lot more appealing if they unlocked faction based mech restrictions. Clan vs. IS because why? Because we want to show, as harshly as possible, the imbalances between the two sides? Hence the difference in tonnages for every FP mode? I know it's not "lore" to let IS use clan or even less to let clan us IS mechs, but given that PGI's events have absolutely nothing to do with lore anyways, what's the harm in letting everyone play whatever mech they want? They already let mercs work for clans, which is extremely-hyper-mega-super-duper-trooper-anti-lore, so just unlock mech restrictions already. It's dumb and you clearly gave up on lore a long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long, long time ago. Just like in Frozen, "Let it gooooooooooooooo, let it gooooo!"

I agree the mode would be improved by mercs not being able to work for the clans.

[Kroete]

Cathy, on 01 January 2018 - 01:36 PM, said:

God no..

As others have correctly put

the population won't support it

The cw population wouldnt be hurt, if players that dont play cw would play in pug-cw,
the qp would lose some players, but wouldnt that matter much?
If so, then solaris will do the same and comp-queue would have done the same too.

The 5% dont want pugs in their cw, but they also dont want pugs to play their own cw?
They say "we want better fights", "want to fight only groups",
but the option where they have to play only against groups
and where the pugs have their own cw, they also dont want.

"We want challenging fights" and "we want to play against other groups" is bullshiet,
if you are against an option where this would happen.

So its still only excuses to farm pugs for the challenging 10 minutes 48/12 spawncamping matches.

Edited by Kroete, 02 January 2018 - 02:38 AM.

[Dago Red]

Kroete, on 02 January 2018 - 02:37 AM, said:

The cw population wouldnt be hurt, if players that dont play cw would play in pug-cw,
the qp would lose some players, but wouldnt that matter much?
If so, then solaris will do the same and comp-queue would have done the same too.

The 5% dont want pugs in their cw, but they also dont want pugs to play their own cw?
They say "we want better fights", "want to fight only groups",
but the option where they have to play only against groups
and where the pugs have their own cw, they also dont want.

"We want challenging fights" and "we want to play against other groups" is bullshiet,
if you are against an option where this would happen.

So its still only excuses to farm pugs for the challenging 10 minutes 48/12 spawncamping matches.

One good commander can turn a QP match into an equally hard roll.

What do you think is going to happen when the better unit commanders start dropping into the solo fp que just so they can actually get a game?

[Kroete]

Dago Red, on 02 January 2018 - 02:41 AM, said:

One good commander can turn a QP match into an equally hard roll.

What do you think is going to happen when the better unit commanders start dropping into the solo fp que just so they can actually get a game?

Then he has to take 11 other pugs to fight 12 other pugs who may have also a dropcaller or not.
Thats puglife and its ok and equals out over time.
And dont miss that lots of pugs dont use voice.

Why do you think the 5% would not get any matches without pugs?

Edited by Kroete, 02 January 2018 - 02:57 AM.

[Dago Red]

Kroete, on 02 January 2018 - 02:55 AM, said:

Then he has to take 11 other pugs to fight 12 other pugs who may have also a dropcaller or not.
Thats puglife and its ok and equal over time.
And dont miss that lots of pugs dont use voice.

Why do you think the 5% would not get any matches without pugs?

I'm simply saying that thanks to the uneven distribution the stomps will continue and a pug team is even less likely to show some mercy when commanded what with the looser connectionto their shot caller.

[Kroete]

Dago Red, on 02 January 2018 - 03:00 AM, said:

I'm simply saying that thanks to the uneven distribution the stomps will continue and a pug team is even less likely to show some mercy when commanded what with the looser connectionto their shot caller.

Pug team will be chaos, less chaos with a dropcaller, but still chaos.
Lots dont use voip, some dont read chat, some do what they want,
no team, no social team control, its chaos.

Uneven in some matches, but in the long run, it will even out.

And its seems like 95% of the players prefer it,
if not there would be more then 5% playing in cw/groups.

[Dago Red]

Kroete, on 02 January 2018 - 03:08 AM, said:

Pug team will be chaos, less chaos with a dropcaller, but still chaos.
Lots dont use voip, some dont read chat, some do what they want,
no team, no social team control, its chaos.

Uneven in some matches, but in the long run, it will even out.

And its seems like 95% of the players prefer it,
if not there would be more then 5% playing in cw/groups.

Look all I'm saying is when it turns into group que light I will point and I will laugh while yelling " WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW."

[Vellron2005]

If you ask me, there is a simple solution to FP seal clubbing..

1) Make it so that maximum group size for FP is 4.. and that two groups of 4 can't drop on the same side in the same match if they have the same unit tags..

Yes, this can still be exploited by creating two groups with different tags that are part of the same TS.. but it's a start.. and such groups can easily be identified and reported for exploiting.

2) Support, get off your rear torso and start punishing cheating and toxicity! Anybody who plays FP often, already knows that "strange things happen" when you drop with certain units and certain players. Many have stopped playing FP altogether because of this, and many new players have quit the game because of this too.

3) Make it so that after using all your consumables, and loosing, you still have a positive balance.. right now, using all my consumables (only 3 / mech), and loosing, actually means I'm loosing money!

4) Make it more profitable to go loyalist! Why does Clan Wolf have -40%, and Clan Nova Cat +50% for merc contracts? And then you expect Clan Wolf to fight not one, but two clans at the same time? Not possible when the biggest Clan Wolf unit can't muster enough players to field a single 12-man..

5) Make bigger units go Comp instead of faction play..

or alternatively

6) Abolish ALL UNITS, and provide public TS channels for each faction. So a unit becomes faction-wide, and individual unit's glory is irrelevant. That way, as soon as you join a faction, you get that faction's TS, you go there, and boom, you can have a bigger chance of getting into an organized group. It prevents elitist from grouping up into elite units, and everybody is forced to play with everybody. Naturally, this will mean support will have to deal with more "harassing/language reports..

[TWIAFU]

Vellron2005, on 02 January 2018 - 03:43 AM, said:

If you ask me, there is a simple solution to FP seal clubbing..

1) Make it so that maximum group size for FP is 4.. and that two groups of 4 can't drop on the same side in the same match if they have the same unit tags..

Yes, this can still be exploited by creating two groups with different tags that are part of the same TS.. but it's a start.. and such groups can easily be identified and reported for exploiting.

2) Support, get off your rear torso and start punishing cheating and toxicity! Anybody who plays FP often, already knows that "strange things happen" when you drop with certain units and certain players. Many have stopped playing FP altogether because of this, and many new players have quit the game because of this too.

3) Make it so that after using all your consumables, and loosing, you still have a positive balance.. right now, using all my consumables (only 3 / mech), and loosing, actually means I'm loosing money!

4) Make it more profitable to go loyalist! Why does Clan Wolf have -40%, and Clan Nova Cat +50% for merc contracts? And then you expect Clan Wolf to fight not one, but two clans at the same time? Not possible when the biggest Clan Wolf unit can't muster enough players to field a single 12-man..

5) Make bigger units go Comp instead of faction play..

or alternatively

6) Abolish ALL UNITS, and provide public TS channels for each faction. So a unit becomes faction-wide, and individual unit's glory is irrelevant. That way, as soon as you join a faction, you get that faction's TS, you go there, and boom, you can have a bigger chance of getting into an organized group. It prevents elitist from grouping up into elite units, and everybody is forced to play with everybody. Naturally, this will mean support will have to deal with more "harassing/language reports..

1. And make in a MINIMUM group of at least two then.

2. PGI should name and shame them weekly!

3.Umm, no.

4. Agreed, Loyalist should be inviting. Well, I'm not worried about Clans fighting Clans, because they cannot outside some Event.

5. Ok, so Unit Queue is not really for Units, only Units of a certain size that meet your size standards from what, not actually being in a Unit?

6. Make? No GD way. I'm here for Battletech, you know, fighting for the control of the Inner Sphere, not some bullsh*t comp queue or solaris. Again, non unit players telling unit they cannot play in the queue designed for them.

7. You hit your head on new years? Abolish units/guilds? In a social team game? Dumbest thing I read yet. Next dumbest is wanting PGI to provide YOU with public TS channels when you do not even use the VOIP they gave you now, FOR FREE! Don't even use the FREE TS channels you have access to now.

You may like to be FORCED to play with people you do not want to play with, I do not. I will not.

Dumb.

[Hydrocarbon]

justcallme A S H, on 29 December 2017 - 06:05 PM, said:

One simple issue:

- The population cannot support it.

Ross and his grand FP3.0 failure-patch saw to the major kill off of FP population right then and there.
You split both queues, everyone's wait times will go through the roof. People will stop playing all together.

Why do you think we have QP with Respawns? One bukkit? Are you oblivious to why all this has come about?

Bless you my child for being the first reply to this nonsense. lol

I was there for day one of the split queue. I waited and waited but never got to play. A few days later we finally got matches, but the enemy was a 2-man with ten other 1-man unit tags.

[a gaijin]

I'd rather not drop solo or with a small group in FP and face a 12 man premade, so I just don't play FP at all anymore.

If pgi ever makes it All Pug vs All Pug and all Premade vs Premade then I'll give FW a try again. Until then ...nope.

[Horseman]

Kroete, on 02 January 2018 - 02:55 AM, said:

Then he has to take 11 other pugs to fight 12 other pugs who may have also a dropcaller or not.
Thats puglife and its ok and equals out over time.
And dont miss that lots of pugs dont use voice.

It gets worse. From a Scouting match a couple weeks ago:
( Context: I ran into the guy on a scouting drop as attacker. He disengaged and was wandering around the map while the others died in 4v3, but one of us manged to get the 10th intel. This guy is the last one alive and there's a chance he can make the drop zone if he goes there at full speed, so we're asking him to do that over comms... he's not listening and chases two Ice Ferrets left on clan side. GG, we lost. Then I run into him again on the next drop. )
"<Player>, please pay attention to voice comms this time. We could have won last match if you did."
"**** OFF. Comms are disabled and will STAY disabled."

So yeah. The guy didn't just ignore the comms or fail to communicate... he has intentionally turned them off to cut himself off from any coordination or tactical advice.

Edited by Horseman, 02 January 2018 - 08:20 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Horseman, on 02 January 2018 - 08:02 AM, said:

It gets worse. From a Scouting match a couple weeks ago:
( Context: I ran into the guy on a scouting drop as attacker. He disengaged and was wandering around the map while the others died in 4v3, but one of us manged to get the 10th intel. This guy is the last one alive and there's a chance he can make the drop zone if he goes there at full speed, so we're asking him to do that over comms... he's not listening and chases two Ice Ferrets left on clan side. GG, we lost. Then I run into him again on the next drop. )
"<Player>, please pay attention to voice comms this time. We could have won last match if you did."
"**** OFF. Comms are disabled and will STAY disabled."

So yeah. The guy didn't just ignore the comms or fail to communicate... he has intentionally turned them off to cut himself off from any coordination or tactical advice.

The illusion people calling for this have is that somehow the distribution of player skill will change. Like somehow, magically, this raft of players even worse than they are will drift into existence and join FW and they'll have people they can beat.

It's wrong. All that will happen is the people who lose now will still lose. It'll just be slightly different mix of the same names beating them. All the players communicating and coordinating now will still communicate and coordinate in the pug queue. Are we mixing IS/Clan factions? Are we somehow reshuffling the population?

No, of course not. The whole pug/premade split for FW is an attempt by bad players to nerf teamwork in the hopes that somehow that will result in them winning more. It's like the tonnage changes for groups in group queue 'so that I can drop with 1 or 2 casual friends'. What was the result of that?

No change. At all. They still got crushed because they were bad. It did however reduce the total number of people playing in group queue significantly as the tonnage limits are a huge pain and forced people to play meta if they were going to play group queue. It made the group queue LESS casual, because amazingly enough what it did NOT do was change the skill distribution.

We need to just wait for MW5 and let all those players leave and go play single player with unlimited ammo/heat and god mode turned on so they can pretend they're amazing in a well protected safe space.

THEN we can look at changes to FW. Until then though we're being premature. PGI has already ****** FW about as hard as they can and have given it up for dead, accepting that they failed to deliver on their promises. We don't need to ask them to ruin it a bit more for us.

[Dago Red]

MischiefSC, on 02 January 2018 - 10:19 AM, said:

The illusion people calling for this have is that somehow the distribution of player skill will change. Like somehow, magically, this raft of players even worse than they are will drift into existence and join FW and they'll have people they can beat.

It's wrong. All that will happen is the people who lose now will still lose. It'll just be slightly different mix of the same names beating them. All the players communicating and coordinating now will still communicate and coordinate in the pug queue. Are we mixing IS/Clan factions? Are we somehow reshuffling the population?

No, of course not. The whole pug/premade split for FW is an attempt by bad players to nerf teamwork in the hopes that somehow that will result in them winning more. It's like the tonnage changes for groups in group queue 'so that I can drop with 1 or 2 casual friends'. What was the result of that?

No change. At all. They still got crushed because they were bad. It did however reduce the total number of people playing in group queue significantly as the tonnage limits are a huge pain and forced people to play meta if they were going to play group queue. It made the group queue LESS casual, because amazingly enough what it did NOT do was change the skill distribution.

We need to just wait for MW5 and let all those players leave and go play single player with unlimited ammo/heat and god mode turned on so they can pretend they're amazing in a well protected safe space.

THEN we can look at changes to FW. Until then though we're being premature. PGI has already ****** FW about as hard as they can and have given it up for dead, accepting that they failed to deliver on their promises. We don't need to ask them to ruin it a bit more for us.

Could have done without the safe space bit but all pretty much true.

[James Argent]

Dago Red, on 02 January 2018 - 02:41 AM, said:

One good commander can turn a QP match into an equally hard roll.

What do you think is going to happen when the better unit commanders start dropping into the solo fp que just so they can actually get a game?

Generally speaking, they will lead 11 other PUGs to victory (if they listen). Teamwork is OP, correct? If the 'better unit commanders' choose to remove their teams from the equation, they don't have as easy a time as if they had their teams with them. End result: 23 of 24 PUGs having a better chance of winning (11 of them on 'better unit commander's' team having a MUCH better chance) than when they were matched up all PUGgy-like against 'better unit commanders' and their 7-11 unit mates.

Conversely, imagine the fun when TWO 'better unit commanders' with opposing ideas how to do things get matched on the same team.