250 replies to this topic

[Sjorpha]

xVLFBERHxT, on 30 December 2017 - 12:17 AM, said:

So you need pugs to play (farm...)?

Actually yes, pugs are needed to complete the teams and fill in gaps between odd group sizes. This is the only reason there is any faction play matches successfully created right now. Full 12 mans are actually very rare so this is the normal situation.

Ideally both teams have at least 1 group in it of course, and imo the mm should not draw in solos until 1 group per side is found.

[The6thMessenger]

Sjorpha, on 30 December 2017 - 03:37 AM, said:

Actually yes, pugs are needed to complete the teams and fill in gaps between odd group sizes. This is the only reason there is any faction play matches successfully created right now. Full 12 mans are actually very rare so this is the normal situation.

Ideally both teams have at least 1 group in it of course, and imo the mm should not draw in solos until 1 group per side is found.

Well, i guess that's something. A 5 + 6 = 11, we need 1 more to make a 12.

If that's the case, maybe they could just borrow a random guy on the solo-queue if it takes 30 - 120 seconds of wait time. I mean, that solo guy would be surrounded by premades that are cohesive, knows what to do, and could be instructed. As opposed of 12 random pugs just pieced together waddling out there.

If there's 12 or 10 premade people, then the servers strive to piece the largest groups together first and just fill in the gaps if matchmaker takes too much time.

Of course i don't exactly know how the FP matchmaker does it. But such a system would be a step towards letting either have their fun and not get shat at.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 30 December 2017 - 03:55 AM.

[Lykaon]

Mystere, on 29 December 2017 - 07:18 PM, said:

Meh!

I'd rather crazy ... ahem, I meant "daring" ... solo players be allowed into the group queue, even if just as fillers.

Apparently, CW is now so polluted with solo-oriented Rambos thinking it is just QP with respawns, that when they get seal clubbed even by another solo-only drop, they run to the forums to cry about being "unfairly" matched against a major league baseball team.

How is this a surprise to anyone?

After all failure is never their own fault it wasn't that they (their team) failed to measure up. It's the winning team's fault!

This is exactly what happened in the past. We had a match maker that included solos and small groups of 4 or less. The match maker would always attempt to place a group of equal size on each team.

I played back then and when I was in a group the vast majority of the time the opposition team also had a group. Sometimes we won and sometimes we lost. Sometimes we won by a lot sometimes we lost by a lot.

A typical 12 v 12 match up would have been my 4 player group and 8 solos vs another 4 player group and 8 solos. This was not a rare exception it was TYPICAL for the match maker to set teams like this.

So when my 4 player group won 8 solo puggies also won. But did we ever hear about this dynamic? Nope it was only when the puggies lost that groups were ever mentioned as the cause for their loss. How easily they forget the wins they had experienced with grouped player team mates.

How they easily overlooked the majority of matches with groups assigned to each side and focused on the rare case of a group being only on one side. Did it occur to them that since group size was limited to 4 players max. then the winning team was TWO THIRDS PUG!

Even when one team was "seal clubbed" the team that did it to them was composed of two thirds solo puggies just like them most of the time.

This means that when the match maker failed to place a group on both teams (not enough groups in queue) and the side with the group won (surprise this is not a foregone conclusion) the winners were mostly solo players.

But this was so easily forgotten and replaced with heaps of confirmation bias and blame. It could not be their fault? It must have been the grouped player's fault. Easily ignoring that their own team also included a group of players that also lost that very same match.


So obviously since they got their way then of course they will try to pull the same B.S. again.

And because of the past spoon feeding of the least dedicated players we have no options to explore now but to cave in to their demands. It's not like we can go back to an older match maker model but with improved match making criteria. If groups are at all involved the confirmation bias and blame will over take facts and reason every time.

[Lupis Volk]

FallingAce, on 30 December 2017 - 01:58 AM, said:

That is not the same thing as solo/group queue.

It's the exact same thing. First units were the boogey man and were made into a scapegoat. We were vindicated when it failed.

The6thMessenger, on 30 December 2017 - 03:37 AM, said:

That's funny, if it's even a team-based game, why even be fine with single people getting in? What's up with all of this resistance to this change? Having different buckets would pit teams versus teams, not random fling that decided they just want to be bad at FP than QP for a change; they literally have to be stupid somewhere else.

Please don't tell me that it's literally just the delight in the power play.


What's up with the resistance if that's the case?

What is with solo pugs outright refusing to play as a team?

Please don't tell me it's literally about furthering a victim hood mentality or to punish a unit who has caused you such mental distress.

What's up with solo pugs refusing to engage in any sort of team work?

[PFC Carsten]

N0MAD, on 29 December 2017 - 05:35 PM, said:

After reading myriads of posts/threads on these forums for years on end about seal clubbing, unfair matches, stomps, farming etc in FP, it seems that something should really be done about it.
Pugs say "its not fair its not competitive", and units say "we dont want to seal club, we want good competitive matches, we dont want to farm".
So if units truly want competitive matches, dont want to seal club etc, why dont these units actively and in numbers petition PGI to add the Solo/small group Q?.
You big units do want a competitive arena dont you? you dont want to seal club do you? you dont want to farm pugs do you?, well the majority of pugs dont want this and a very vocal about it, so shouldn't you, the big units, want the same thing. If anything you should want it more, youre looking for good games and competition to showcase your units skills etc dont you?..
Seems that units should be the forefront of a movement/petition to fix this by having separate Q.
You do want a fair and competitive game mode right?

Yes, it's time. Coupled with a decent announcement lead and an incentivizing event to get people try once more who have been driven away by the status quo over the years. If PGI's really, REALLY afraid, they can make the split queues 8v8 in the beginning, which would in the worst case, lead to 3 games for every 2 with the current, abysmally low population. Worst case and no one coming back, it'd increase wait time by 50% max.

It also allows for (a little) more tactical gameplay on the narrow corridors called maps.
That, and stop ******* (oh, you can't write the f-word for sexual intercourse. Well, so much for free speech) loyalists time and gain.

Many people have been saying this from the beginning, but PGI, white-knighted by many a unit person on the forums, refused to listen. We all see the outcome.

Edited by PFC Carsten, 30 December 2017 - 04:10 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

N0MAD, on 30 December 2017 - 03:11 AM, said:

Why would splitting the Qs kill of the mode for group players? surely they would be happy they are finally playing other groups?, it would certainly increase the numbers of casual players as they wouldnt be farmed.
If youre saying groups would leave because they only get to play other groups the implication is they dont want to play other groups.

Other groups would leave because unless you are fielding a 12man, you will never get a match.
Especially if "small groups" were put in with PUGs. A good 4man will still rickroll PUGs, so nothing there will change in this "Solo user Q" what-so-ever. Builds will still be bad, players still won't work as a team. Nothing will change.

And waiting for mis-matched group numbers to eventually form to find a lobby will never happen. Same for PUGs. Sometimes I get into a lobby with an 8-man only to have 4 PUGs say "Thank god I finally got a lobby, I've been searching for 25mins". And we've already been searching for 15mins as it is

I'm really struggling how you cannot comprehend this outcome. Actually, I've worked out why you don't understand.

1. You have not played a since FP game since FP Season 2 kicked off some 6-8 months ago.
2. You have not played any QP since Season 2 (over 14 months ago).

So you're passing judgement, commentary on a game and mode you don't even play casually.

Or are you one of those users that hides behind an Alt the forum?

Sjorpha, on 30 December 2017 - 03:37 AM, said:

Actually yes, pugs are needed to complete the teams and fill in gaps between odd group sizes. This is the only reason there is any faction play matches successfully created right now. Full 12 mans are actually very rare so this is the normal situation.

Ideally both teams have at least 1 group in it of course, and imo the mm should not draw in solos until 1 group per side is found.

BOOM. Nailed it, as I said above.

It's what none of these people understand. I so rarely drop with a full 12 and often that search wheel is doing it's thing for 5-10mins as it is.

But then it's a whole bunch of people commenting on stuff they don't actually engage in on a regular basis and have not, for years. I mean 6th has played 188 matches, again an extremely low amount over such a long period especially when a number of those are scouting matches.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 30 December 2017 - 04:11 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

Lupis Volk, on 30 December 2017 - 04:03 AM, said:

What is with solo pugs outright refusing to play as a team?

Please don't tell me it's literally about furthering a victim hood mentality or to punish a unit who has caused you such mental distress.

What's up with solo pugs refusing to engage in any sort of team work?

I don't know myself, i try to coordinate with my team even on solo queue QP, to spearhead in my assault mech despite dying early. But not everyone are willing.

We can't change every single person's thinking, but we can change the system. Either we change it to accommodate and attract the majority to have decent matches at all, or just suck it up and live with the stink of the **** we've gotten ourselves into.

If people mass-suicide, don't complain like El Bandito did.

justcallme A S H, on 30 December 2017 - 04:10 AM, said:

BOOM. Nailed it, as I said above.

It's what none of these people understand. I so rarely drop with a full 12 and often that search wheel is doing it's thing for 5-10mins as it is.

But then it's a whole bunch of people commenting on stuff they don't actually engage in on a regular basis and have not, for years. I mean 6th has played 188 matches, again an extremely low amount over such a long period especially when a number of those are scouting matches.

Funny, i have 156 matches on Siege.

Anyways, fillers aren't really that hard to grasp. But then when i couldn't get a group drop, i just solo drop on QP, cause it's easier to drop there.

Your resistance only seems to encompass concerns to group drops than solo queue -- people would just drop fine there.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 30 December 2017 - 04:17 AM.

[PFC Carsten]

Sjorpha, on 30 December 2017 - 03:37 AM, said:

Actually yes, pugs are needed to complete the teams and fill in gaps between odd group sizes. This is the only reason there is any faction play matches successfully created right now. Full 12 mans are actually very rare so this is the normal situation.

Ideally both teams have at least 1 group in it of course, and imo the mm should not draw in solos until 1 group per side is found.

Sjorpha, on 30 December 2017 - 03:37 AM, said:

Actually yes, pugs are needed to complete the teams and fill in gaps between odd group sizes. This is the only reason there is any faction play matches successfully created right now. Full 12 mans are actually very rare so this is the normal situation.

Ideally both teams have at least 1 group in it of course, and imo the mm should not draw in solos until 1 group per side is found.

So, 3×4 (or 2×6) does not equate 12 anymore? Did Trump change that too?

[TWIAFU]

The6thMessenger, on 30 December 2017 - 03:51 AM, said:

Of course i don't exactly know how the FP matchmaker does it. But such a system would be a step towards letting either have their fun and not get shat at.

It is very simple MM.

12man vs 12man first.

No opposing 12man, then they face skirmish team (12 made up of smaller groups)

If no skirmish team they then face pugs.

So, for a 12man to face pugs, there cannot be another 12man or skirmish team available.

Since the 12man is 1% or less of total group population from last PGI metric, odds are you face a skirmish or pugs.

To not be club bait, join a group and stop being bottom of barrel in CW.

[Lupis Volk]

The6thMessenger, on 30 December 2017 - 04:11 AM, said:

I don't know myself, i try to coordinate with my team even on solo queue QP, to spearhead in my assault mech despite dying early. But not everyone are willing.

We can't change every single person's thinking, but we can change the system. Either we change it to accommodate and attract the majority to have decent matches at all, or just suck it up and live with the stink of the **** we've gotten ourselves into.

If people mass-suicide, don't complain like El Bandito did.

Then why is that the organised teams fault? Why aren't we punishing the pugs that refuse to partake in the team based gameplay.

Why attract more antisocial pugs? Why, FW gains nothing from them. Again it punishes Teams for being organised. The system doesn't need fixing it's the players....The one factor PGI can't touch.

I'll complain when it effects my gameplay along with the team and again it's anti social and rather narcissistic of them to eject and abandon the game.

Edited by Lupis Volk, 30 December 2017 - 04:24 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

Lupis Volk, on 30 December 2017 - 04:03 AM, said:

What's up with solo pugs refusing to engage in any sort of team work?

It's the fact that they don't really care that much.

And if they don't really care that much - then why do they care about being stomped if they don't care about teamwork? The two are literally mutually exclusive.

[Latorque]

TWIAFU, on 30 December 2017 - 04:13 AM, said:

It is very simple MM.

12man vs 12man first.

No opposing 12man, then they face skirmish team (12 made up of smaller groups)

If no skirmish team they then face pugs.

So, for a 12man to face pugs, there cannot be another 12man or skirmish team available.

Since the 12man is 1% or less of total group population from last PGI metric, odds are you face a skirmish or pugs.

To not be club bait, join a group and stop being bottom of barrel in CW.

Yeah, problem is i do not want the highlighted part. I can't, on top of that. This is due to a lack of time, and not wanting to be bossed around by some squeaky-voiced choleric 16-year old or some socially stunted armchair general doing his best drill sergeant impression on a thursday night.

Now, that's generalisation - i've been in 2 units, and most of those were nice guys, but i just can't and won't sacrifice my evenings for fixed training times, there's still sport and a social life. This leaves me as a paying, and i guess (?) mediocre pilot. I'd very much like to drop in FW, but will only do so if there is some fun for me (which doesn't necessarily mean a victory, i like a hard-fought defeat too).

Now an established unit certainly doesn't need me, but i guess i couldn't hurt as a filler either (even if i drop with their enemy team). Not even MC-rewards are getting me into the FW-qeue, i'm not masochistically inclined.

Which means, i neither support a good, coherent teamin victory or loss, nor am i available as a seal to club (let's be honest, there are always enough units doing just this since the dawn of MP-games and voice communication). I'm just one player less.

This results in: no mixing the queues, as long as an accessible experience for everyone is'nt achieved. And with the current gamemode of FW, i... don't really see how this could be achieved.

[N0MAD]

Lupis Volk, on 30 December 2017 - 12:58 AM, said:

So you want to punish Teams in a Team based game mode That Alerts you that your going into a game mode all about Teamwork and that you'll see organised units and organised Teams. How anti social do you have to be that Teams have to be punished for playing a team based game mode like a freaking team would?

Pugs say "hey team guys we want you to have a Q where you get to play other teams, we want you to have an arena where you can can play like minded people/teams and get the competition you deserve and crave for, should be alot of fun for you"
Team player " you are punishing us."
If people were saying "hey there are not enough teams in FP to make the mode viable (probably a truth) please stop teams playing in FP." then i would agree that teams were being punished for wanting to play team vs team. But no one is saying that.
How is giving the Team players a Q to play other teams punishing them?.

[The6thMessenger]

Lupis Volk, on 30 December 2017 - 04:18 AM, said:

Then why is that the organised teams fault?

I don't blame them, but they are a factor why we see abhorrent blue-balling responses like mass suicides, or people just not engaging in invasion at all.

I really don't want to punish or disparage them, but either some adjustments or we just need to suck up seeing messed up shits caused by frustrated players.

Lupis Volk, on 30 December 2017 - 04:18 AM, said:

Why attract more antisocial pugs? Why, FW gains nothing from them. Again it punishes Teams for being organised. The system doesn't need fixing it's the players....The one factor PGI can't touch.

To increase match quality and enjoyment -- cause being roflstomped isn't fun. If you're really in to piss-poor matches, just to have a match at all, i guess that's your choice.

Lupis Volk, on 30 December 2017 - 04:18 AM, said:

I'll complain when it effects my gameplay along with the team and again it's anti social and rather narcissistic of them.

And people complain -- and protest in the dickiest way possible -- when they became a fodder, on frustratingly bad matches.

N0MAD, on 30 December 2017 - 04:38 AM, said:

How is giving the Team players a Q to play other teams punishing them?.

Because they need the fodder to be able to drop AT-ALL.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 30 December 2017 - 04:40 AM.

[N0MAD]

The6thMessenger, on 30 December 2017 - 04:38 AM, said:

Because they need the fodder to be able to drop AT-ALL.

That cant be right, i mean look at this comment from a self confessed FP expert.

El Bandito, on 29 December 2017 - 07:55 PM, said:

Doubt it. Most of our drops are against hub groups and full units, rather than pugs. And we drop more than most.

now thats proof that there are plenty of groups to go around to make a separate viable group Q right? right?.
So if this isnt just an exaggeration then theres plenty of groups around and a pug Q will not hurt/punish the groups at all, right?

[justcallme A S H]

TWIAFU, on 30 December 2017 - 04:13 AM, said:

It is very simple MM.

12man vs 12man first.

No opposing 12man, then they face skirmish team (12 made up of smaller groups)

If no skirmish team they then face pugs.

So, for a 12man to face pugs, there cannot be another 12man or skirmish team available.

Since the 12man is 1% or less of total group population from last PGI metric, odds are you face a skirmish or pugs.

To not be club bait, join a group and stop being bottom of barrel in CW.

Look I know you keep saying this, based on Russ's post from 2015. But I tell you now that it's not like that at all. It is first come, first serve.

The system is not what it was back in 2015 under FP2.0.

I have never seen the search screen "wait" to find another 12man. We hit lobby, it puts you into a lobby if there is a team already in a lobby awaiting. Be it a 12man or not, the game does not care under the 1 bukkit system and does not attempt to match you against another 12man or otherwise.

We are often hunting out groups on purpose (or hunting us) - Only to get matched total PUG teams either side.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 30 December 2017 - 05:09 AM.

[El Bandito]

N0MAD, on 30 December 2017 - 05:03 AM, said:

now thats proof that there are plenty of groups to go around to make a separate viable group Q right? right?.
So if this isnt just an exaggeration then theres plenty of groups around and a pug Q will not hurt/punish the groups at all, right?

I never said I was against the separation. I simply said it didn't work. And it was the solo FP that became ghost town, not the group FP. And that was when there were more people playing. With current FP numbers, I doubt separation would do more good than harm. And this viewpoint is coming from someone who actually does FP frequently for the past 2 years, unlike many of these pugs who are doing it just for the rewards.

Edited by El Bandito, 30 December 2017 - 05:12 AM.

[The6thMessenger]

N0MAD, on 30 December 2017 - 05:03 AM, said:

That cant be right, i mean look at this comment from a self confessed FP expert.

now thats proof that there are plenty of groups to go around to make a separate viable group Q right? right?.
So if this isnt just an exaggeration then theres plenty of groups around and a pug Q will not hurt/punish the groups at all, right?

Those are their reason for their resistance, yet it wouldn't be an issue. I honestly don't get it either.

[Koniving]

The population COULD support it, with...

8 players per team faction play (rather than 12) OR, to take a page from my own concept based entirely on PGI's given information on their faction play... allowing teams to start before they are complete and additional players to join within a certain window of time rather than forcing everyone to wait in the lobby.

And optional 8, 12, and 16 player team quick play. o.O with mixed solo/small groups. More small groups playing in quickplay can lead to them growing bold enough to play in faction play.

>.> At least bring the latter back, I miss those days and whether in a match with a friend or playing on my own, I always felt awesome when I triumphed over the other team, knowing they'd have a similar or superior group and giving me that sense of accomplishment.

Edited by Koniving, 30 December 2017 - 05:13 AM.

[N0MAD]

Well Ash.
I see you checked out my stats.
You quite right on several comments let me address.
Yes i have had alt accounts like everyone else, is it not against the CoC to post under multiple names? i only post on this account because of that.
I tried CW back in the day( played with ARMED) but found it well underwhelming and not worthy of my time while there are so many better games around that test my skills against people of equal standing.
I have been playing again for the past couple of weeks due to the insistence of a good friend of mine, he argued that we have so much premium time/mechs that it seems a waste not to, im regretting it already such a poor game in my opinion.
But i do at intervals play on this account and another to see how this game is developing and as you see nothing in its development has tempted me to take it up on a casual or permanent basis. This really saddens me as i am a very keen MW fan and played all other MW games extensively, i ran an SJ group in multiple leagues in MW2-3-4, geez we even ran the BZ league in MW4 for a long time..
Fortunately playing other PvP games like Wows, Warthunder, Total war Arena ect has given me insights into what PvP games should be like, and this just doesnt measure up, so why play.
Having played other games allows me to compare and qualifies me to comment on the mechanics of this game.
I can tell you this, any game that throws pugs into an arena against organised groups cant be considered competitive.