423 replies to this topic

[Stingray Productions]

Love the detail, and the cockpit area, superb! But those arms! So tiny! Looks like t-rex is on battlefield now:




gotta fix those arms. WAYYY to small.

[Gas Guzzler]

Nah I like em small. Practically speaking, it's better. Don't want them to be further apart from each other. Wide is bad.

[Y E O N N E]

Koniving, on 08 January 2018 - 12:37 AM, said:

And which manual is that?

Because if you mean this one...
Is it covering well into 3150, a hundred years from now?
https://store.cataly...ttlemech-manual
Because as even covered in the footnotes, mechs start to reach 16 meters tall, which they didn't surpass 14.4 meters in until after 3080.

Doesn't matter, it's retro-active. The concept of an autocannon existing that canonically fires single rounds that do the rated damage is all you are required to acquiesce. Who are you to say that there aren't smaller manufacturers of ACs that built such a weapon in the 3010s or 3025s? You cannot know that.

Quote

In much the same, AC calibers can expand, but until the Dark Ages, there's no AC/2 that goes above 90mm, no AC/5 that goes above 120mm, no AC/10 that goes above 120mm, and no AC/20 that goes above 185mm in the IS and no UAC/20 that goes above 203mm in the Clans, and 150mm is explicitly 2 damage per shot, and 120mm is explicitly 1.67 damage per shot. (1) (2).

Hate to break it to you paly, but 150 mm doesn't tell you cartridge length, width, and propellant charge of the whole cartridge. It doesn't tell you the shape, size mass, or payload capabilities of the projectile itself.

So, nebulous reference remains nebulous.

Quote

A "single shot" autocannon is known as a Rifle.
By the very definition of the word autocannon, it cannot be a single shot weapon.
Here's an autocannon at work.

News-break part 2:

That autocannon is firing single rounds loaded one at a time into the action with a belt-feed. The contrast with BT is that ACs you are pining for are loading cassettes containing multiple rounds in them that fire in one go. If I keep my trigger depressed with MWO's AC/5, and it fires, loads, and fires on its own, it's an autocannon.

For all that text...you sure did a great job missing the fundamentals.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 08 January 2018 - 05:43 PM.

[UrbanTarget]

I dunno, it seems like we are back to "the source material did a lot of finger waving and mangling of reality to make big stompy robots and taking it all too seriously can be hazardous to your sanity"

Personally, I find it funny that people quibble about details like this while there are so many facets of gameplay, both in MWO and in TT that absolutely require suspension of disbelief.

[HammerMaster]

Sorry. Not sorry. I'm gonna side with Koniving. The best iteration of autocannons was done in MW3. Far superior. Also the source books claim time and again multiple shells (yes LBX also). What we have here is contrarians for contrarians sake. And defenders of single shot PPFLD Meta stupidity. No Ifs Ands or Buts. All because of the fact there is pinpoint issues from the start and they got rid of the Bloom Reticle we had for a very short time.

Edited by HammerMaster, 08 January 2018 - 07:04 PM.

[Ryoken]

Yeonne Greene, on 08 January 2018 - 05:37 PM, said:

...
For all that text...you sure did a great job missing the fundamentals.

And you seem to be missing that Koniving is backing up burst firing autocannons with a multitude of sources of lore material and very detailed information sources.

In contrast you come here completely empty handed and claim there might be single shot autocannon manufacturers, and we cannot disprove that.

Guess what, in the same fashion I can claim there might be some additional manufacturers right next to your claimed single shot autocannon manufacturers, that produce autocannons that fire blue yodeling triangles! You cannot know that as well!

So if you seriously want to contribute to the discussion please back up your claimed abundance of single shot autocannons by citing various sources. Surely there must be a lot...

And while you are at it, you should head over to HareBrained Schemes and tell Jordan Wiseman that he wrongly implemented autocannons into his computer game about the fictional universe he created himself. They also seem to fire streams of projectiles...

Edited by Ryoken, 09 January 2018 - 07:52 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

The whole "autocannons should be burst fire" argument is simply just a shroud for the "I want longer TTK so I'm going to use lore examples to back the way I think the game should be" argument. Its all garbage, and the fact that it is being discussed, in the Fafnir announcement thread no less, is a joke.

[William Benoldi]

Will there be a Lore Page for the Fafnir?

[Arkhangel]

Genesis23, on 08 January 2018 - 09:47 AM, said:

they have to do twice the dmg to kill a bushwacker? how did you even manage to get such an incorrect argument in the first place? they can mount much more firepower, while having the better tonnage on their engines, what more advantages do clanners need?

actually... it's because I watched it happen. repeatedly. you don't really know what the hell you're talking about until you've seen what happens to both sides. plus... honestly... if the Huntsman can already out-firepower you, why the hell would the Stormcrow being given back be a problem? it has LESS hardpoints than the Huntsman, and the hardpoints on the thing are frankly royally screwball unless you're actually dedicated to learning the mech.

plus, notably, I said a COMPETENT Bushie pilot can outtank a Huntsman, not you. the Battle of Tharkad Scout match stats back me up, Gen.

that said, we'll get a view of the actual best pilots and mechs in the game with Solaris mode. one on one, ton for ton. having that as a third option for PGI to get info from'll help a lot more with balance.

Edited by Arkhangel, 09 January 2018 - 01:31 AM.

[Audacious Aubergine]

Stingray1234, on 08 January 2018 - 04:06 PM, said:

Love the detail, and the cockpit area, superb! But those arms! So tiny! Looks like t-rex is on battlefield now: gotta fix those arms. WAYYY to small.

We need the warhorn to be the T-Rex sound from Jurassic Park

[Genesis23]

Arkhangel, on 09 January 2018 - 01:24 AM, said:

actually... it's because I watched it happen. repeatedly. you don't really know what the hell you're talking about until you've seen what happens to both sides. plus... honestly... if the Huntsman can already out-firepower you, why the hell would the Stormcrow being given back be a problem? it has LESS hardpoints than the Huntsman, and the hardpoints on the thing are frankly royally screwball unless you're actually dedicated to learning the mech.

plus, notably, I said a COMPETENT Bushie pilot can outtank a Huntsman, not you. the Battle of Tharkad Scout match stats back me up, Gen.

stormcrow is nowhere near as bad as you want to make it, or it would have never been used in the first place - or am i missing something?

you can also turn the argument completely around: if the huntsman with more hardpoints and according to you, better hardpoint locations, gets wrecked by a competent bushie pilot, why would you even want the oh-so-bad stormcrow back? hoping on living a few seconds longer?

that said, yes, a competent bushie pilot can probably outtank a huntsman, but i couldnt. not enough experience with the mech and honestly in general not really that competent with chicken walkers. you forget that not every pilot is an absolute ace who can negate the clan advantages by skill alone.

Audacious Aubergine, on 09 January 2018 - 01:58 AM, said:

We need the warhorn to be the T-Rex sound from Jurassic Park

agree, but with a bit more bass. Fafnir is a dragon, it should sound like one ^^

[Arkhangel]

well, my main point, Gen, is not every Huntsman pilot is an ace either. also, there's a big diff between "competent pilot"and "ace."

you literally just said you suck in chicken walkers, so you're not exactly qualified to really judge their strengths and weaknesses apart from the clashes you've had with them. it's a big diff to piloting them. Huntsman carry superior firepower, and have jumpjets, but the Bushie and Stormie are both faster and a lot more durable due to this. trying to facetank a Huntsman ofc is going to get your *** kicked, but in scouting, you're generally gonna try to avoid that and move to flank, which is where the Huntsman really gets screwed, as the Bushwacker's got a superior twist speed so it can keep that low-profile torso aimed at the enemy. add to that if Clanners are trying to run Streak Huntsmen they're gonna spread damage all over the Bush (which is actually a pretty common fit for Huntsmen apart from the Pakhet). the main reason why Stormcrows got taken out of scouting in the first place was Streakboating, and now that IS has a comparable Streakboater there's really no reason the poor ******* should be left out of scouting now. that and the Black Lanner's really just a small Linebacker, high speed, but not that much in the way of weaponry. it'll be nasty to those who can deal with that, but honestly'll probably get fielded far less than the Stormcrow (unless it's gather intel, maybe).

[Ovion]

Gas Guzzler, on 08 January 2018 - 07:31 PM, said:

The whole "autocannons should be burst fire" argument is simply just a shroud for the "I want longer TTK so I'm going to use lore examples to back the way I think the game should be" argument. Its all garbage, and the fact that it is being discussed, in the Fafnir announcement thread no less, is a joke.

I mean, improved TTK would be nice, but I don't think that's the issue here so much as an immersion aspect.
Just switching the autocannon to burst would be a VERY minor TTK change.

On the subject of TTK, I wholly think that DPS should be averaged over 10 or 5 seconds. Meaning an AC20 would have a DPS of 2 (at 10S) or 4 (at 5S) and an AC2 a DPS of 0.2 (at 10S), or 0.4 (at 0.5s). Depending on the weapon, you can make it fire slower or reduce the damage-per-shot to keep a regular cool down, it'd increase TTK and be a bit more lore-ish.

At that point the doubled armour would probably be about enough to compensate four our ability to actually aim at a place.

But it remains ridiculous that the 'damage rating' of a weapon is over a 'standardised engagement period' in lore.
Meaning we have an AC 27.8, AC30.1, AC40 and AC50, along with an a 26.1dmg Gauss Rifle, 7 damage machine guns, 11.4 damage medium lasers, 10.8 damage small lasers, and SRM 16's doing 32.3 damage in the 'engagement period'.

Yeonne Greene, on 08 January 2018 - 05:37 PM, said:

That autocannon is firing single rounds loaded one at a time into the action with a belt-feed. The contrast with BT is that ACs you are pining for are loading cassettes containing multiple rounds in them that fire in one go. If I keep my trigger depressed with MWO's AC/5, and it fires, loads, and fires on its own, it's an autocannon.

I think the Cassette is really just the magazine for an ammo belt more than anything.

[UrbanTarget]

I would rather worry about unrealistic "auto convergenge" of fixed weapons in torsii than how many shells does it take to get to an AC 20 rating.

Slow targeting convergence of torso weapons and you will increase TTK, reduce effectiveness of poptart ppfld *and* make are weapons (faster convergence) sexy again.

Edited by UrbanTarget, 09 January 2018 - 05:35 AM.

[Grayson Sortek]

Anunknownlurker, on 08 January 2018 - 09:26 AM, said:

@Grayson Sortek - as quirks are subject to change I am pretty sure what you ask would be neither desirable or really helpful.

To be honest, if you are buying a mech only because of its quirks you probably shouldn't be buying the mech in the first place!

I think you missed the point. I want more information, I want to know what the in-game model looks like, etc. There's no reason to keep that information from the consumer. Give us the in-game model and, given some recent snafus, some animations so that we can give feedback and help improve the product before we commit money. I'm asking for more information on something before I decide to pre-order it, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

If you want to buy sight unseen, then that's your prerogative.

[YakkSlapper]

"Fafnir, fear nothing,,,,*except EVERYONE who can aim a rubberband n bigger*

[GenJack]

This!!!!!!! It needs to be slightly wider just like this pic!

Navid A1, on 05 January 2018 - 03:06 PM, said:

Its happening!!!!


It would have been perfect if it looked like this:

[MovinTarget]

GenJack, on 09 January 2018 - 07:49 AM, said:

This!!!!!!! It needs to be slightly wider just like this pic!

Maybe what we need is a series of carnival mirrors that players can stand their mechs in front of, so they can see them shaped how they think they should be, but then drop in matches and be more logical and realistic...

That or the next hanging item needs to be a pair of beer goggles...

Edited by MovinTarget, 09 January 2018 - 08:26 AM.

[Angus McFife VI]

Koniving, on 08 January 2018 - 12:37 AM, said:

And which manual is that?

Because if you mean this one...
Is it covering well into 3150, a hundred years from now?
https://store.cataly...ttlemech-manual
Because as even covered in the footnotes, mechs start to reach 16 meters tall, which they didn't surpass 14.4 meters in until after 3080.

In much the same, AC calibers can expand, but until the Dark Ages, there's no AC/2 that goes above 90mm, no AC/5 that goes above 120mm, no AC/10 that goes above 120mm, and no AC/20 that goes above 185mm in the IS and no UAC/20 that goes above 203mm in the Clans, and 150mm is explicitly 2 damage per shot, and 120mm is explicitly 1.67 damage per shot. (1) (2).

TechManual which covers into the darkages...

Page 207, though the index says it should be on page 206.

A "single shot" autocannon is known as a Rifle.
By the very definition of the word autocannon, it cannot be a single shot weapon.
Here's an autocannon at work.


Now this isn't to say that autocannons can't fire single shots. But it isn't single shots to get full damage. A specific example is the nearly extinct Tomodzuru AC/20, at 180mm this was the largest IS AC/20 mounted on a mech prior to 3100, and the deadliest AC/20 the IS ever had until 2823, the advent of the Demolisher with its 185mm cannon. It held 5 shells per cassette/reload and 5 reloads per ton in a drum of the left torso that held two tons of ammunition. It fired in single shots for accuracy, with a single shot per trigger pull, however it still took a total of 4 shots to net 20 damage and had a maximum firing rate of 1 shot per second. A single shot is described as pretty devastating, able to tear a hole through a mech in with one such example in TRO 3025 original. A thing to remember though is unlike MWO and BT Basic tabletop where you have to get through all armor to do structure damage, in lore and advanced TT you only need to land a strong enough hit to make the damage and can split-fire your AC/20 on multiple targets (which is exactly what the Hunchback 4G does in TRO 3025 original's short story for the HBK-4G).

The Tomodzuru gradually became extinct except for in the galleries of some avid collectors and museums as the projectiles were unruly and largely impractical. (There's also the fact that only the Komiyaba Type VII chassis HBK could handle them, which eventually every remaining 4G had been converted into something else. The newly designed 'Classic' 4 series using the Crucis Type V chassis HBKs were deliberately redesigned to not be able to handle anything used on the original Komiyaba Type VII, so that Kali-Yama could basically put a tourniquet on the refit kits out there and sell their own "classic" copies of refitted old 4Gs. The refit kits of old were incompatible with all Crucis Type V chassis HBKs, really screwing with the Marian Hegemony, whom turned around with a big Eff Yoo by making refit kits for the new chassis to again build profits from refit kits and stick a finger to Kali-Yama Weapons Industries for their undesired 'reimagining' of a cult classic machine.)

So if that is what you mean, then yes. But that does not mean that a single shot delivers full damage. That would be a Mech Rifle, which is based on 21st/22nd century TANK CANNONS... and not an Autocannon, which is based on Anti-Air style auto-firing weaponry. The entire reason the military stopped using Mech Rifles is frankly, a single hard hitting shot like the 190mm Heavy Rifle (which has the range of an AC/5, does 6 damage against BAR of 10, but 9 damage against structure and a BAR [Barrier Armor Rating] of 7) had numerous problems. A gas propelled projectile of that size (even saboted) lacked the penetrating power necessary to be fully effective against "modern" standard armor. With the piercing power stunted and at the right angle, outright bouncing off mechs with virtually no damage (see "The First Mech" short story, can find a copy on the Mech Factory App for Rifles in action against a Mackie), they quickly learned that large projectiles were NOT the way to go. Instead they began to focus on smaller, faster projectiles that can be fired and land in rapid succession with just enough power to wedge and stick into the armor without the intention of actually piercing it (the "AP" part of AC "HEAP" rounds) where it then goes boom (the HE part of AC HEAP rounds).

Big shells generally can't pierce and ACs are expressly bullets (and as such cannot fire sabots and you will note that is not an alternative ammo type). There is Armor Piercing but that still fails to meet the sabot mark and something about them requires twice the space and only be able to bring half the ammo.

The Chemjet Gun manages to get around this by being chemically powered by a fluid propellant, allowing it to stick in before it went boom though just as common was lobbing it over walls and obstacles and having it land from above where mechs have minimal ability to brace against it.

How the Tomodzuru managed is actually kinda beyond me, but a combination of brute force and firing rate is probably how it got by since lets be honest... Mech Rifles could only fire once every 4 to 5 seconds... but as mentioned earlier the Tomodzuru, while only managing 4 damage per shot, had a maximum firing rate of one per second and a cassette reload delay of 2 seconds, meaning it could churn two cassettes out in 10 seconds matching the firepower of a UAC/20 (actually most ACs can match UACs; issues with barrel melting, explosive jams, etc. are why you don't push them under the rapid fire autocannon rule of TacOps). The 203mm UAC/20 as mentioned in a previous post lobs 4 shells to get 40 damage from its twin barrels at a painstakingly slow rate and yes it does do 10 damage per shell, but considering it is exclusive to the Ebon Jaguar, a mech that had to be squat low to the ground and as wide as a barge to be stable enough to handle this weapon should tell you a lot. From what I understand it doesn't even fire this weapon while walking, as similar to a Gauss totting Crucis Type V chassis Hunchback 4G from TRO 3039, it needs to brace against the risk of knocking itself over when firing in Ultra mode.

What they do in 3150+...doesn't matter so much to me. Wrong time period, I mean by then there's shields and Gauss rotary cannons (HAG) and battle armor sporting autocannons. Not to mention if we do count Dark Ages as true canon, 25 meter tall 100 ton Atlases sporting a Kitchen with 3 cooks just to keep the tub of lard of a pilot happily eating KFC during combat.

Even then, name one AC caliber going anywhere above 203mm, or at the very least a single example of an AC/5 of the 185mm caliber, and I'll take your single shot AC/5 schtick.... and then point out that they don't exist in 3030 to 3052 which are the years MW5: Mercs will take place in, so in the end... the Shadowhawk's 80mm AC/5 still should not produce 5 damage per shot with a single shot AC.

So you want to remove the extremely satisfying and effective single-shot cannons, that would only make the laser vomit meta far more effective and no one would be using AC's.

[Krakka Dakka Kobold]

So when we getting the Flea so IS can counter Machine gun spam to -some- degree?
Or at least Wasp/Stinger for 20 tonner jumpjet fun? Not to discount the Fafnir but most of the builds it 'can' do can already be achieved on a better-armored Annie. IS needs some fun mechs too, PGI!