45 replies to this topic

[visionGT4]

Clam mech comes out - gauranteed to be better ton for ton, crit for crit than an IS mech
IS mech comes out - gauranteed to be inferrior ton for ton, crit for crit compared to a clam mech

This battletech product should be relabled as Techbase Warrior Online.


Thanks for ruining the game entitled clam players

[Bombast]

I'm not sure what you're complaining about, or what you think the problem is.

Are you get complaining about general balance, asking for mixtech, or just generally upset that the mechlab exists at all?

Edited by Bombast, 05 January 2018 - 03:54 PM.

[FupDup]

Except that PGI generally doesn't alter the tech bases much, but occasionally touches a few mechs and continuously releases more.

In other words, mechs get changed a lot more than tech.

Edited by FupDup, 05 January 2018 - 04:09 PM.

[Hit the Deck]

Wrong source material for a PvP shooter game.

But PGI basically resurrected BT in video game format from the dead so I'm thankful for it.

[process]

[Lozruet Gravemind]

visionGT4, on 05 January 2018 - 03:47 PM, said:

Clam mech comes out - gauranteed to be better ton for ton, crit for crit than an IS mech
IS mech comes out - gauranteed to be inferrior ton for ton, crit for crit compared to a clam mech

This battletech product should be relabled as Techbase Warrior Online.


Thanks for ruining the game entitled clam players

Because thats how clans ALWAYS HAVE BEEN. Clans where meant to be a technologically superior force. While the IS basically backslide tech wise over the last three centuries the clans have advanced.IS forgot how to even make Double Heatsinks until about the last 50 years, meanwhile clan has been using them for 300 years, of course they are going to be lighter and smaller.

Only thing that held back the Clans in lore was that they fought using a honor system. Taught that using underhanded and sleezy tactics brought society as a whole down, which to a certain extent is true. This was the ONLY thing that allowed the IS to beat the Clans.

Put that same tech into the hands of players, both TT and Computer, and yeah no way anything IS is going to beat anything Clan. Its like putting a Knight armed with a sword against a modern day soldier with a M2 50 Caliber machine gun, one is just inferior to the other.

[Lozruet Gravemind]

visionGT4, on 05 January 2018 - 03:47 PM, said:

Clam mech comes out - gauranteed to be better ton for ton, crit for crit than an IS mech
IS mech comes out - gauranteed to be inferrior ton for ton, crit for crit compared to a clam mech

This battletech product should be relabled as Techbase Warrior Online.


Thanks for ruining the game entitled clam players

Now yes the tech imbalance is not "fair" game play wise because its naturally that way. Only way you make it fair is one of two things. 1) you gimp Clan tech to the point that it is basically the same as IS tech just with a different name. 2) you actually put in game restrictions that force honorable combat on those using Clan equipment.

MWO should have forced somthing that many people do voluntarily, when you register you should have to pic a side. Clan accounts can only use clan mechs and IS accounts can only use IS mechs. Now you are going to need other sytems besides that, as you would very likely end up with a registration problem where most of your new accounts simply registered as Clan. But the bottom line point is that without those lore restrictions to combat there is no way to make the game fair other than gimping clan till it is no longer superior to the IS counter part.

Hit the Deck, on 05 January 2018 - 03:59 PM, said:

Wrong source material for a PvP shooter game.

But PGI basically resurrected BT in video game format from the dead so I'm thankful for it.

Exactly. Clan tech was superior for a reason, it had 300 years of refinement where the IS just rediscovered how to make Double Heatsinks.

[Lozruet Gravemind]

FupDup, on 05 January 2018 - 03:51 PM, said:

Except that PGI generally doesn't alter the tech bases much, but occasionally touches a few mechs and continuously releases more.

In other words, mechs get changed a lot more than tech.

What he meant by the title isnt why does the tech get changed, as you said it doesnt. He meant why does a mech pretty much automatically fit into the good and up or bad and lower category because its Clan or IS.

EX:
Clan Mech= good
IS Mech= bad

You could release the exact same mech, weight/hardpoints/geometry/etc, for both sides and the Clan Mech is going to do much much better than the IS Mech.

[process]

Lozruet Gravemind, on 05 January 2018 - 04:43 PM, said:

You could release the exact same mech, weight/hardpoints/geometry/etc, for both sides and the Clan Mech is going to do much much better than the IS Mech.

Maybe not objectively better, but with certainly more room for error thanks in particular to the Clan XL engine.

I place the blame solely on PGI consistently failing to set design principles and implementing them competently. For instance, their translation of superior Clan damage as high potential damage via DOT mechanisms. Problem: DOT doesn't help you unless you're moving fast or the enemy is a bad shot.

Edited by process, 05 January 2018 - 04:53 PM.

[The Basilisk]

Well there is a certain tendency recognizable how Clan and IS mechs get handeled when they get implemented into the game I do not see this as a matter of techbases but rather as how the mechs are translated into the game in terms of their geometrical appearance and physical features.

This goes for nearly all Clan and IS Mechs since Resistance 2 but I think the best two examples are the MadCat MK II and the Nightstar.

The MK2 is lorewise and in former iterations of MW depicted as Mech with an flattened ovoid shaped Torso (more broade than wide) very wide bulky arms and wide and slim leggs.
Its main Problem in MW4 was its boad silhuette and prominent nose as well as the "ears".

What PGI delivered is a compact mech with minimal frontal silhuette, slim arms and leggs.
In fact so slim the frontal area is more comparable with some of the 50-55T mechs rather than other 90T mechs.

If you now compare this with the implementation of the Nightstar wich should be a lean, streamlined, round and tiny frontal silhuette design it becomes a bad joke.
PGIs Nightstar has a bloated, edged and primitive touch to it with a frontal area that surpasses even that of a Banshee.

When the MK2 got the maximum positive interpretation of its design without rendering the mech unrecognizable the Nightstar got the oposite and even as little goody those hillarious swollen bumps protuding from on each torso side that are nowhere to see in any non deviant art artwork of the mech.

And I see exactly this kind of treatment towards all mechs since the rescaling.

[El Bandito]

Great bait, mate.

[Bud Crue]

Tech base?

Faction play is such a minor part of the game now, that tech base differences and imbalance seems like quaint if not largely irrelevant issues at this point. Chassis and variant imbalance is way more of a concern now. This is a supposed competitve game that is about to get institutionalized 1v1 and 2v2 dedicated combat. If they want that to be remotely interesting -or god forbid successful- then they damn well better figure out how to make more than a handful of chassis, variants and builds "balanced". Tech balance is merely one aspect of that.

[FupDup]

Bud Crue, on 05 January 2018 - 06:26 PM, said:

...Tech balance is merely one aspect of that.

Albeit a pretty impact aspect.

[Y E O N N E]

The Basilisk, on 05 January 2018 - 05:08 PM, said:

PGIs Nightstar has a bloated, edged and primitive touch to it with a frontal area that surpasses even that of a Banshee.

Front and side profiles surpasing the Banshee, and no arm shielding.

Quote

When the MK2 got the maximum positive interpretation of its design without rendering the mech unrecognizable the Nightstar got the oposite and even as little goody those hillarious swollen bumps protuding from on each torso side that are nowhere to see in any non deviant art artwork of the mech.

And I see exactly this kind of treatment towards all mechs since the rescaling.

It's not just that. Whenever there is a new Clan 'Mech that shifts the game paradigm, and it's always a Clan 'Mech, PGI does nothing to it for months on end. When the next IS 'Mech is about to come out, and it looks like it might be able to do something remotely similar, that's when PGI decides it's time to reign in the power creep and they deliver a 'Mech that's been stealth-nerfed in some way: lack of quirks it obviously needs, inflating a hardpoint that can't realistically be used while under-inflating the ones it actually needs, not inflating at all, geometry altered from the advertisement, crappy engine caps, or making a change to equipment that has a marginal impact on the Clan version since it adjusts a non-limiting variable but really hurts the IS version since it was relying on that one variable more.

Every. Damn. Time.

Occasionally an IS 'Mech gets buffed into greatness post-launch, sometimes too far, but always pretty niche at best.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 05 January 2018 - 06:49 PM.

[sycocys]

The problem is that PGI both partly stuck to lore (with tech specs) and even moreso catered to the crowd that didn't care about game balance in the name of selling $200+ mech bundles.

[topgun505]

Op. You answered your own question in the subject title.

The mechs are irrelevant because the mechlab permits one mech to virtually become any other mech (especially the Omnis). So mechs pretty much lose their identity and thus the only thing that really matters is what form of tech it is permitted to use (is tech or clan tech).

[LordNothing]

process, on 05 January 2018 - 04:09 PM, said:

its my opinion that a player looses all credibility when they start calling clans clams.

[visionGT4]

Lozruet Gravemind, on 05 January 2018 - 04:30 PM, said:

coz lore

There is no rational reason in an online multiplayer game which people play for recreational purposes to have one side fundamentally more capable than the other.

claiming lore is a cop out which merely fuels the entitlement

[Mystere]

visionGT4, on 05 January 2018 - 03:47 PM, said:

Clam mech comes out - gauranteed to be better ton for ton, crit for crit than an IS mech
IS mech comes out - gauranteed to be inferrior ton for ton, crit for crit compared to a clam mech

This battletech product should be relabled as Techbase Warrior Online.


Thanks for ruining the game entitled clam players

I think you're in the wrong IP.

Hit the Deck, on 05 January 2018 - 03:59 PM, said:

Wrong source material for a PvP shooter an eSport game.

But PGI basically resurrected BT in video game format from the dead so I'm thankful for it.

FTFY, discounting Solaris of course.

[visionGT4]

LordNothing, on 05 January 2018 - 07:13 PM, said:

its my opinion that a player looses all credibility when they start calling clans clams.

Everything about clams lacks credibility, the whole concept is level 10 Saturday morning cartoon villain. Which is why I guess all things clam seems to be so popular with those who have a mental age of 12